Use of Comprehend Languages...

The other night, the PCs in the game I'm running came across a book written in code, using characters from three separate languages...

The party wizard, wanted to use Comprehend Languages in order to translate and thus copy the book into one language, which would then allow the party's rogue (who couldn't speak all three languages) to have a chance of actually deciphering the code within the book...

In short...

The player did not want (or expect) to use Comprehend Languages to decipher the book, he just wanted to translate the book into a single language that the rogue could read (thus giving her a better chance of deciphering it)...

I'm curious, is this a use of the Comprehend Languages spell that other DMs here would allow or not?

Oh, and in case you're wondering:

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Stay with the spell limitations

ie 10min/level
one page (250 words) minute
and literal translation

Then add
If a person is scribing then each page will likely take closer to 4 minutes.........

Literal translations
Take a few words and make colorful phrases out of them
(off the top of my head)
nightmare = full moon bleed horse

Stay with the spell limitations

He was figuring that this endeavor would take several castings...

Literal translations

Take a few words and make colorful phrases out of them

Again, he wasn't trying to decipher the code contained within the book, just translate the three separate languages it was written in, into just a single language the rogue could read so that she could use her "Decipher Script" skill (as she could not read all three languages the book used)...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

I'm curious, is this a use of the Comprehend Languages spell that other DMs here would allow or not?

This is another of those "can be troublesome / plot-breaking" spells.

Per RAW, I think it would work. I'd be inclined to let it function, since the Players don't want it for free and have even argued for a level of difficulty and necessity of Skill rolls. That kind of thing should be rewarded, and I'd tell them explicitly so.

My entirely House Rules approach to CL has been:

1) Only works on "living" languages, by tapping a "universal consciousness" ("dead" languages require higher-level spells, since presumably some extra-planar being somewhere in the multiverse might still remember the language);

2) When someone scribes something, they leave a minor "psychic imprint" of their thoughts and intents;

3) There exist "off-the-book" spells specifically designed to foil CL by making either magical or mundane text, scribed during the duration or later warded, incomprehensible to the spell;

4) It is possible to invent codes that cannot be broken with CL, often by using some type of replacement cypher wherein one person writes the original message and another person (often illiterate) encodes it with the cypher (for added protection, a third and definitely illiterate person will "draw" the final, encoded message) ... in this way the cypher does not use a "living language" in the universal unconscious that can be tapped, and the person scribing the actual, physical coded message does not understand what they are writing and thus leaves no "psychic imprint".

FWIW,

Rez

I think you should allow this use of CL if it enhances the fun of the game. Since it sounds like the PCs are supposed to decode this somehow, you might as well let them be clever and make this work out - it's not an insta-win spell since the rogue still has to decipher it.

If you think it will be more fun if CL doesn't work this way, you can say that the code relies upon the particulars of the three languages (turns of phrase, puns, etc) that are lost in translation. Just be careful that you aren't forcing the players to solve the puzzle in EXACTLY the way you want it.

In summary:
Say yes, not no.
Rule 0: Have fun.

In general I would agree with Fanguad on this, but that said I don't think the casting of this spell would be useful in this circumstance.

The code states it is using three set of characters not three languages. The separation of the characters could be necessary to figure out the code, or some characters just don't have an analogue in another language.

With out words to be literally translated here, I am not sure how the spell would help.

However, if the only alternative is to take the book to an NPC to do it for them, that isn't really fun either... do what is fun for the group.

(in your specific game, I would let them translate it... its creative and it is moves the game along)

Sean Mahoney

Very much what Sean said.

Fun first.

If they have to go to someone else to get it translated it could be a lot of not fun.

HOWEVER, it could be turned into a great plot hook. An entire side plot could develop of the PCs searching for someone to decipher the code. Make it something more than just a simple Diplomacy roll to find the sage. A whole series of Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge- Local, Arcana, History, Religion, Nobility, even Perception can be used in a series of encounters leading to the deciphering of the book.

Now, if *I* were the GM, I would encourage the PCs to go that route rather than let a simple low level spell rob the players of a great roleplaying opportunity.

Now how would I justify not letting Comprehend Languages translate it all to one language so it can be deciphered?

I would have no problem with the Characters making multiple uses of CL to translate the book into one language. They could then read the text and get a general understanding of what was written. However, the code would then be impossible to decipher from that one language.

Why would the code be impossible to decipher? Because the spell, essentially transliterates the text from one language to the next, substituting one word for another as written. "The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning." So it does not "translate."

Even if it were "translated" remember the old phrase, "lost in the translation?" There are nuances to every language that are lost when translated. Greek had how many words for Love? And yet translated into English they all become simply Love.

The code itself, to me, would simply be "lost in translation."

I would allow the spell to be used, under no circumstances would I not allow them to try. They would get a single document in one language. And then no matter how well the Rogue rolled, he would never be able to succeed. I would try to find a way to "drop a hint" that perhaps finding a sage would help.

From there I would let it lead to a series of meetings, lots of social encounters, let the PCs use LOTS of skills, to eventually lead to a sage.

The sage looks at the document, looks at their translation and giggles, then explains their error. So, now the players are clued into the reasoning behind the curtains, so to speak.

NOW, if your group does not like roleplaying, and prefers straight up hack-n-slash, then I would skip this all, give them the answers after a couple of quick rolls and be done with it then lead them straight on to the next fight.

Obviously I prefer the longer route :)

By the way... to read up on some skill uses that would make this a memorable addition to the game check out 4th Dimension's Skill Encounters- Non-Combat Challenges . I think this would make an excellent addition to this situation. I am not affiliated with them :) but do give it a perfect 5 stars (except for the yellow pages... I mean really...yellow?) lol

Thank you for the replies and advice...

I wanted to wait until my next session before I responded...

I decided not to allow this particular use of CL for pretty much the same reasons that Krome suggested; that the code itself would be "lost in translation" (among other smaller details)...

So the party will have the book deciphered by someone more knowledgeable than themselves...

Again, thank you everyone for your replies...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-