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Mandraivus the Lost

Wraithcannon's page

FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 251 posts (267 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Still need stats for the "Staff of the Master" for the schools other than Necromancy.

Male Human City Guard 9th lvl

How we coming on them there Reign of Winter maps?

Has there been any work on a set of rules to generate creatures with the "Troop" subtype using different small or medium sized creatures as the base?

I wanted to generate a troop of Charau-ka but have no idea on how to go about doing that.

Has there been any work on a set of rules to generate creatures with the "Troop" subtype using different small or medium sized creatures as the base?

I wanted to generate a troop of Charau-ka but have no idea on how to go about doing that.


The link that Micheal pointed out could use some updating.

Is there any way RAW to create undead using the various animate and create undead spells that have the Advanced template?

If not, what would your suggestion on how to accomplish that be?

I understand RAW this is not covered, and some of you have suggested alternative rules. That's kind of what I'm looking for, what people think of the idea.

Oh and this..

SquidSPECIAL ABILITIES Ink Cloud (Ex) A squid can emit a 5-foot-radius cloud of ink once per minute as a free action while underwater. This cloud provides total concealment. The ink persists for 1 minute.

Lincoln Hills wrote:

I give the idea full points for ingenuity and would probably allow it, but not in the crummy little clay vials that ink regularly comes in. It'd just come oozing out. A squeezable bladder would get the stuff roiling around enough to provide cover, I suppose.

Happily, ink is already expensive enough that we don't need to worry about the PCs getting 'too much' out of a super-cheap item.

Crummy little clay vials that you can crush in your gauntlet-ed hand or across your chest, thereby releasing all the ink at once, you mean?

So the party was fighting a huge underwater monster the other day and we were really taking a pounding from it's AoOp's and the fact that it had reach.

Normally one of my favorite tactics to mitigate reach is a smokestick, but that obviously wont work underwater. So I thought to myself, what would?

The answer of course lies with the humble squid, that can shoot out cloud of ink that provides basically the same benefit, and lasts the same amount of time.

So why not put a standard vial of ink to the same use? It costs 8gp in UE (a little less than half the price of the smokestick) and would only be able to provide this additional use underwater.

What do you guys think? Would you let a player get a 5ft radius cloud of ink that lasts a minute out of a single vial of ink? Or do you think we need to make up a whole new piece of equipment to fulfill this task?

I wonder if he can somehow shoehorn in an exploding fusion engine or two....... :P

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

We definitely did pick up many of the more awesome pieces from relevant APs—if we were happy with the look of this priest or that monster I didn't think it made sense to change it.

As a data point, though, we ordered more than 250 new pieces of art for this book.

Just think, a few less pieces of that nice pretty art and we could have had the custom summon rules that every 5th post seems to be upset that weren't included.


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It's not the missing stat blocks that I have a problem with, it's the change in format of the maps.

I used to be able to click on the map in the older pdfs, copy, open MS paint, and paste it there.

It would show up without any of the map icons, room numbers, "S" for secret door symbols, and highlighted trap areas.

Ever since season 4, this layering effect was changed so that now, if I want to print out and use the nice map in the scenario, I have to spend all kinds of time editing it to remove those symbols becuase the cut and paste method doesnt work to strip out all the "GM Only" symbols. Most of the time I cant do a convincing job and wind up just drawing lines on graph paper.

Seems a shame to include a nice map that only I as the GM can see.

PRD wrote:
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

My question is does this count as being anchored to the floor, wall, etc. if the creature targeted is in contact with some kind of solid surface. Like a tanglefoot bag made of shadows.

Artanthos wrote:
Did I mention the Shadow Grasp? Anyone approaching me needs to make a save or be entangled.

Wouldn't that mean you'd be constantly entangled as well?


Dennis Baker wrote:
As for Heal... I have to go back and look at it but probably a gaff on my part. *cringe*

So which spell should we substitute for heal?

I also noticed that in the 10-11 tier, the King is casting prep spells for 7 rounds.

