DICLAIMER: I'm not really interested in a purely min/max optimization debate. In my mind the debate is done in regards to these two classes for now.
With that out of the way I'm left wondering if there is really any point to these classes.
What I mean is is there a concept that can't be better covered through another class?
Fighters are particularly bad here. Most of their archetypes come down to "pick X weapon and specialize in it". That seems fun if you just want to build some stupidly simplistic characters with few tricks in combat and fewer still out of it. But that seems to lack more than a little bit of mechanical depth to form the foundation of a roleplaying one.
Rogues are a touch better. But the rogue suffers from the problem that pretty much any character concept you can think of for a rogue can be done better from the mechanical viewpoint of other classes. Just think of a singular concept character that you can think of and chances are you'll find an archetype from a core, base, or hybrid class that fits your needs and offers more. Often, when this is put up as a suggestion I see people reject ideas not because they feel it doesn't fit the concept but because the other class comes with extra mechanics they feel they don't want to deal with. A shame too, as I think having mechanics you don't use can actually provide a bit of depth in and of themselves.
For example consider one of the pathfinder tales books that has an inquisitor of Pharasma who staunchly refuses to use any divine magic due in part to his Rahadoumi pride and part our of spite for his coercion into a nigh eternal servitude. That makes you consider concepts like the ranger who refuses to get another animal companion after his last one died or the druid who refuses to summon animals due to the pain that it can inflict on the animal in general.
It doesn't help that the main feature of rogues is split between so many classes, many of them capable of doing the job better by dint of having support of other abilities. After all simply having Detect magic available as a spell is a step up in many ways.
So, what that leaves us with is simply having a rogue or a fighter be a class that can cover concepts both mechanically and flavor wise that other such classes can't. Sadly it seems whatever gap, if one even exists now after ACG, is essentially gone.
So that brings us to the question. Is there a character concept right now for either class not better covered in another?
I think the rogue can cover the non-magic-using investigator best, but that isn't saying much.
Well except Sleuth's get rid of extracts entirely. :/
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First off, the actual defining feature of both classes is that they're mundane. Not "versatile" or "enduring", but mundane. This is a problem, because past level 6 or so, everything is superhuman. Fighters and Rogues are stuck with abilities that are measured against some standard of "realism"; meanwhile, real classes get to say "it's MAGIC, I ain't gotta explain shit".
On top of having their core feature literally being "sucking", they have other issues.
The Rogue is trying to do the job of attacking people. Other classes who do that have either Full BAB + bonus from class abilities, or medium BAB plus at least 6 levels spellcasting and other class abilties. The Rogue has medium BAB and terrible defenses.
The Fighter is being sold as an action hero, the warrior of legends. But he isn't. He's somewhere between a hired thug/jobber on the football team, and a helmet-wearing short bus rider. When he's not stabbing things, the Fighter is literally the same as the "filth-covered dirt farmer" NPC class. He can't do the job of any action hero, modern or mythical, you would care to name.
High level play even becomes slightly awkward over it; because Steve and I are buddies, we're equals at the table, but....Steve brought a Fighter to the high level game, and a high-level Fighter is just not a player on that field, he's a tool, brought along and used by the actual characters. I mean, I'm playing a game with the NPCs, and one winning move is "putting my Fighter where he can make a Full Attack on an enemy with most defenses down", but Steve's character can't really contribute meaningfully to making that happen. And that means that I'm making decisions for Steve and his character, and it kinda sucks.
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I predict that this thread will be productive and even-toned.
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When I was thinking about what I wanted to make for my Iron Gods character, one of the leading ideas was a fighter who would eventually wind up specializing in the weird superscience weapons we would find, but I didn't know which weapons those would be. Laser pistols? Monowhips? Chainsaws? Implanted razor claws? Would it be ranged or melee? Would it allow or even encourage certain combat maneuvers, be two-handed, or perhaps finesseable? The only thing I could reasonably know in advance was that it would likely require Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and I likely wouldn't see any really good choices before about level 4.
So I was looking at a build that would be able to focus on whatever I wanted to do once I found something that I thought was worth focusing on. And although the slayer and brawler are both close, I don't either of them could handle that concept as well as the straight fighter, thanks to tons of bonus feats and the ability to retrain them at even levels.
Uh a martial master mutagen warrior is actually pretty legit.
