Overall, the Swashbuckler doesn't feel overpowered or anything to me. One thing that I think needs fixed is that you can technically use a morningstar or a "mere club" along with the Swashbuckler's Finesse ability (since they are both bludgeoning and piercing) and i don't think that was intended. I don't think it's game-breaking or anything, just feels silly.
I am re-writing a few of the NPCs in the game using the new classes to test those out as well. One thing that I've already determined is that the Warpriest definitely does need some boosts to its effectiveness, as shown in the spoiler below.
When I rebuilt Sandara Quinn from Cleric of Besmara 3 to Warpriest of Besmara 3, she became unquestionably worse overall, with losing 2nd level spells and domain spells and reducing the number of times per day she can use her Blessing/Domain powers (with the Domains, she could use each of them 3 + Wis times per day, with the Blessings the two powers share 3 + Wis uses per day) to only gain a single extra feat (which I used to give her Bodyguard).
I'll update this thread as my players interact with more of the NPCs, and to give more info on the Swashbuckler's progression through the game.
I agree wholeheartedly with your concept of the Warpriest. Hopefully this is what we see with the new playtest PDF.
Valkyn Highwind wrote:
You may also want to consider switching around the stats of the two Arcanist NPCs, since both of them have crappy Charisma, and it's more important now than it was before. :)
Prince of Knives wrote:
Why is it so insulting and derogatory? I love that game... ;)
It would appear that I was misremembering about the Oracle ability to bypass fire resistance... can't find it now that I was looking either. I'll keep searching to figure out what ability I was actually thinking of... LOL.
I also was misremembering the Horse Master feat, thinking it was the ability that just gives you a straight-up +1 to your level when determining the abilities of your mount (which actually CAN go above your character level). You're right, the Horse Master feat is better if you can meet the pre-reqs.
My PFS characters:
Alden Helpinghand, halfling with pet wolf, focusing on using aid another and other abilities to boost his adjacent allies' AC
Current: Cavalier (Honor Guard/Strategist) 4, Fighter 2
Rebuilt: Hunter 6
This build should work very similarly to how it does now, but with added spellcasting, which is pretty awesome.
Sadly, all of my other characters make use of specific abilities from specific archetypes that can't be switched out at the moment for ACG classes.
I think Cranky was saying that Wisdom-based casting would allow for Munchkin-y brokenness because of Mystic Theurge builds, and I agree. Yes, Charisma is also an arcane stat, but it has been since 3.5. Making Wisdom-based Arcane casting would then suggest that we should also have Int-based divine casting. I just think they'll stick with Int for arcane, Wis for divine, and Charisma for both.
For the Alchemist, I think you're missing your Skill Focus feat from being half-elf. Otherwise it looks pretty good. I like that you used the Dual Minded trait to add to the flavor of his two personalities, well done there.
While I totallky understand why you're using the nodachi (for Eastern-style flavor) you're really stabbing yourself in the foot if you don't use a lance. The double damage while charging mounted is just too good to pass up. Other than that, this build looks pretty solid. I see you did go Boon Companion here, so I'm curious why you didn't on the Cavalier build earlier.
My suggestion here is to flavor the character as a Cleric of Asmodeus, but actually be an Oracle of Flame. This is because the revelations you can pick will allow you to ignore fire immunity on creatures, and you can role-play it as Asmodeus' flames being hotter than those of the plane of fire, burning away the filth of the unrighteous. :)
You've got some great builds here!
The first thing I've seen that I would suggest you change is in your Aasimar Lawful-Stupid Cavalier. I would strongly suggest you take your first level in Cavalier so that you get your mount early, and as soon as you take your first level of any other class, pick up Boon Companion (which will replace Horse Lord in your build) since it will give you a full-level companion up until you start taking levels of Battle Herald. The extra hit dice for your companion is more than worth it.
That's an interesting question, for sure. With different "styles" of spellcasting, you can't just say that they stack. Then again, the Lamia Matriarch doesn't actually HAVE levels of Sorcerer, it just casts as a Sorcerer, so realistically you'd just have a second pool of spellcasting, as if you multiclassed. I would say you should be able to take Arcanist or Bloodrager levels, but it would generally be less optimal than simply taking more Sorcerer levels or some Barbarian levels instead.
This is a GREAT direction to take the class! Kudos to the designers and to all of us fans that helped nudge them in the right direction!