7 rounds

I know they say that they are all cast before combat, but how is he supposed to know when combat begins? If the scenario goes as written and the players are camping in C and D, the first indication he will have that combat has started is when his giants spot someone on the stairs and start whipping rocks at them. At this pont he's 300 ft away from the top of the stairs and assuming he and the gal stand there, his 3 or so giants have 7 rounds before the boss gets in on the fight?

Is that how it's supposed to work or am I missing out on something important? The only other plausible explanation there could be is that since his minion came to warn him of the harpy attack, he is casting everything he has because he's expecting a fight at the stairs, one way or the other. Is that what's going on?


I see it as a harmless spell that should be placed on the "permanently allowed" list.

Well, I asked James Jacobs if he could flesh out the 7 other staff's for us and he said he was way too busy.

Who's monkey tree to we have to shake to get these made up? I would dearly love to see them in PFS.


Well, I asked James Jacobs if he could flesh out the 7 other staff's for us and he said he was way too busy.

Who's monkey tree to we have to shake to get these made up? I would dearly love to see them in PFS.

James Jacobs wrote:
Wraithcannon wrote:

The Staff of the Master from Ultimate Equipment;

PRD wrote:

STAFF OF THE MASTER Price 30,000 gp; Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.

Often given as gifts to apprentices upon reaching the rank of master, these staves come in eight different varieties, one for each school of magic. This particular staff is for the school of necromancy. Aside from acting as a +1/+1 quarterstaff, this staff allows use of the following spells:

Ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
Spectral hand (1 charge)
Vampiric touch (2 charges)

In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS Cost 15,300 gp Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, vampiric touch

This item only details one of the eight possible versions, could you provide us rules for the other 7? We would just need you to assign each staff a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lvl spell from the school it was attuned to.


I cannot. I've got an enormous project I need to be working on during all my game design chances.

It's easy enough to make other similar staves though; just change the three spells to other spells of the same level of the target school.

Ah, I understand. I was asking for PFS play reasons, where we can't just do it ourselves (as much as we'd like to).

The Staff of the Master from Ultimate Equipment;

PRD wrote:

STAFF OF THE MASTER Price 30,000 gp; Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.

Often given as gifts to apprentices upon reaching the rank of master, these staves come in eight different varieties, one for each school of magic. This particular staff is for the school of necromancy. Aside from acting as a +1/+1 quarterstaff, this staff allows use of the following spells:

Ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
Spectral hand (1 charge)
Vampiric touch (2 charges)

In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS Cost 15,300 gp Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, vampiric touch

This item only details one of the eight possible versions, could you provide us rules for the other 7? We would just need you to assign each staff a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lvl spell from the school it was attuned to.



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Allow GM credit for running the same scenario multiple times. If I can find a table of fresh players that haven't played it, for whom I can run it, why are you shorting my GM credits?

I realize that not buying new scenarios cuts into Paizo's pockets, but I think this situation is fringe enough that it wouldn't significantly bother them. Other than once or twice a year at conventions, how often do you RUN outside your local PFS circles?

And if you do have a large enough group that fresh players are cycling in, again, why are you cutting off the GM's knees by removing part of his incentive to run? If he has run that scenario, and had a great time running it, why shortchange the players in what will probably be an even better game the second time around because now he's familiar with it by making him pull out a fresh scenario so that he can get credit for it?

I know I know, "But it still counts towards your GM Stars". Whatever, I don't think it's too much to ask.


Here's a good thread.

Thanks Guys!


Back when we had faction missions, I can't tell you how many times myself as a player have asked, and as a GM been asked, "Hey, is this right here that flower/animal/guy I'm looking for? Or is it something we will find later?" How are we supposed to know that Byron is the guy to ask for military aid? We only met him once, at the start of the scenario, and we never got the chance to interact with him alone and never saw him again.

The briefing which you so helpfully quoted, and which more than one player actually took notes on while it was being read (myself included) states that we are supposed to ask the father for military aid. The Father, not Byron, the father.

"Excuse me mayor, but even though it looks like you kidnapped your own daughter, and we're in the middle of foiling your plot, and going to have you arrested, we'd like to take a few minutes to tell you about the poor people of Mendev." Yeah, that would have gone over well.