It combines the brawlers spont feats with an extra to-hit boost via mutagen. The brawler herself can't do that.
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For Rogues, their unique archetypes are:
- Thug (improved fear conditions, quick sicken)
- Scout (free Sneak Attack on a charge, really good)
- Ninja (if you count it as an archetype, which I do, since it can easily get Scout too, it's one of the best perma-stealthers after level 10)
- Pirate (can charge in non-straight lines, I don't remember many other ways to do that)
- Sczarni Swindler (can feint on non-intelligent creatures)
Fighers:
- Rondelero Duelist (and Shielded Fighter) can effectively Flurry with a Falcata. That is easily the most damaging possibility there is.
- Lore Warden has the highest possible CMB, at +8 to everything.
- Mutation Warrior is one of the few flying martials.
- Tower Shield specialist can do a lot of things other people can't, with Tower Shields.
- Mobile Fighter and Dervish of Dawn have a pounce with a drawback, but there is honestly not that many ways to get pounce outside Barbarians and natural/unarmed weapon users.
- Two-Weapon Fighter can dual-wield Falcatas, without penalty, great for crit-fishing.
- Cads get extra Dirty Tricks on flat-footed enemies.
- Blackjackets can share teamwork feats for ages and ages.
- Cyber Soldiers are very unique, but they can't be used in that many contexts.
When I was thinking about what I wanted to make for my Iron Gods character, one of the leading ideas was a fighter who would eventually wind up specializing in the weird superscience weapons we would find, but I didn't know which weapons those would be. Laser pistols? Monowhips? Chainsaws? Implanted razor claws? Would it be ranged or melee? Would it allow or even encourage certain combat maneuvers, be two-handed, or perhaps finesseable? The only thing I could reasonably know in advance was that it would likely require Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and I likely wouldn't see any really good choices before about level 4.
So I was looking at a build that would be able to focus on whatever I wanted to do once I found something that I thought was worth focusing on. And although the slayer and brawler are both close, I don't either of them could handle that concept as well as the straight fighter, thanks to tons of bonus feats and the ability to retrain them at even levels.
CYBER SOLDIER ARCHETYPE PLOX.
I was about to come in here and talk about the Lore Warden Fighter being the best for combat maneuvers, but then I remembered the Brawler is a thing.
Uhh... Nobody except the Fighter has the feats to make an effective performance combat build? Other than that I've got nothin'.
High level play even becomes slightly awkward over it; because Steve and I are buddies...We ARE? :D
Other Steve, not you. Not since the incident.
One rogue archetype that looks interesting is the Swashbuckler rogue archetype from the APG. Not to be confused with the Swashbuckler hybrid class. This archetype gives you one martial weapon proficiency, and two combat trick talents. Basically, one martial weapons and what amounts to two combat feats at first level.
I don't think that's too shabby. Although it does mean giving up on trap sense and trap finding. Then you can focus on combat-oriented rogue talents and feats as you level up.
For Rogues, their unique archetypes are:
- Thug (improved fear conditions, quick sicken)
- Scout (free Sneak Attack on a charge, really good)
- Ninja (if you count it as an archetype, which I do, since it can easily get Scout too, it's one of the best perma-stealthers after level 10)
- Pirate (can charge in non-straight lines, I don't remember many other ways to do that)
- Sczarni Swindler (can feint on non-intelligent creatures)Fighers:
- Rondelero Duelist (and Shielded Fighter) can effectively Flurry with a Falcata. That is easily the most damaging possibility there is.
- Lore Warden has the highest possible CMB, at +8 to everything.
- Mutation Warrior is one of the few flying martials.
- Tower Shield specialist can do a lot of things other people can't, with Tower Shields.
- Mobile Fighter and Dervish of Dawn have a pounce with a drawback, but there is honestly not that many ways to get pounce outside Barbarians and natural/unarmed weapon users.
- Two-Weapon Fighter can dual-wield Falcatas, without penalty, great for crit-fishing.
- Cads get extra Dirty Tricks on flat-footed enemies.
- Blackjackets can share teamwork feats for ages and ages.
- Cyber Soldiers are very unique, but they can't be used in that many contexts.
The trouble with a lot of these is that while they are (for the most part) unique mechanics they don't necessarily carry the roleplaying the concept they're behind.
