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Machine Soldier

Gauss's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Society Member. 6,164 posts (6,172 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 1 alias.


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I had made a very specific point to state that for the sake of the "Order of Operations" discussion I was ignoring the material question.

Please do not construe that as defacto acceptance that I believe you can make Celestial Armor out of any material you wish.

Do try to keep the separate points...separate?

To put this another way:
Can you make Celestial Plate Armor out of another material? Only if Celestial is not required to be made out of silver.
Will Celestial Plate Armor benefit from being made out of Mithral? No because Mithral happens before the Celestial magic sets the stats.

The problem you keep having is that you keep treating Celestial Plate as an "adjustment that affects the base item". Nowhere in the rules for Celestial Plate Armor does it state the words 'adjustment' or 'base item'.

Mithral has adjustments for a base item while Celestial Plate Armor effectively replaces stats, it does not adjust them. If it adjusted them then Celestial could be applied to non-Plate Armor, which it cannot because there are no adjustment stats.

Ok, a new thought exercise for those that still do not seem to understand.

What does the mithral special material do to the classification (Light, Medium, or Heavy) of armor? Reduces it by one step for most purposes.

What does Celestial Armor do to the classification of Heavy Armor? Reduces it to Medium.

Now, we have two effects and they are worded differently. We have to determine what the order of operations is. Why? Because there are two possible results depending on the order assigned. Pathfinder uses order of operations all the time in the statistics and math of the system.

Now, the rules do not specifically state one way or the other what that order of operations is. Since there is no specific rule we have to go by the order of construction which is the closest thing to a rule that we have.

So by order of construction we start with Heavy armor. Then Mithral reduces it to Medium (for most purposes). Next we add on Celestial.
What happens? Well, Celestial does not state to reduce it one step. It states that Celestial Full Plate is treated as Medium armor. Thus, Mithral Celestial Full Plate it is now medium armor.

Of course, your system is Armor, Celestial, Mithral but that is not the order of construction and there is nothing in the rules to support this stance.

Crozekiel, you are absolutely correct that you cannot take +1 Steel Plate Armor and make it +1 Mithral Plate Armor. That is most certainly how the game works. There is no provision for taking +1 Steel Plate Armor and adding the Mithral to it.

However, you may add Mithral to non-magical Plate Armor when it is constructed at which point it is non-magical Mithral Plate Armor. Then you may make it magical.

Special Materials cannot be added after an item is manufactured and cannot be added after it is magical.

The process to create magical armor is as follows:
1) First some armorsmith uses the craft skill to make the non-magical armor. If he wants it to be made from a special material this is when that happens.
2) Second, someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor makes the armor magical.

So, we have Mithral Plate Armor that has a specific set of stats (Plate + Mithral modifiers). Next, we have Celestial added on that has a specific set of stats that replaces whatever the original armor's stats are.

This is simply how the rules work. Now, you may want them to work otherwise but this is the Rules Forum. Feel free to house rule it however you want.

In any case, my position is clearly stated and unless there is some new information in this discussion I don't really see the point of debating "is not!" vs "is too!" any further.

Mithral is not and CANNOT be applied to Celestial Plate. You cannot change the material after construction so you cannot take Celestial Plate and make it Mithral.

However, if you apply Celestial Plate to Mithral Full Plate you will not benefit from the Mithral Plate because Celestial does not state it modifies the existing scores like Mithral does. Instead of modifying existing stats it replaces them and what it is replacing is Mithral Full Plate's stats.

To order your animal companion to do something that it is trained to do is a DC 10 Handle Animal check. The DC goes up by +2 if it is hurt.

Handle Animal is a move action to order an animal to do something it is trained to do. It is a free action for the 'owner' of an Animal Companion to order it to do something it is trained to do.

This is on CRB p97-98

Your animal having a higher than 2 intelligence and the ability to speak does not negate the need for Handle Animal. Link to blog

Animal Archive also explains what equipment slots different animal types have and has a number of interesting feats and archetypes for animals and familiars.

It is really a must have book for animal companions and useful for familiars too.