Before we rescue the daughter, we have exactly noting to offer them in exchange for their aid. We are standing there with our hats one hand and a begging cup in the other. Once we have the daughter, we were told to leave and fully expected to be ambushed on the way out of town by the father and his goons.

There was no way for us to secure aid from the Eagle Knight because we were given no idea that he could provide it. After all, Maldris is an Eagle Knight isn't he? Why would we assume this guy has any more ability or desire to aid us than our own resident VC? I'm sorry if I didn't read the scenario writers mind enough to figure all this out beforehand. We, all six players, wrongfully assumed their would be someone else we could ask for military aid that wasn't corrupt. I actually thought we'd run into someone in the capital that would aid us.

And as to being a murder hobo? You are mistaken. We could have turned the daughter over to the alchemist, gone back to the dad and turned over all the evidence to him, shook hands, and left with the daughter situation being taken care of, a sizable donation to the Pathfinder Orphans of War fund, and a promise of military aid to be forethcoming. Let the woman rot in a Galten prison for all I care.

Three for three and we get our prestige, murder hobo FTW.

Peace, I'm out. <drops mic>


Maybe it was just the way things were interpreted, I felt like once we gave our introduction and announced our intentions, we were told not to do anything because the father had received the standard kidnappers note of "tell no one, ask for no help or she dies" and then we were summarily dismissed. In fact we were told to leave and the GM asked us if we were going to go gracefully or make a stink.

I didn't address the eagle knight at the initial meeting because again, we were told to make our introductions, rescue her, and then ask for aid.

I guess we screwed up by trying to follow our instructions and being the good guys.

Back to being a murder hobo it is.


Maybe I got the timing of the evidence of Bryton's involvement mixed up. It may have been revealed to us in the epilogue that he was in on the scheme to rig elections along with the father.

I suspected that he was involved as soon as we met him, since the father didn't want to say anything in front of him other than, "Don't go looking for my daughter." It seemed suspicious, but we didn't get to interact with him. He just stood there next to the mayor and said nothing. I didn't want to start questioning him in front of the father in case either was in on the scheme. We asked if he was leaving anytime soon and we were told no, he was going to hang out at the mansion. We had no opportunity to speak with either of them alone, which is rule number one when conducting interviews. Separate the suspects and then check their stories against each other.

We were not discouraged to go talk to him, since we had no idea where he was. The last we had heard, he was still at the mansion. Thalia made no suggestions. Once we presented the evidence to the sheriff, he told us to go to Almas with it.

In the briefing we were told to make our introduction, perform the rescue mission, and then ask for aid. There was no chance to ask for aid from anyone other than the daughter.


Jeff, the Eagle Knight never said one word to us at the mansion, pretty much just stood by and let the Mayor do all the talking. Not one word.

Mist, After we talked our way past the magus and found the letters he had after he left, we went to the alchemists shop and talked with her. The alchemist explained her offer and her involvement, and we let her talk all the way through her entire schpeel, even detailing the daughter's new life. A few members of the group were playing devil's advocate for the alchemist, and explained why being "kidnapped" would actually work out better for the daughter in the long run, as well as how it would help the Pathfinders. But when the rubber hit the road and she refused to go along with the scheme, my paladin and the LG oracle said, "No, if she doesn't WANT to go, then she's not going, and we are not giving her over to be taken against her will, we are leaving with her to take the evidence we have to the sheriff." That is what triggered the alchemists fight.

After the fight, we found even more evidence linking her father, as well as the eagle knight, to the kidnapping and the alchemist was still alive. So we took her, all the evidence that we had found from the other encounters, and her apprentice, down to the jail and dumped it all in front of the sheriff. After he saw everything, he told us the only thing we could do now, since everyone in charge here was dirty, was go to the ombudsman in Almas and present our evidence to the court. He would keep the alchemist under lock and key until a trial could be arraigned. So we hit the road since that's what we were told to do.

The daughter was very polite to us and didn't try to boss us around at any time, she was very adamant about accompanying us to the alchemist and sheriff, but otherwise went along with the groups decisions because apparently we were doing what she wanted.