To grab an example what part of the Tower Shield specialist defines a person? I have one in my game and except for the fact that he is basically walking around with a door on one arm he's nigh indistinguishable from every other fighter out there. The concept itself could have easily worked as an urban ranger or a barbarian or even a blood rager if we were so inclined.
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You are, and one day you'll prove by having an all out slugfest in true bromance tradition. :)Ah hell, I better hit the gym to build up my weak wrists.
It's gonna be like an MMA fight.
That is, 20 seconds of flailing away, followed by thirty sweaty, grunting minutes of dry humping on the floor.
I was about to come in here and talk about the Lore Warden Fighter being the best for combat maneuvers, but then I remembered the Brawler is a thing
What is this shit. Are you gonna say that +8 to CMB to all maneuvers is worse than +5 to CMB to ONE maneuver, and a reduced +CMB bonus to other maneuvers?
Are you gonna somehow say that optimized damage on reach weapons for the Lore Warden for zone tripping/disarming/sundering builds can be done by Brawlers somehow, without sacrificing a ton of their features?
The trouble with a lot of these is that while they are (for the most part) unique mechanics they don't necessarily carry the roleplaying the concept they're behind.
To grab an example what part of the Tower Shield specialist defines a person? I have one in my game and except for the fact that he is basically walking around with a door on one arm he's nigh indistinguishable from every other fighter out there. The concept itself could have easily worked as an urban ranger or a barbarian or even a blood rager if we were so inclined.
Well, yeah. That's the whole thing about roleplaying. You can do whatever you want and you can place some value on some aspects or others for your concept.
The bloodrager guy can do the whole "I wield a door!" thing, but it's worse at it than a Tower Shield Specialist. If you really care about the door thing (like playing some sort of Braum from League of Legends), then this is gonna matter to you.
For Rogues, their unique archetypes are:
- Thug (improved fear conditions, quick sicken)
- Scout (free Sneak Attack on a charge, really good)
- Ninja (if you count it as an archetype, which I do, since it can easily get Scout too, it's one of the best perma-stealthers after level 10)
- Pirate (can charge in non-straight lines, I don't remember many other ways to do that)
- Sczarni Swindler (can feint on non-intelligent creatures)Fighers:
- Rondelero Duelist (and Shielded Fighter) can effectively Flurry with a Falcata. That is easily the most damaging possibility there is.
- Lore Warden has the highest possible CMB, at +8 to everything.
- Mutation Warrior is one of the few flying martials.
- Tower Shield specialist can do a lot of things other people can't, with Tower Shields.
- Mobile Fighter and Dervish of Dawn have a pounce with a drawback, but there is honestly not that many ways to get pounce outside Barbarians and natural/unarmed weapon users.
- Two-Weapon Fighter can dual-wield Falcatas, without penalty, great for crit-fishing.
- Cads get extra Dirty Tricks on flat-footed enemies.
- Blackjackets can share teamwork feats for ages and ages.
- Cyber Soldiers are very unique, but they can't be used in that many contexts.The trouble with a lot of these is that while they are (for the most part) unique mechanics they don't necessarily carry the roleplaying the concept they're behind.
To grab an example what part of the Tower Shield specialist defines a person? I have one in my game and except for the fact that he is basically walking around with a door on one arm he's nigh indistinguishable from every other fighter out there. The concept itself could have easily worked as an urban ranger or a barbarian or even a bloodrager if we were so inclined.
Well a Tower Shield Specialist can be good if you want to play a Roman Legionnaire.
The fighter is tricky to roleplay effectively because the class doesn't give as much to work off of so you have to do it yourself. A witch or a bloodrager has plenty of fluff to draw RP out of.
That why the fighter usually has to pull a bit of character from his build.
I played my fighter as the black sheep in his family. A big part of this was that he was a disciplined, intelligent fighter that used two weapons instead of the simpler two-handed sword. He's a showoff who likes to demonstrate his superior skill whenever possible. Before you say anything, this was before the Swashbuckler came out.
A Sword-And-Board fighter can play as the anchor for the team not just physically but emotionally. He's stable and nice. he helps others through morally difficult situations with his simple wisdom.
A Cad can play as the rough-and-tumble type that doesn't mind getting down and dirty in order to get the job done. Let the prissy wizard worry about his stupid robes, you're there to do what needs to be done. You'll kill the bad guy the Bard won't. You'll disobey the stupid church when the cleric bows his head. Let the rogue pretend he's bloody Robin Hood, you're the real criminal in the group.