I just want to take a second to say that THIS RIGHT HERE is why I stick by Paizo. They really understand and believe in their fans, as much as we moan and whine about their choices sometimes. The Paizo team's forward thinking and responsiveness to fan criticisms and praise are what make this a company, and Pathfinder a system, that will last a long time. This is reflected in both the RPG and in the Adventure Card Game that I've come to love so much.
Seriously, thank you guys for being so open with your creative process and so generally awesome!
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you guys also playtesting these classes in your games? I'd be very curious to see the build that the Lead Designer uses. :)
I really doubt Paizo would be up for making that type of customization to the BAB progression for any reason. More likely, they could make an ability that said that they qualify for feats with +1 BAB even before they have it.
Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Except you can't two-weapon fight with a weapon in two hands, whereas if you had rocket punch you could two-weapon fight it. :-P
The problem with a "rocket punch" idea is that you can still rocket punch after moving (since it would be a standard action) or as part of a charge, etc. With flurry, they're letting you get a bunch of damage from a bunch of punches if you can set it up to where you're taking a full-attack action. The "rocket punch" idea just doesn't really work with 3.5-style gameplay because of that.
Oh man! You're so right! Okay, I'm thinking now that there should be an option for using your Blood Pool to alter the effects of magic items in some way. Either power them up using your innate magic, or stick them together, or SOMETHING! What if you could meld two wands together, then cast them both as a standard action but use twice as many charges on each?
Soo... many... ideas...
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I agree with the sentiments of yourself and others on Blood Focus... I feel that the class would be significantly improved mechanically if bloodline schools were written specifically for it, like the Bloodrager's bloodlines (which I think should be called something slightly different to set them apart from Sorcerer bloodlines, by the way). I'm thinking some more unique abilities that can be used by expending a point of blood focus (which should probably be 3 + Int times per day), with new options at something like 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, and a cool capstone at 20th. Here's an example of the type of thing I'm thinking:
Transmuter Bloodline School:
Your bloodline may have included several powerful mages who focused their study on transmutation spells, or perhaps you had a lycanthropic ancestor, long forgotten by time. Either way, your magic is more powerful when you use it to manipulate objects and creatures around you.
Bonus spells (added to your spell list): shillelagh (2nd), tree shape (4th), XXX (6th), XXX (8th), control winds (10th), ironwood (12th), changestaff (14th), XXX (16th) polar midnight (18th) [I couldn't come up with spells to fill all of these spots in the short time before I head to work, but the idea here is to add transmutation spells that don't appear on the Sorc/Wiz spell list, expanding your options into those that would normally be held for Druids or Clerics, etc.]
Transmuter's Blood: At first level, you can spend one point of blood focus as a swift action to increase the DC of a transmutation spell by 1, or to double the duration of a transmutation spell that affects you. If the spell also affects others, the duration is not increased for them.
The cool thing with this is that you could then start publishing focused bloodline schools based on the focused Wizard schools that have already been published, and you could make Thassilonian variants and Elemental School variants, etc. This is an opportunity to give the class something really special and unique, as opposed to rehashing the Sorcerer bloodlines mechanic.
What does everyone think of this?
Alright, so I've taken some time to go over the Brawler and thought I'd share my opinions so far.
-Overall, I really like the Brawler. Like others, I think this will replace the Monk in many people's minds, which is just fine by me. The Monk will still have a place for those who want to do the real mystic-type character, but for straight martial arts and general beat-em-up, this will take the cake.
-Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Simple weapons are included here, which I think works just fine. Note that the dagger doesn't need to be specifically listed, since it's a simple weapon. I would consider adding the knuckle axe from Ultimate Combat to the list, since it's thematic for the unarmed-type guy.
-Martial Mastery: This is the ability that I'm most worried about, mostly because this doesn't require any mental ability score at all, and that means that the Brawler can go totally Strength-focused and drop all his mental scores to essentially zero if he really wanted to. Currently, the only reason not to have a 7 in Int, Wis, and Cha is to qualify for some of the combat feats, like Combat Expertise and Rapid Grappler, and even for those all you need is Int 13 forever. I would recommend that the uses per day of this ability by keyed off of either Wisdom or (my preference) Intelligence, so it would change to something like this: "She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)." You could also have a feat called "Extra Martial Mastery" that would give you two more uses per day. This would give a player a reason not to dump all mental stats and boost Strength through the roof, and would also require them to use some of their feats to increase the number of uses if they want.