In the CRB the Attack trick costs two tricks if you want your animal companion to attack creatures other than humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and animals (such as unnatural creatures like undead).

CRB p97 wrote:
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

There are 12 (13 if you want the animal companion to attack unnatural creatures) tricks in the CRB and there are 17 tricks in Animal Archive for a total of 29 (30) tricks.

A level 20 Druid's animal companion with a 2 intelligence has 13 tricks. The CRB has enough to fill all of that but with the addition of Animal Archive's tricks there are more than you can ever choose.

Suichimo, while you might infer the RAI from that it is not how the rules are written.

Many rules in the game are written in one of two formats: a modifier to an existing score or a flat value.
Mithral uses a modifier to an existing score (that of the original non-magical armor) and Celestial uses a flat value.

Because of that we have to look at the order in which they are applied. This is how the rules work.

We start with the original (1st) flat values, apply the modifiers, then apply the 2nd flat values. The result is we are left with the 2nd flat value.

On the other hand if we start with the original (1st) flat values, apply the 2nd flat values, and then apply the modifiers to the 2nd flat values we are left with the 2nd flat values + modifiers.

Again, it depends on the order. In this case it is Armor -> Mithral -> Celestial which results in 1st flat values + modifiers then all of that is replaced by 2nd flat values.

True, but that was not the OP's topic. :)

Bracers resize to fit the wearer.

CRB p459 wrote:

Size and Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions, especially with race specific items.

Or put them on after wild shape. If the form you have taken has a wrist slot then you are good to go (Animal Archive has what available slots different animals have).

I answered that question here.

And please keep it civil, sarcasm is not necessary.

Actually, my operations follow the game's logic completely. The game uses this kind of logic constantly.
If something replaces X with Y you have to follow the specific order things happen in to know if another bonus happens before, after, or not at all.

And yes, there is reason for those rules to exist, you could apply other specific armor types to Mithral armor but in this specific case the wording of Celestial dictates the bonuses.
Although, you could make Adamantine Celestial Armor (assuming the 'silver' material issue is a non-issue).

As an example: Breastplate of Vanishing (UEp124) could become Mithral Breastplate of Vanishing without a problem.
Why? Because nothing in the Breastplate of Vanishing overlaps or contradicts Mithral.

Assuming that this is not a material issue and thus you can make Celestial Plate out of steel rather than 'silver' (which, for this purpose I have chosen to leave out of this element of the discussion) then you start at step 1, skip step 2, and go straight to step 3.

But, alas, you cannot then apply Mithral to it.

Mage Armor works, Bracers of Armor does not because of the rules and only because of the rules. What makes sense does not necessarily have any bearing on the rules. :)

Here is James Jacobs on the subject

You are absolutely correct, it is not Mithral after the fact. It is Mithral BEFORE being made into Celestial Armor.

Lets see if we can quantify this a bit better:
Step 1) Start with Plate Armor. Stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +1, ACP -6, Spell Failure 35%, Speed 20', Weight 50lbs.

Step 2) Apply the Mithral special material. New stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +3, ACP -3, Spell Failure 25%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs

Step 3) Using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, add the abilities of Celestial Armor to the existing armor. New stats: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +6, ACP -3, Spell Failure 20%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs

Now, you want to exchange steps 2 and 3 but you CANNOT DO THAT. Why? Because Mithral Full Plate is a fully stated item BEFORE it can become Celestial Full Plate. It cannot be added afterwards.

Now, if Celestial Full Plate stated that it increases/decreases the various stats then, and only then, you would get: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +8, ACP -1, Spell Failure 10%, Speed 30', Weight 12.5lbs
But, alas, it does not state that. It states specific bonuses that it grants.
Those bonuses override any existing bonuses that the armor may already have because of the order in which the armor is constructed.
If you could find a way to take existing Celestial Plate armor and make it Mithral then you could do what you are saying.

Except you are not applying Mithral statistics to Celestial Plate, you are applying Mithral statistics to regular old mundane Plate.
Then the Celestial Plate statistics are added to Mithral Plate.
You are clearly the one in house rules territory.