Can these be done with some other class? Probably but that doesn't mean that fighter is worth nothing. He just needs extra work put into his RP.
Well a Tower Shield Specialist can be good if you want to play a Roman Legionnaire.
The fighter is tricky to roleplay effectively because the class doesn't give as much to work off of so you have to do it yourself. A witch or a bloodrager has plenty of fluff to draw RP out of.
That why the fighter usually has to pull a bit of character from his build.
I played my fighter as the black sheep in his family. A big part of this was that he was a disciplined, intelligent fighter that used two weapons instead of the simpler two-handed sword. He's a showoff who likes to demonstrate his superior skill whenever possible. Before you say anything, this was before the Swashbuckler came out.
A Sword-And-Board fighter can play as the anchor for the team not just physically but emotionally. He's stable and nice. he helps others through morally difficult situations with his simple wisdom.
A Cad can play as the rough-and-tumble type that doesn't mind getting down and dirty in order to get the job done. Let the prissy wizard worry about his stupid robes, you're there to do what needs to be done. You'll kill the bad guy the Bard won't. You'll disobey the stupid church when the cleric bows his head. Let the rogue pretend he's bloody Robin Hood, you're the real criminal in the group.
Can these be done with some other class? Probably but that doesn't mean that fighter is worth nothing. He just needs extra work put into his RP.
This is the RPG equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome.
The dangerous protagonist in the party of dull stereotypes could do his job better as a Magus. The emotional anchor could be literally any character class ever.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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For some players, mundane is a feature not a bug.
I have a friend who won't touch any form of spellcasting on any character he plays. He is fantastic at playing rogues.
I have another friend who plays a fighter when she wants something mechanically simple. Sometimes your combat options being "all I do is hit things" is all you want out of your character.
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Fighters don't depend on special abilities for their DPR. That is not much of a niche, but it still one that nobody else has. Even the slayer likely falls behind the fighter if sneak attack is not available so if you dont want "conditional" damage the fighter has a place. Even though this is a corner case, unless the barbarian has certain abilities his rage can be shutdown.
read me-->I am not advocating taking a fighter over either of the above mentioned classes. I am just answering the question that was asked. <---read me
I've played both fighters and rogues.
As levels increase, as a Fighter I worry about dying. As a rogue I worry about being useful.
"I smack it!" may not be super interesting, but it is a contribution to the team. Now a fighter can still be CC'd to useless, but that at least requires enemy caster actions. You can hard CC the rogue with things like standing in a corner, casting blur, ect. Even if you don't CC the rogue, it is not like the rogue by herself is that much of a threat.
Outside of combat there is only a finite amount of task that need doing, and generally those task are handled by one person. In combat a fighter's sword combos well with a casters magic. They add (regardless if not fighters would add better). A rogue's diplomacy and bluff combo far less with a caster's dominate person.
Sadly both fighter and rogue are some of the worst classes of their niche, but a fighter will have a far easier time enjoying himself. His contributions are overshadowed not eclipsed.
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I was about to come in here and talk about the Lore Warden Fighter being the best for combat maneuvers, but then I remembered the Brawler is a thingWhat is this s#+%. Are you gonna say that +8 to CMB to all maneuvers is worse than +5 to CMB to ONE maneuver, and a reduced +CMB bonus to other maneuvers?
Are you gonna somehow say that optimized damage on reach weapons for the Lore Warden for zone tripping/disarming/sundering builds can be done by Brawlers somehow, without sacrificing a ton of their features?
I'm saying the flexibility to pick and choose which maneuver is best for the current situation is better than the Lore Warden's CMB bonuses.
I saw a Brawler use Improved Steal to deactivate a construct by pulling out its battery gem the other day. Improved Steal! Who picks up Improved Steal? Nobody, except for the Brawler because she doesn't have to commit to it.
The lore warden can also go martial master, and have the flexibility too, and the bigger bonuses.
I was about to come in here and talk about the Lore Warden Fighter being the best for combat maneuvers, but then I remembered the Brawler is a thingWhat is this s#+%. Are you gonna say that +8 to CMB to all maneuvers is worse than +5 to CMB to ONE maneuver, and a reduced +CMB bonus to other maneuvers?