I also worry that this ability is going to create incredibly complex character sheets at the table, with a Brawler player having essentially every Combat feat at her disposal at any time. "Hold on, let me look up this feat and see if I want to know it right now." seems like a new common thing. Now, I'll admit that this probably isn't any more complicated than a Cleric or Druid in general because of their spellcasting, but the difference is they have a spell list that they prepare at the beginning of the day and can't change, so there's less on-the-fly stuff. I would suggest here that the Brawler have a relatively small list of feats that he can choose to switch out on the fly, perhaps equal to 3 + his Int bonus? Then at each new level, they could re-train as many of these Combat feats as they want. This would reduce the number of feats that a player may have to look up at a given table, since they'll have their list of "known" feats that they can switch between.
-Unarmed Strike: This is perfect, and I'm glad to see Jason already fixed the issue with the damage progression.
-Maneuver Training: This is a great ability, and will fit very well with the Martial Mastery ability, allowing you to boost your tripping ability in general while saving Greater Trip to be "learned" as needed, etc.
-AC Bonus: Makes sense, though this could be another place where capping based on Int is a possibility; "The Dodge bonus from this ability cannot exceed the Brawler's Intelligence modifier (minimum 1)."
-Brawler Strike: This one has me on the fence, since I always thought of the monk's ability to bypass damage reduction as an extension of his ki, and the Brawler doesn't get ki. However, from a power standpoint, it's essential that your character can bypass damage reduction, so I think it's a necessary evil.
-Knockout: Great ability, very thematic, I love it.
-Awesome Blow: It's been hashed out already, it's too weak, and Jason already said they'll probably be replacing it.
Final thoughts: I think that overall, the Brawler was well-written. The biggest thing I think it needs is reliance on one of the mental attributes for his more Monk-esque abilities. Other than that, this one will be a favorite of PFS players for sure.
My group of friends were wondering if we could farm feats or if instead of feats we could get a boon instead ?
If you replay the same scenario, you don't get the scenario rewards for it. You can play them again to try to find boons you like, but you can't get the feat or loot from a scenario (or adventure, or adventure path) more than once.
It has been verified by Mike that the characters from both adventure paths will be compatible with either.
So with the returning classes (Bard, Fighter, Rogue, and Druid) will they be the same as the ones in RotRL or will they have new mechanics so that the ones from the original set won't be duplicated?
I'm expecting different mechanics because Mike has posted before that they were planning to have different versions of Valeros in different base sets if they were able to make more base sets. We'll find out in December when the playtest materials go out :)
I really doubt there will be a ton of duplicate cards, because the first part of skull and shackles happens almost entirely at sea, and you are just gonna have different equipment on the ship. And all of the monsters are going to be completely different as well. I'm lucky enough to be part of the closed playtest, so i will let you know next month when my playtest cards come in whether there are many duplicates.
Robert Little wrote:
My question is whether the characters from either set be usable in the other - I'm assuming so, but not certain.
Well, they list 4 new classes in the base set (Magus, Oracle, Gunslinger, and Swashbuckler) and 3 new classes in the 6-player expansion (Alchemist, Warpriest, Witch) so I would assume there will be new versions of 4 of the current iconics in there. Given that Valeros is shown fighting pirates on the picture, I'm guessing he'll be one of them. Given Seoni's popularity as a character, she'll probably also likely be one of them.
From the Guide to PFS play (version 5.0):
Under "Replaying Scenarios":
"You cannot receive more than 1 player Chronicle and 1 GM
"No character may ever have two of the same Chronicle
Under "Convention, Holiday, and Quest Boons":
"You may not assign multiple copies of a boon to the same
Pretty cut and dry.
I actually disagree with Morphling... the animal companion class feature is the class feature of a druid, which is granted by a whole bunch of different archetypes, bloodlines, mysteries and feats at this point. It's referring to the class feature because that's how it's always referred to... based on your "effective druid level". So, I would say that Animal Ally does grant you the druid's animal companion class feature, and so would qualify you for the prestige class.
I do agree that you need to pick from the new list of animals given, as opposed to keeping something like a snake instead. The list of possible animals for the Steed class feature replaces the normal list of creatures that you can have as an animal companion.