Thought exercise:
Start with Plate armor
Make it out of Mithral instead of Steel (because it must be done before Celestial is applied).
What are it's stats?
Now, make it magical by applying Celestial to it.
What are it's stats? The same as Celestial because Celestial stats are static and not an 'add-on'.

Can you make it Mithral after making it Celestial? No.
Why? Because Mithral is applied to the base armor when it is created.
Magic is then added AFTER creation.

Is there an exception that allows you to take Celestial Plate and make it Mithral after the fact? No.


Lets assume that we treated this 3.5 item as if it were a Pathfinder item and subject to Pathfinder rules.

In that case, if you were to start with Mithral Plate you have Heavy armor that counts as Medium armor for certain things.

Next, we slap Celestial Plate on it and it counts as...Medium Armor.
Why? Because that is what Celestial Plate states. What it does not state it is that it becomes one category lighter. If it stated it becomes one category lighter then you would have Light armor (for certain purposes and Medium armor for the remaining purposes).

So, Heavy that is treated as Medium for certain purposes is now Heavy that is treated as Medium for all purposes.

Now, I know you will say...but Mithral...!! But, because you start with mithral you cannot calculate the Celestial first and Mithral second. The Mithral is calculated first and then the Celestial is applied. When Celestial is applied it has a specific list of stats which pretty much replaces whatever Mithral did.

A basic rules concept is in effect here: unless it states it stacks or it states it reduces what is already in existence then it doesn't. Celestial Plate does not state either of those things.


Skeletons of Scarwall p29 wrote:
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
CRB p154 wrote:
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be prof icient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Wow, I totally misread the original post's emphasis. Shimesen got the emphasis right. LOL :)

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All of the debate regarding whether or not Mithral Celestial Plate Armor is RAW or not is flawed in that Celestial Plate Armor cannot be Pathfinder RAW to begin with.

This is because Celestial Plate Armor is from a 3.5 Paizo publication and not a Pathfinder Paizo publication. Thus, it is not part of the Pathfinder game and cannot be RAW for Pathfinder.

Of course, a GM may grant permission to use it but that would be GM fiat. At that point whether or not the GM decides you can apply Mithral to it is also GM fiat since it is a 3.5 item.

First, a Warpriest can take combat feats and not just fighter feats with his bonus feats.

Second, he counts as a fighter of a level equal to his warpriest level.

ACG p62 wrote:
Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for these feats (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and racial Hit Dice). Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

Lets ask a question: If we turn 'regular' armor into 'silver' armor can we then turn 'silver' armor into 'mithral' armor and have it count as 'silver'? Answer: No

Celestial Armor is made out of silver. It cannot be both silver and mithral. Since this is a specific magic item the moment you choose to make a Chainmail out of Mithral instead of Silver you cannot use it for Celestial Armor.

The Sap can damage undead if you take a -4 attack penalty to change the non-lethal damage to lethal damage.

Banded Mail is not even better than Breastplate and thus it is not a good choice. Banded Mail has a total of +8 (AC+max dex) while Breastplate is a total of +9 (AC +max dex).

You cannot talk about optimizing armor without discussing what quality you are optimizing for. Nowhere in your post or in your webpage did I see that you were optimizing for ACP rather than AC although it is possible I missed it. Now that is clear.

Frankly, people see optimizing armor and most of them will try to optimize the protection without sacrificing whatever they feel they need. For some that will be ACP and Speed.

In any case no regression is required for Armor Class Bonus and Dex bonus. It doesn't matter what your Dex bonus is since at any Dex bonus below +9 the best armor (for AC purposes) is going to be Full Plate.

You are really over-complicating what is a basic concept.

I dont know why you say Banded Mail is a good choice. It is +7 AC with a Max Dex of +1 for a total of +8.
Full Plate is clearly a better choice with a +9 AC bonus and a Max Dex of +1 for a total of +10.

As for Dex Bonuses, that is where I do not understand your position. Even if you have a +5 Dex bonus the armor that provides the best AC for you is still Full Plate.