Are you gonna somehow say that optimized damage on reach weapons for the Lore Warden for zone tripping/disarming/sundering builds can be done by Brawlers somehow, without sacrificing a ton of their features?
I'm saying the flexibility to pick and choose which maneuver is best for the current situation is better than the Lore Warden's CMB bonuses.
I saw a Brawler use Improved Steal to deactivate a construct by pulling out its battery gem the other day. Improved Steal! Who picks up Improved Steal? Nobody, except for the Brawler because she doesn't have to commit to it.
Martial Master Fighters can do that to.
And you can stack that with mutagen warrior to get back the to-hit bonus you lost when trading weapon training away.
The only downside is that you actually have to have 13 int, but you benefit less from dex now, so essentially that means you get more skill points (not as much as the brawler though).
The trouble with a lot of these is that while they are (for the most part) unique mechanics they don't necessarily carry the roleplaying the concept they're behind.
To grab an example what part of the Tower Shield specialist defines a person? I have one in my game and except for the fact that he is basically walking around with a door on one arm he's nigh indistinguishable from every other fighter out there. The concept itself could have easily worked as an urban ranger or a barbarian or even a blood rager if we were so inclined.
Well, yeah. That's the whole thing about roleplaying. You can do whatever you want and you can place some value on some aspects or others for your concept.
The bloodrager guy can do the whole "I wield a door!" thing, but it's worse at it than a Tower Shield Specialist. If you really care about the door thing (like playing some sort of Braum from League of Legends), then this is gonna matter to you.
The difference though, and the point behind the argument, is that the tower shield specialist is utterly defined by the door. The door is love. The door is life.
But, that's it. It provides no other foundation by which you can anchor on other parts to the character. To me your class should back up your concept more than nothing if at all possible.
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For some players, mundane is a feature not a bug.
I have a friend who won't touch any form of spellcasting on any character he plays. He is fantastic at playing rogues.
Here's the trouble with that statement. Are you saying he's good at playing rogues the class or rogue the concept?
The reason for the question is that the concept itself is not wed to any set of mechanics. More a style of personality or or actions. Mad Martigan was a scoundrel who is unmistakably a rogue but his sword fighting skills definitely placed him in fighter territory. Moist Von Lipwig or Dodger are both characters that could easily be replicated by Experts though they fit the archetypal scoundrel to a T.
So then we have to ask ourselves. If you are good at being a rogue from a roleplaying perspective what's stopping you from using an urban ranger or a sleuth investigator or a slayer?
I have another friend who plays a fighter when she wants something mechanically simple. Sometimes your combat options being "all I do is hit things" is all you want out of your character.
Mechanically simple doesn't necessarily carry a concept.
And let's be honest here there's nothing necessarily complicated about playing a barbarian or a slayer or a ranger. They simply have more things you can do. Action by action they tend to be identical to the fighter in terms of what they do in combat. Which is to hit things. The difference is that they offer more options when hitting things won't necessarily solve the problem or when your particular flavor of violence won't cut it for this encounter.
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For some players, mundane is a feature not a bug.
I have a friend who won't touch any form of spellcasting on any character he plays. He is fantastic at playing rogues.
And for people like this, there's the Slayer, which do the same thing thematically and are much better mechanically, generally speaking.
I have another friend who plays a fighter when she wants something mechanically simple. Sometimes your combat options being "all I do is hit things" is all you want out of your character.
Barbarians and Slayers both do that better than most Fighters, IMO (though I guess Slayers vaguely care about getting Sneak Attack). As do Brawlers if you're willing to go unarmed or with something in the Close weapon group.
I generally look at a concept and see how many different ways I can pull it off. I don't see any problem with there being only 1 or 100 ways to do something. If you've found a build you like that does what you want, then play it. If not, then find another way.
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The difference though, and the point behind the argument, is that the tower shield specialist is utterly defined by the door. The door is love. The door is life.But, that's it. It provides no other foundation by which you can anchor on other parts to the character. To me your class should back up your concept more than nothing if at all possible.
what the heck is this
are you arguing that because a class mechanics kit is based on a single concept
its harder to
roleplay it?
because i could make a guy who wields a door who is a big hearted fella who wants to help others to redeem himself from past sins
or like
a guy who wields a door he uses as a surfboard to ride wicked waves
or etc.
i mean if you need roleplaying crutches thats your issue
"I want a simple character" is a valid preference.