Just played this and was very disappointed by losing out on the second prestige point because we did the "good" thing by helping the daughter and turning her father over to the authorities.

After the alchemist fight, we never ran into the Eagle Knight again to gain the opportunity to ask him for help. The GM let it slip that the father was evil and very connected, he'd arraigned the kidnapping for crying out loud. So we figured we'd better get out of town with the daughter while the getting was good, lest we be pitted against the entire town militia, more mercenaries, or whatever. It really felt like it was the only sane choice.

Once we told the GM we were leaving town with the girl, that ended the scenario and our chances to gain our second prestige point. I really feel let down in that there was no way to encounter the eagle knight other than at the father's mansion, no chance to run into him in Almas, nothing.


I was wondering if I could get a list of all the brick and mortar retailers in my state (Minnesota) and the neighboring ones (Wisconsin, Iowa, Dakotas) that stock Pathfinder.

I am desperately trying to find an out of print Pathfinder book and am calling everyone with driving distance that I know about. I was hoping you might be able to help me with the ones I don't know about.


I still don't see any traits from Andoran: Spirit of Liberty. Oregant Desperation has got to be one of my favorite traits of all time.

So that's it? Or has their been any other updates?


Ride the Boar, go Cockatrice Cavalier

1st Mounted Combat
2nd Dazzling Display for free (with the Braggart ability)
3rd Ride By Attack
5th Power Attack
6th Wheeling Charge
7th Indomitable Mount
9th Spirited Charge
11th Dreadful Carnage
12th Furious Focus

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Potion of Air Bubble (for water)
Potion of Touch of the Sea (for water)
Oil of Bless Weapon (for when they have DR/Evil)
Oil of Grease / Alchemical Grease (for when you're grappled)
Vermin Repellant (swarms)
2 Holy Water (undead)
2 Alchemists Fire (swarms)
2 flasks of Oil (throw on burning targets)
Smokesticks with tinder twigs attached by twine (one action pulls it out, one action strikes the match, the stick burns)
Bag of Powder, Salt (invisible creatures and leeches)
Smoke (smog) pellets (invisible creatures)
Healers Kit
Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Infernal Healing

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath
Cold Iron Dagger
Whetstone (for dagger)
Silvered Spiked Gauntlet (so that you always provide a flank)
Weapon Cords (for being disarmed)
Smelling Salts (wake up the KO'ed bad guy without burning a cure)
Drill (make small holes in doors to see into rooms)
Knotted rope and Grappling Hook
Ioun Torch
Handy Haversack (to carry it all)

I will pass on this product even though I am planning to run this AP early next year. The maps offered do not seem to be of much use when I already have most of them, or acceptable substitutes that I could even draw myself.

No, what I needed this to be was a folio containing PDFs of all the maps from the AP with the notes for the DM removed. Something I could access so I could print out the AP's maps without having to go into Photoshop or MS Paint and modify them so the players wouldn't get giveaway clues when I lay them out on the tabletop (electronic or otherwise).

I don't understand why the AP's can't follow the example set by the PFS scenarios. With those maps it's as simple as clicking on the image in the PDF (which then highlights), copy, open MS Paint, Paste, and done. The map copies without any of the traps, room numbers, or "place badguys here" icons on it. It becomes something that you can simply adjust the size of for scale and hit "print".

This is the first Paizo AP I will be running, so I don't know what the past APs have done. It seems silly that PFS can figure out how to format things for ease of use, but the AP staff can't?

Disappointing, and a lot more work for me.

P.S. If you have some technical tips that would help with this problem, please share them and I will take it all back.

So it looks like targets who are trampled have no chance of being knocked prone because their is no roll to overcome their CMD.


I'm going to be running this in a few weeks too, I can already tell it's going to be a cake walk and am not looking forward to a challenge-less scenario.