No, to take the first level of a Prestige class, you have to already have the prerequisites at the level before that. If you ever lose any of those prerequisites for some reason, you also lose the ability to lose all of those class feature gained from the Prestige class.
I don't really understand why this thread was started. You're angry because a dev said that a rule is a rule? Does it bother you that you've been house-ruling or something? I mean, wealth by level only matters if the GM says it matters... so what's the problem here?
Well, given that Blog posts are generally put up on Wednesdays, there's a decent chance it'll be posted tomorrow. :)
Don't forget Monkey Goblin! And Triaxian! And Android!!
Some of these races are extremely overpowered as PC races, obviously (Centaur, Drider, Ogre, etc.)
I also wouldn't allow Kasatha without a super good reason, only because they have four arms and the rules on a player character having four arms are VERY dodgy.
The Gathlain are fey that have a natural fly speed, so I might require the PC to "learn" to use their wings during the first few levels, since the unwritten rule is to not give a PC the ability to fly until 4th-5th level.
I absolutely love the Ghoran only because they're PLANTS! A plant PC is just awesome, but they're still probably a bit OP for a party full of humans and elves.
Both Wyrwoods and Androids are constructs, though Androids are LIVING constructs so they're treated more like humanoids most of the time. Both would be super fun to RP.
You can never apply two of the same boon to one character, period.
It's in the just-released-last-week Blood of the Moon Player Companion. I actually have all of the information from that book ready to be pushed live on the d20pfsrd.com site but am waiting until at least this weekend to do so, to encourage people to go buy the PDF first. :)
Definitely DEFINITELY this! My Sorcerer bloodline guide hasn't had any updates in MONTHS! :-D
I agree that #2 is the correct answer. What can be done about it? The only thing I can think of that would fix this (and never have it be a problem again) is if there was a quick FAQ/Errata about the Druid's Animal Companion class feature that says "The effective Druid level for an Animal Companion can not be increased beyond your character level by any means." Since animal companions always reference back to Druid level, this would fix the problem.
Patrick Renie wrote:
Oh man, Patrick, you have GOT to post whatever you guys came up with for the Lycanthrope bloodline. Please. Do it. I want to see if it's anything like what I had come up with. :)
I think I'm going to have to stop reading this thread now because the OP seems to be ignoring the rational arguments that the rest of us are making, instead now arguing about the way in which arguments are being made. That's too meta for me, guys. KTHXBAI.
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
I'd like to point out that just two or three posts up you told me that "Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation". That was you trying to use (flawed) logic to tell me that I was required to concede my point. Don't complain about someone else trying to do the same thing. That's hypocritical. If you think these interpretations are "subjective and off the cuff" then why are you even part of the discussion? You should just play the way you want. Those of us who want to know what the CORRECT interpretation for the rules is, for reasons such as PFS play, for example, do not consider these things to be "subjective" OR "off the cuff".
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
Having a more powerful animal companion does not make an elf lunar oracle a "better druid than a druid could ever dream to be". That's a ridiculous thing to say. The lunar oracle can't cast druid spells, can't prepare any spell on her spell list, can't make use of Wild Shape, can't use Trackless Step, etc. These are all things that a druid can do.
The animal companion class feature is just ONE class feature of a druid, and there are several other classes that can get full-progression animal companions at this point anyway (Sylvan Sorcerer or Ranger plus the Boon Companion feat, for example. Hell, look at the Summoner!).
You're really making it sound like the only thing that makes a Druid a Druid is having an animal companion. That's fallacious. Is this a powerful option for a Lunar Oracle? Absolutely. But it's a valid option.
Well put, Jiggy.
I would argue that all of the things that you listed there are valid uses of this favored class bonus, so the argument that there needs to be an equivalent FCB for the main class from which the ability came is invalid.
I really like this book, but I feel like Paizo missed a golden opportunity to add a new Sorcerer Bloodline (there haven't been any new ones in a VERY long time now): a Lycanthropic bloodline would have made so much sense to put in this book as an option for skinwalker Sorcerers (and other Sorcerers with less lycanthrope heritage). I'm in the process of writing one up, but I would prefer to have seen one from Paizo so that more players would actually use it in games.
Overall, though, this book rocks, and I look forward to getting a PFS boon to play a skinwalker!