"But you can just roleplay an interesting character" is the Stormwind Fallacy. Yes, your Fighter can be a boisterous, rough-and-tumble giant of man, colossal in mirth and melancholy...but so can any other character.
This thread is about whether there are any niches left for the short bus classes. Some Rogue archetypes have unique abilities, but those are gained at level 4 at the very latest (if you count Ninja as a separate class). Thug Rogue 1 is still a cornerstone dip for demoralize builds, for example. It's much the same with Fighter archetypes.
And then you have the complete dogs, like the Tower Shield specialist, that give you level 4 appropriate abilities way past level 10.
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Bringing up "Stormwind fallacy" is the new Godwin's Law these days. : /
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The difference though, and the point behind the argument, is that the tower shield specialist is utterly defined by the door. The door is love. The door is life.But, that's it. It provides no other foundation by which you can anchor on other parts to the character. To me your class should back up your concept more than nothing if at all possible.
what the heck is this
are you arguing that because a class mechanics kit is based on a single concept
its harder to
roleplay it?
because i could make a guy who wields a door who is a big hearted fella who wants to help others to redeem himself from past sins
or like
a guy who wields a door he uses as a surfboard to ride wicked waves
or etc.
i mean if you need roleplaying crutches thats your issue
Whoa there, back up find your punctuation keys and think about it.
You can make your character out to be literally anything you want. Anything. Your only real limitation is the GM.
You can be the scion of the over deity. Princess of all dragons. The statue of a frozen adventurer transmuted into an awakened penguin paladin. Whatever.
But, when it comes down to the actual numbers to support that character , bring them into existence and achieve something with actual depth and longevity in terms of roleplay potential I would hope your character can match the vision with the math.
That is not a crutch. If anything that's harder to do and actually quite fun to do in and of itself as you resolve the question of roleplaying and mechanics.
And, funny thing, both those concepts aren't even made better by the archetype proposed. You made a door wielder with a heart of gold. But, are you going to stick to tower shield specialist as you go through his story? After all a tower shield isn't exactly a difficult thing to get proficient in. You may decide that his past life as a Slayer better represents the dark past and that his future is best represented as a paladin.
The question being asked, and the thoughts being put forward is whether or not you have to default to the generic fighter and rogue classes (Archetypes included) to match your concept. The question isn't whether or not you can do the concepts under those classes. That's unquestionable. The question is whether or not it's even necessary anymore.
And it's an important question to consider I believe when you consider the literal mountain of material out there now.
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I want a skill monkey that can advance in 10 skills at once and NOT suck in it's other abilities.
Rogues can put all their points into DEX and INT to basically have 10-12 skills, and be good at most of the Rogue abilities.
No other class can really do that. They normally don't get the skill points.
Bards can't, they will suck at being bards (aka, CHA will be a dump stat instead).
The closest is a Wizard. The problem with the Wizard is that they have low HP typically, which means when hit by a trap...there is a FAR greater chance for them to die. Further, the most they can hope for is 10 Skill points, which could equal the average Rogue...but the Wizard won't be as good with the DEX skills, at least not without the help of a buffer (which would make a Rogue which is better at the DEX skills, even better).
Short term, the Wizard can buff up their abilities with magic once they get to be around 3rd to 5th level, but if you run a REAL dungeon with a REAL day (at least 8-12 hours)...where you'd actually NEED a Rogue (so none of this one or two trap stuff, the dungeon is LOADED with traps and locks and other things), they run out of these types of spells within the first hour or two...and then...they are back at the square where a Rogue with a high Dex is better at many of the skills.
It's not the specific type of rogue, but the all around Rogue that has so many skills and specifically excel at the DEX ones, that most classes and archtypes can't replicate.
And when you DO try to do that...their main abilities (why they are even a class) suffer so badly, it makes them even less effective than a Rogue overall with an extended day.
Now, when you included classes outside the CRB, the only REAL one I think is great, is the Ninja. That...I admit, may be better than the Rogue in just about every way, since their focus goes so closely to what a Rogues would be.
In that case, it's whether the DM allows Ninja's in their campaign or not.
Ninja's being in the campaign can have their own baggage if not in an Oriental setting...