The shadowy illumination conditions (What is Shadowy Illumination anyway? Does it differ somehow from Dim Light?) being negated by a torch, lantern, or sunrod is just wrong. The text on the shadow plane;

Gamemastery Guide wrote:
• Impeded Magic: Spells with the light descriptor or that use or generate light or fire are impeded on the Shadow Plane. Spells that produce light are less effective in general, because all light sources have their ranges halved on the Shadow Plane.

I think this should be the case for any mundane lighting in the museum. A torch would give you a 10' radius of normal light, a sunrod 15', and everything past that is dim. I realize that this is a conjuncture of the planes, but without the darkness to help them, these fetchlings are going to be just speedbumps.

The tactics for some of these bad guys are just silly. The guards with alchemists fire, liquid ice, and slings don't even use them from the darkness before rushing into battle? The alchemist attacks in melee and only retreats up the wall to throw bombs after they've been beat up? The monk doesn't climb onto the pyramid using acrobatics to avoid being flanked?

It's like you're throwing away the only tactics that would make this an actual challenge.

I like the ideas of having the invisible alchemist questioning the PCs from the ceiling in a creepy voice and trying to convince them to leave peacefully (even though we all know that's not going to happen), then bombing them and going melee as a last resort.

I like the idea of the fetchling guards sniping from the darkness and only going to melee when cornered. I mean seriously, tier 1-2 is two guys with AC 14 and 8 hp. Seriously. Against a party of 6. They charge. Seriously?

I like the idea of Uthil Mak using the oil of Shield of Faith as the PC's stand outside the door if he heard the shadow hound baying earlier. Then stashing one daughter behind the pyramid, and using disguise self to make himself look like one of the Blackros daughters on top of the pyramid ready to be sacrificed, and using a readied action to trip or stunning fist any PC that comes to help him. Then using his Ki and height advantage to give him an AC 23 and +1 bonus to hit while he balances atop the pyramid. He might actually last more than 3 rounds that way......

P.S. Has anyone else thought that pyramid is too tiny to be 10' high? I mean, at 2x2 squares, it's more like an obelisk. Shouldn't it be 4x4 squares so you can step over 5' and up 5'? With the 4 squares in the middle being 10 ft off the ground to give you the "central dais"? I wonder if the mapmaker made an error?


I got one shotted in a scenario, I got full attacked in the surprise round after the BBEG got Ddoored right next to me. Full to dead.

Wasn't fun.

Really not trying to re-write the game here, just add on to what we have. An opinion on the game balance of this ability would be more appreciated.


I was thinking of a new armor ability to help high dex characters, the costs are such due to the fact that the player has already probably spent gold on dex boosting items.

By adding this ability to a suit of magic armor, you increase it's maximum dexterity bonus. The magic makes the armor bend and flow with you, but still retain it's defensive abilities against attacks.

Lesser Flexibility: +1,000 GP, Increases Max Dex by +1
Flexibility: +4,000 GP, Increases Max Dex by +2
Improved Flexibility: +9,000, Increases Max Dex by +3
Greater Flexibility: +16,000, Increases Max Dex by +4


Head's up guys, 30 years after one of the first anime's out there, and it's follow up RPG, we finally get the miniature game.

I know a lot of us enjoy different games, and I'm looking forward to enjoying this one with some of you.

Heck, once it goes live, I'm sure we may even see it in the Paizo store.

So, does it or does it not?

It has the same wording as the Bless spell and I'm fairly certain most people include the cleric in the bonus when they cast it.


Jiggy wrote:
Of the two sentences you mention, only one of them uses the qualifier "in general".

True, and looking closely, the Imp is a companion for the Diabolist.

So I guess that answers that question.


So, how about a Summoner/Diabolist? They have an Eidolon and an Imp companion, does that break the rules?

Both level up and are quite nasty in combat, the imp more than you would think.

FAQ wrote:

How many animals can I have at any given time?

During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

Players are going to focus on the last sentence, but does that override the first sentence?

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I LOVE Feral Speech for my conjuration specialist, it allows me to communicate with any of the animals I summon, and direct them in battle.


What if I make photocopies of the relevant pages from the physical books I own and bring those?


Among the Living was a scenario I was worried about when I brought my gnome cavalier and his wolf mount.