Lets go with your Studded Leather example.
Studded Leather has +3 AC and +5 max dex for a total of +8.
Full Plate has +9 AC and +1 max dex for a total of +10.

It doesn't matter if your Dexterity is +5, the Full Plate is still a better choice for AC.
Now, if you are willing to take the -2 AC loss (in favor of speed, weight, and ACP) then go for the Studded Leather.

There are any number of ways to counter a spell without using a counterspell. Attacking the spellcaster, distracting him, silencing him (assuming you can get silence down from a full-round action), and blocking line of sight/effect.

Frankly, the moment a party sees there is a powerful enemy spellcaster there should be someone with a readied action to prevent him from getting a spell off.

I am not sure I understand your logic. If the priority is AC then the best is Heavy Armor. The way you have it set up your chart it seems like you are placing the same value on ACP that you place on AC.
Light Armor maxes out at +8 (AC+Max Dex)
Medium Armor maxes out at +9 (AC+Max Dex)
Heavy Armor maxes out at +10 (AC+Max Dex)

Now, that doesn't take into account the other effects such as weight, speed reduction, ACP, etc. but if you want the best AC you can get then you clearly want Heavy Armor.

Now, where things really become tricky is when you have to buy the armor proficiency. If you have to spend a feat to get Heavy Armor AND you can max out the Dexterity of medium armor then it is better to spend the feat on "Dodge". The same holds true for spending a feat to get Medium Armor proficiency.

Light Armor +Dodge maxes out at +9 (AC+Max Dex) which is equivalent to Medium Armor.
Medium Armor + Dodge maxes out at +10 (AC+Max Dex) which is equivalent to Heavy Armor.

Of course, none of this takes into account special abilities, magic items (such as Celestial Armor), and special materials but special materials like Mithral increases the Max Dex universally so really doesn't change which armor provides the best protection if you are willing to pay the cost and have the Dex to max it out.

Summary: If your priority is Armor Class then you should go for Full Plate as it has the highest combination of AC and max dex. If your priority is something else (such as speed or low ACP) then you are sacrificing AC for that something else.

No, you are not missing anything.

There is an odd disparity between the levels of the powers you can take and the levels which you get monk abilities you can exchange for those powers.

You get powers to exchange at 4, 5, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 17, 19, and 20.
The levels of the powers you can acquire are at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20.

Without retraining you cannot take a level 8 (or 10) power until level 11.
Except for levels 4, 12, and 20 there is no 1-1 matchup between the powers you lose and the powers you can select.

Kysune, correct. Aid Another does not require you to threaten and nothing in the Bodyguard feat changes that. All it requires of you is that you are in a position to make a melee attack and a whip qualifies.

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Lets be clear, here:

Aid Another does NOT require you to threaten the enemy. People really need to stop stating this. There is nothing in the rule that states you must threaten the enemy.
What it does state is that you need to be able to make a melee attack against the enemy. That is a very important distinction because there is a rules difference between threatening and being able to make a melee attack.

CRB p197 wrote:
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

Now, with that said there is a long debate over whether or not you must still apply the 'be able to make a melee attack against the enemy' clause of Aid Another.

The author of the feat has stated that his intent was that you do not need to be able to make a melee attack but that the RAW is that you do.

Doh, you ever read something two, three times and think you have read it correctly but it turns out you misread it each time? LOL, sorry about that Thomas.

Thomas Long 175, I agree with most of your statements earlier in the comparison of Crossbow and Bow except the one regarding 19-20/x2 vs x3 DPR.

Statistically 19-20/x2 is identical to 20/x3.

Given two weapons with identical damage (which is not the case here but that is another matter) you will do exactly the same DPR damage if one is 19-20/x2 and the other is 20/x3.

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ACG p153 wrote:

Pack Flanking (Teamwork)

You and your companion creature are adept at fighting together against foes.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, ability to acquire an animal companion.
Benefit: When you and your companion creature have this feat, your companion creature is adjacent to you or sharing your square, and you both threaten the same opponent, you are considered to be flanking that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.

Is it the intent that Druids and Rangers are unable to use this feat?