Then again, Hellknights, Druids, and others can have their baggage in settings which aren't their own as well.
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The difference though, and the point behind the argument, is that the tower shield specialist is utterly defined by the door. The door is love. The door is life.But, that's it. It provides no other foundation by which you can anchor on other parts to the character. To me your class should back up your concept more than nothing if at all possible.
what the heck is this
are you arguing that because a class mechanics kit is based on a single concept
its harder to
roleplay it?
because i could make a guy who wields a door who is a big hearted fella who wants to help others to redeem himself from past sins
or like
a guy who wields a door he uses as a surfboard to ride wicked waves
or etc.
i mean if you need roleplaying crutches thats your issue
Whoa there, back up find your punctuation keys and think about it.
You can make your character out to be literally anything you want. Anything. Your only real limitation is the GM.
You can be the scion of the over deity. Princess of all dragons. The statue of a frozen adventurer transmuted into an awakened penguin paladin. Whatever.
But, when it comes down to the actual numbers to support that character , bring them into existence and achieve something with actual depth and longevity in terms of roleplay potential I would hope your character can match the vision with the math.
That is not a crutch. If anything that's harder to do and actually quite fun to do in and of itself as you resolve the question of roleplaying and mechanics.
And, funny thing, both those concepts aren't even made better by the archetype proposed. You made a door wielder with a heart of gold. But, are you going to stick to tower shield specialist as you go through his story? After all a tower shield isn't exactly a difficult thing to get proficient in. You may decide that his past life as a Slayer better represents the dark past and that his future is best represented as a paladin....
but thats just
what you want it to besure, one class uses more evocative terms than the other
but thats only a problem if you cant think of the flavor yourself
i love the tower shield specialist
i have a monkey goblin tower shield specialist that i love with all my heart
hes one of my favorite PCs
would play him forever
he fulfills all my fantasies
if the fighter fails at evocating something for you, then play another class? thats what they are for
also i loved the part where you criticized the form of my response rather than its contents thumbs up
I want a skill monkey that can advance in 10 skills at once and NOT suck in it's other abilities.
Uh... Alchemists/Investigators? 6+Int and Int is your primary stat.
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also i loved the part where you criticized the form of my response rather than its contents thumbs up
Your haiku-like writing is super annoying. It's a valid thing to criticize. And he didn't just criticize your form, he also criticized the content.
I want a skill monkey that can advance in 10 skills at once and NOT suck in it's other abilities.
Rogues can put all their points into DEX and INT to basically have 10-12 skills, and be good at most of the Rogue abilities.
No other class can really do that. They normally don't get the skill points.
If you try to cover 10-12 skills with your Rogue, you WILL be mediocre at many of them. Could you name for us the skills you think your Rogue should have?
Bards can't, they will suck at being bards (aka, CHA will be a dump stat instead).
I don't think you know Bards. Or Rangers. And you certainly don't know Alchemists.
...but if you run a REAL dungeon with a REAL day (at least 8-12 hours)...where you'd actually NEED a Rogue (so none of this one or two trap stuff, the dungeon is LOADED with traps and locks and other things), they run out of these types of spells within the first hour or two...and then...they are back at the square where a Rogue with a high Dex is better at many of the skills.
Your neckbeard doesn't impress me, i used to DM with the red box edition. Even back then, the giant dungeons had places to rest and recover spells.
But that's just what you want it to be.
Sure, one class uses more evocative terms than the other but thats only a problem if you cant think of the flavor yourself.I love the tower shield specialist. I have a monkey goblin tower shield specialist that i love with all my heart.
He's one of my favorite PCs. I would play him forever as he fulfills all my fantasies.
If the fighter fails at evoking something for you, than play another class? That's what they are for.
Glad you love your character.
But, is there another class or combination of classes that would do the concept better justice? If not then why?
That's what's being asked. The answer illustrates whether or not there's still a place for the classes in question.
The answer is probably not. It's because they are so modular. A fighter is a bunch abilities you don't care about and bonus feats, a rogue is a bunch of bonus skill points and some pick-and-choose talents. It is their base nature to be customizable, easily stacking with anything. Therefore any attempt to specialize and give them a specific path instead of generic abilities going to be losing that versatile modularity in favor of something you could just take another class to get.