I heard that it was taking place in an opera house, so I was trying to figure out how I would be able to get him out of whatever nearby stable I would have to put him in once the scenario started.

Thankfully, the GM handwaved me getting him into the bar before the show, since there really aren't any guards at that door (they want the public to come in and drink after all).

Once he was in, all it took was a quick Intimidate check on an usher to let him sit with me under my seat once they opened the doors for seating.

When I ran this, I didn't have any players with animal companions or the like, but when I saw that the exterior doors would be sealed I resolved to let anyone with one have them inside the building. My plan was to have the animal tied up over in the actors, or service entrance, and that after the initial fight, they would be able to get to them.

My point is, that if it's at all possible, be mindful of players with animal companions and such, and see if you can't figure out how to accommodate them. Even if it stretches logic a little.

I'm curious as to the rules for aging the target.

It states that it ages the target, so how much aging does the touch do?

Is the aging permanent/partially permanent?


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite.
Wraithcannon wrote:

A light or darkness spell is immediately dispelled by a higher level spell.

A light or darkness spell is immediately counterspelled by an equal level spell.

You know what might work better is if instead of immediately counterspelling or dispelling each other, the light and darkness spells of greater level suppress those of a lower level, and equal level spells merely suppress each other, until one expires or the area of effect separates.

That way you don't lose your permanent spell that you paid for due to a short contact with a free darkness spell.

So to sum up:

Light and Dancing Lights are suppressed by all darkness spells.

Continual Flame (This makes a blanket assumption that the Continual Flame was cast by a wizard) is suppressed by Blacklight and Deeper Darkness, and both Darkness and Continual Flame suppress each other.

Daylight suppresses Darkness, and both Black Light and Deeper Darkness suppress Daylight and are suppressed in turn.

The only wrinkle is the wording of the effect when the spells area of effect overlaps, would you want to have only the area of the spell overlapping be suppressed, or once they touch, both entire areas are?

I think this type of rational is the only logical way of dealing with magical darkness and light (wait, did I just say that?). It gives a clear set of guidelines for everyone and throws the nonsense of the whole Heightened Spell argument out the window.

You want to make a fair set of rules, with reasonable workarounds and counters to the attacks that the players will be facing, and I think this achieves that without forcing the players into unreasonable levels of preparation.

If you think this makes sense, favorite this post or mark it for the FAQ.



1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Jiggy wrote:
So either the rules on the interaction of light/darkness spells are literally self-contradictory

Yes, they are. I would say these two sentences directly contradict each other.

Darkness wrote:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Continual Flame wrote:
Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.

So which is which? Let's look at the wording in all the light and darkness Spells.

Light wrote:
Light can be used to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower spell level.
Continual Flame wrote:
Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.
Daylight wrote:
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
Darkness wrote:
Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Deeper Darkness wrote:
Deeper darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Blacklight wrote:
Blacklight counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level. Daylight counters or dispels blacklight.

From what I understand of your argument, you're saying that the one sentence in Darkness trumps all the rest of the spell descriptions?

Let's see if I can work this out by example:

You're saying that if I'm walking along with my 2nd level continual flame tucked away, and someone casts darkness on a pebble at my feet, I'm still in the dark once I pull it out.

Now if I'm walking along with the light out and waving it around, the baddie has two choices, he can either cast darkness on it and dispel it, returning us to normal light levels, or he can cast darkness on the pebble at my feet and I'm in the darkness.

Same thing applies if I'm walking along with my Daylight or 3rd level Cont. Flame either tucked away or out, once someone casts deeper darkness, I'm in the dark because that one sentence trumps all the other spell descriptions?

I don't think that's what the game designers had in mind, but right now if we follow Jiggy's line of reason, Darkness trumps all.

Now lets talk about the whole counter and dispel thing. The wording for some of the spells is different. Did you notice how each spell except Continual Flame, Daylight, and Blacklight say that they "can be used" whilst these spells simply say "dispels"? Does that mean that you have to act as Jiggy suggested and actively target the opposing spell with a new casting for anything other than CF, DL, or BL, while the effects of those two spells automatically do it for you?