It appears there is no way for an Animal Companion to qualify for this feat and thus only classes that grant teamwork feats to allies (like Cavaliers) or do not need an ally to have a teamwork feat (like Inquisitors) can make use of it.

Yeah, I love Shift. It is great for delivering touch spells (cast, walk up, touch, shift away).

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Under A Bleeding Sun, you may want to check again, it is a spell-like ability (sp) and thus provokes.

Arturius, there are enough people debating this that clearly it is not clear cut. There have been other threads about this very topic before so it is not just this thread that is pointing out the lack of clarity here.

I like the idea that an Inflict Deadly Wounds (Breath of Unlife?) spell brings back undead that have been destroyed for up to 1 round (if it would bring the undead up to more than 0 hp).

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Just think of it as 1 hp per level with a minimum of 3 hps.

CRB page145 Table 6-5 states that a Tiny version of a Medium weapon that does 1d3 does 1 point of damage.

The RAW is silent however I expect the RAI is the same as Spiritual Weapon. In that case I suggest borrowing from Spiritual Weapon the following text:

CRB p348 Spiritual Weapon wrote:
The weapon that you get is often a force replica of your deity’s own personal weapon. A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time. The weapons associated with each alignment are as follows: chaos (battleaxe), evil (light flail), good (warhammer), law (longsword).

master_marshmallow wrote:
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is close to legal. Let's say someone has Bracers of Armor on with some specific enchantments on it, and also is wearing a chain shirt that is +5. They get their +9 for the chain shirt, but do not gain the minimum required +1 from the bracers, but they would gain the special ability of the armor because it is equipped and is not occupying the same magic item slot.
CRB p505 Bracers of Armor wrote:
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table 15–4 for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

You cannot wear a Chain Shirt and Bracers of Armor and get the special abilities from the Bracers of Armor at the same time you get the AC bonus from the Chain Shirt.

Touche' :)

You are standing at your computer? Hmmm, must have one of them fancy setups. :D

Shamans do not get wild shape until level 6 at which point it functions at level-2 except in the case of the shaman's specific animals where it functions at level+2.

Here is the FAQ

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1) Yes, and you add the weapon's attack modifiers (such as enhancement bonuses and feats) to the maneuver.
2) Yes, but you are not using your weapon at that point.
3) See #1
4) No, you cannot use a reach weapon against adjacent enemies (barring a special ability)

Nefreet, I had context, he did not. He provided no basis nor explanation for his statement and it was not part of the discussion up until that point.

Malachi, lets look at the order of things.

1) I posted a correct statement in response to the OPs post.
2) n00bxqb responded with what can only be interpreted as a comment saying that my statement was not correct.

Now, he did not provide enough information as to why he believed my statement was not correct so I could only assume he believed that 1 round spells do not equal (and thus use) a full-round action since that is the only information he provided.

Thus, I corrected that (assumed) belief with the rules which you are overlooking again by taking out of context my statement about the rules disagreeing with him.

Perhaps I missed the thrust of his point which, according to you, is that they do use a full-round action but do not mean the same thing but he did not state that and if that is the case it means he took my post out of context to begin with.

In any case, at no point did I state they were the same thing.
In my response to n00bxqb I stated that a 1 round spell uses a full-round action which, if anything, had nothing to do with his statement if his statement was not a contradiction of mine.
If his statement IS a contradiction of mine then my response statement was correct.

So, would you like to take anything else out of context?

Are you flat-footed or are you *considered* flat-footed? There is a big difference.

If you are flat-footed due to being slow (not having yet taken an action) at the start of combat then you cannot use an immediate action.

If you are considered flat-footed against a single attacker due to a special ability (such as Surprise Attack shown below) of the attacker then you are not actually flat-footed and can perform immediate actions.

CRB p69 wrote:
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.

In the case of Surprise Attack you are not actually flat-footed if you have acted already. However, the rogue is allowed to treat you as flat-footed thus enabling him to avoid taking AoO's from opponents and enabling him to sneak attack opponents even if they have already acted.

With all that said, it could be argued that you are not allowed to perform an immediate action in response to the Rogue since he is treating you as flat-footed.

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