I think the modularity is a rather good strength if you want to cover concepts not yet covered. The trouble is, as time has gone on and the amount of classes has grown to over double the original count not including archetypes for everyone, the amount of concepts that a fighter can cover that someone else can't is slowly shrinking.
I seriously doubt there is a "rogue" or "fighter" concept that those classes can't cover. The trouble is wondering whether there are concepts that only they can cover not just mechanics but a combination of the two.
Glad you love your character.But, is there another class or combination of classes that would do the concept better justice? If not then why?
That's what's being asked. The answer illustrates whether or not there's still a place for the classes in question.
I don't know. If it was another class, then it wouldn't be my character, would it?
As a TSS, my dude could remove the penalty to his attacks, move at full speed in heavy armor while enjoying high Dexterity, had incredible Reflex saving throws too, all the while shield bashing on dudes for huge damage.
Plus, he could use his shield to deflect touch attacks which felt awesome, and change shield direction as an immediate action too.
Is there any class that is stronger? Maybe. Not important.
Is there any class that fits what I wanted? No, because what I wanted was a TSS because I saw the archetype and it evoked something in me.
I'm not arguing Fighters are strong. They aren't particularly, require a ton of system mastery, and they have criminally low skills for a mundane class.
But can it evoke something cool?
You bet your f&&%ing ass.
there is only one concept a fighter can really do and it is a highly limiting one that isn't very fun, the super strong weapon savant with no social skills or book smarts who can really murder an inanimate straw dummy with their signature weapon, but isn't very good against opponents that aren't inanimate straw dummies and a lot weaker without their signature weapon
in other words, they are essentially the 3.5 Kensai Prestige Class, minus the free ancestral weapon feat that gave you a free scaling magic weapon that was only magic for you
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I want a skill monkey that can advance in 10 skills at once and NOT suck in it's other abilities.
Rogues can put all their points into DEX and INT to basically have 10-12 skills, and be good at most of the Rogue abilities.
No other class can really do that. They normally don't get the skill points.
Bards can't, they will suck at being bards (aka, CHA will be a dump stat instead).
Uh...Investigators leap immediately to mind. They're actually pretty much required to have Int 16+, with an 18 being very reasonable. That's 10-12 skills if you add in FC and/or Human bonuses. And they'll, with minimal investment, be at +3.5 or 4.5 on all of them over a Rogue due to adding Inspiration (potentially much more if Half-Elven). And be vastly better than a Rogue at combat and Will Saves to boot. And that leaves aside Empiricist, which adds potentially huge bonuses by making a host of skills Int-based.
Slayers have a slightly harder time, but would you rather have 11 skills, or 9, but a +2-5 bonus on 7 of them (plus all Knowledges) most of the time? Because Studied Target gives you such a bonus. Frankly, I'd rather be really good at 7-9 skills than mediocre at 11. And then there's how much better a Slayer with identical stats winds up being at combat and Fort Saves...
Even Bards...you can ditch Wis for some basic Cha and still be no worse off on Saves than a Rogue (and actually be better as you go up in level), while buying Int and Dex sky-high. You can make do with a 12-14 Cha (plus items) easily as a buffing-Bard, after all. And, by 6th level, the skill point advantage is more than compensated for (due to Versatile Performance + Bardic Knowledge).
And that's ignoring the Inquisitor, the Ranger, and all the Archetypes that can also duplicate what a Rogue can do skill-wise (or at least come really close) while being much more effective in other areas. Really, a Rogue no longer has room to call itself a real skill class given how much better many other Classes are at what it does in the way of skills (particularly in the way of being actually good at the skills they have, rather than just having a bunch of them.).
but if you run a REAL dungeon with a REAL day (at least 8-12 hours)...where you'd actually NEED a Rogue (so none of this one or two trap stuff, the dungeon is LOADED with traps and locks and other things), they run out of these types of spells within the first hour or two...and then...they are back at the square where a Rogue with a high Dex is better at many of the skills.
An Investigator built to do these Rogue skills can be better than the Rogue at them all day long, even with lower Dex (which, actually, might not be the case). He also has spells (well, extracts)...but he doesn't need them to be better than the Rogue at skills. Or combat for that matter.
A Slayer doesn't even have the spells, and can still be as good or better than the rogue at many skills all day long.
Both also have Trapfinding, for the record (well, okay, the Slayer needs to buy it...but he certainly can have it).