Both light and dark spells have this wording, I'm just going to use two:

Daylight wrote:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell's effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Darkness wrote:
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

So the effect is blocked until it's uncovered, which means that right now, if a CF, DL, or BL spell is brought into an opposing spells area and uncovered, it immediately counters and dispels it. But nothing else does that. Does that make sense?

So, where do we go from here?

My humble suggestion would be an errata on the wordings of all these spells to make them universal and describe how these spells effect each other. My thoughts go like this:

A light or darkness spell is immediately dispelled by a higher level spell.

A light or darkness spell is immediately counterspelled by an equal level spell.

This effect takes place whenever these two opposing spells areas of effect meet.

And can we please just make continual flame count as either a second or third level spell for this effect? It's a pain for some people to figure out what level it is when it's an Ioun Torch, Everburning Torch, or monster's spell like ability.


Here's how things went down when I ran this scenario and I'm the evil fiend who killed Jiggy.

Our party build up consisted of Jiggy's Eldritch Knight, a kickass monk played by his brother, and the 7th level pregens Merrisel, Ezren, and Kyra.

The characters encounter the deva at the entrance and it gives its challenge. They counter by talking to it and telling it that they aren't the tomb robbers it's looking for. I put the GM screen aside for a second and tell them that they will have to make a very high Diplomacy check to bypass this guy. They need to decide who has the best score, roll the assists, and make a Diplomacy roll.

They fail

At this point I look back at the scenario and what it says about the angels binding argeement.

This is what I have to work with:

the Refuge of Time wrote:

"They can pass only if they defeat the angel or convince it they come in the name of good."

"Before leaving Kaer Maga, Naroth conjured this angel with a planar binding spell and bound it to his service."

"Once at the shrine, Naroth instructed his called angel to guard the entrance to this holy site from tomb robbers. He noted that tomb robbers in this region often carry magical compasses that shed light (wayfinders) to aid in their dark delves. Naroth also instructed the angel not to divulge any information about him or the other Lissalan cultists."

"With a successful DC 34 Diplomacy check, a PC can convince the deva that combat might not be necessary, at which point it listens to the PCs’ case"

"If the PCs agree to the angel’s terms and do not lie during the conversation, the deva praises their honesty, permits them to enter, and gives them a silken pouch containing the rewards below."

So they've blown the Diplomacy roll, but I figure that with some real life roleplaying, I'll let them walk past. If they can just convince the angel that they aren't tomb robbers......

The characters start asking the angel questions, asking what it has agreed to, invite it to detect evil on them, and start to try to get a feel for what will trigger the angel letting them pass.

One of the characters hits on the idea of his faction mission and he tells the angel that he is searching for a merchant he is afraid has been kidnapped and he believes that merchant to be inside the shrine, may he enter and look for this person? The angel knows that there are people inside the shrine, so it makes him submit to the strip and detect lie, and then lets him pass.

The rest of the characters follow suite except for the monk, who at one point says to the angel that he just wants to go inside and take out the tokens. I did my best not to facepalm as the Deva raised his sword and said, "You are a thief and may not pass." The player quickly backpeddled, stripped, submitted to the spell, and promised that he would not take anything out of the shrine (unspoken was the fact that he didn't need too if his friends did) and the angel let him pass. Jiggy was the last one in and finally came up with the correct wording to satisfy the Deva and that was the end of the encounter. They blew the Diplomacy but after I managed to get some roleplay out of them, they were allowed entry.

It took quite a while and Jiggy is right, even if they Dip check their way past the guy, he doesn't leave, he's still out their protecting the place from tomb robbers.

One GM I talked to said that he allowed his group to use Dispel Magic to break the Planar Binding. I know this doesn't work since Planar Binding is an Instantaneous Duration Spell and:

Dispel Magis wrote:
The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You could potentially use Dismissal on him, but how many players walk around with that prepared?

So the group walks in and starts talking to the prisoners, getting information and doing faction stuff. Then they walk around to the statue, look at it, fail their spellcraft rolls, and decide not to touch it. In hindsight I should have docked them the GP value of not securing the items, but by the time we were done playing, I simply forgot.

They cant budge the old main entrance, but after chipping a chunk of the door out with an adamantine sword and seeing that it's caved in mostly, they leave it be.

So the next thing that happens is that the monk walks into the room with the shadow and they start dancing. You have never seen a more frustrated undead as the monks touch AC was so high that it didn't score a single hit has he beat it to "death" with his magical fists.

The next room up was the chapel and in goes the monk again. Initiative time. The graveknight wins and charges the monk for a ton of damage. The cleric opens up her spell selection with bless, while the monk barely 5 feet from her is bleeding out of two new holes and pleading to be healed. Sorry monk, this was what I planned to cast she says. LOL The fight takes a good deal of time but they manage to finally bring the GK down with no casualties, even though at one point Ezren pulled out his crossbow. I never knew how much following step could be.

The final room awaits, the party heals up while the wizard starts buffing, and it's go time.

The battle that follows is one of the longest I have ever GMed and was utterly brutal. The stinking clouds, the nausea, the party retreating, the wizard Dimensonal stepping after them, the rogue sneaking around invisibly, the fiendish bison charging and stomping people into the ground, the sinspawn who didn't want to move, and the acid, OMG the acid!

Something that I am going to note here that during this battle, not one, but TWO party members retreated out to the angel and started begging him to help them. I'm sitting there behind the screen thinking, "OK what now smart guy? They've just brought the angel back into the game." The angel stares at them, shrugs, and heals them up. When they keep pestering him, he gives them both the Aid spell, and tells them that is all he can do.

As the fight rages on, the Monk got KOed, Ezren died, the cleric got KOed, Merrisel died, and Jiggy is on his own. For the next 10 rounds or more, he solos against the wizard and his chums. He and the wizard seperate due to another dimensional step, Jiggy buffs back up, infernal healing, haste, fly, and goes wizard hunting again. Wizard is down to a few spells and his acid darts. The wizard then dimensional steps away from the flying superspeed sword of death and back out to the entryway.

The final moments are upon us as Jiggy comes barreling back out and the wizard casts around for some last ditch way to save his skin and spots...

The angel

With a blood flecked scream he commands the angel to protect him from this tomb robber. The angel sighs, shrugs, and flys up to meet Jiggy. At this point I'm going to have the angel use a slam or some other minor ability to fend him off but thats when the angel sees he's radiating evil. The angel doesn't have detect magic and is now assuming he's been duped somehow. Out comes the flaming greatsword. At this point Jiggy is desperately trying to maneuver around the angel and finish the wizard off. He and the angel are flying around eachother and the wizard, tired of this ariel dance, floats back and commands the angel to strip him of his enchantments. One Antimagic field later Jiggy is laying prone looking up at the flying wizard and angels flapping wings.

The wizard, bloody, near death, and entirely sick of this nonesense, offers to let Jiggy leave in peace if he will surrender.

Jiggy answers him by casting Dimension Door and teleporting into the small caved in entryway that they had chipped a crack into while investigating the shrine earlier. That is the last straw for the wizard, he kills the KOed Kyra with an acid dart, screams for the slothspawn in the other room to kill the KOed monk (which he does) and tells the angel to find jiggy and finish him.

The angel has a 50/50 chance now to go one way or the other, if he floats toward the statue and the entrance, he'll see the crack and find Jiggy. If he floats the other way into the chapel, Jiggy may have a few rounds to pull himself together. Unfortunately the dice were not with him as the angel flys over to the crack, peers inside with his darkvison, sees Jiggy, and with an "I'm sorry", kills him with a holy smite.

Game Over.

I find myself agreeing with Jiggy though, it's best just to kill the angel right away and get it over with. Any time you are playing on a small map like this where the encounters could run together, it's best to have a SWAT team mentality. Sweep and clear everything, secure everyone you find so that they can't sneak up on you later, and move to the next area. When in doubt, take it out.

This was my first ever TPK in PFS, I think it was a very challenging scenario and I'd be happy to run it again anytime.

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