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The player is correct, only the recipient of the spell gets a save. Creatures in the area of that spell (whether on another creature, an object, or a point in space) do not get a save.
Silence is a very effective spell for shutting down verbal spells but it takes a full round to cast it and the radius usually can be avoided by walking out of it and then casting your desired spell.
No, it isn't.
If what you are doing is taking a system which is designed for an 'average result' and then you are optimizing it so that you get an 'above average result' most of the time then you are trying to reduce the effect of dice or eliminate it entirely.
kyrt-ryder basically said as much when he said that he wants to take a (presumably normal) 45% success rate and turn it into an 80% success rate because he feels that 45% success rate means his character "really sucks" (rather than has a more or less average chance of success).
Some people want the illusion of dice rolling but they really just want to roflstomp anything they come into contact with. I guess that is fine, but why delude yourself with the illusion? Just get rid of the dice rolling, go to a diceless system, and then RP the roflstomping adventure without all the math.
If that is your sentiment why play a dice based game at all? There are diceless RPGs out there.
So lets answer that:STR: 14
Note: If you went the full dexterity route this would be an even better build. The 5pts put into Strength can be put into the other ability scores or, if you want to qualify for Power Attack you can drop STR to 13 and increase DEX to 14.
Level 1, qualify for TWF and for Keen Scent @level 3 (or ELdritch Heritage @3 by swapping Wis/Cha)
Your statement about magic items not being available is not part of the game system. The game assumes things are available at certain points. Specifically, a Small city will have a 75% chance of your +2 ability boosters while a Metropolis will have a 75% chance of having your +4 ability boosters.
You make the comment about walmart but the fact is if that is your problem then the problem is not the 15pb but how you choose to respond to magic item availability and how the game presumes certain items are available. That would be a different discussion entirely.
UnArcaneElection, please show me a build that requires two different ability scores with a 17 or higher as a feat prerequisite.
Generally, 13 or 15 is the requirement. Very few feats require higher than that. Having a 14 in 3 stats should easily meet that requirement when factoring in racials, levels, and equipment changes to the ability score.
Simply put, the idea that 15pb on a MAD character cannot meet feat pre-requisites is not true.
And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, that is actually not the case. Even with 15pb and a MAD character you can easily meet the requirements.
Level 1: 14+2(racial) = 16.
That will meet the requirements of just about any feat and that doesn't even include things like magic items bumping up your ability scores.
Simply put, 15pb doesn't make a difference to feat requirements.
Ryan Freire wrote:
And as I pointed out, that isn't actually the case. Sure, you have +1 less in your primary stat than a SAD class, but you also have +1 in another two stats that they don't have. That actually makes you a far more rounded character and I usually find that to be far more survivable than someone who focuses all their point buy on one stat.
But, feel free to point out any MAD class which does not benefit from having a 15PB with a total +mod of +6 vs a SAD character's +5 (of course, pre-race mods).
In scroll form, yes although there are a number of non-spell options that help.
No, it wasn't disingenuous, it is the classic example of a MAD class. I even stated that I doubt any MAD character would be that way but if you would like to provide an example of a different MAD class that would be harmed by 15PB then please do.
Assuming SAD characters are not going to screw themselves in areas that are not primary such as Con/Dex/Wis (which any GM will make them pay for) then we have the following:
So for 15pb they have a +1 above MAD.
Now, someone could drop ability scores in order to buff up that primary ability score but frankly, it is cheaper to do that at lower values thus the disparity is the same or even favors MAD.
MAD 15pb: 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
We are talking about a +1 in one or two stats over 15 PB. This is not 2nd edition where you needed very high ability scores to qualify for certain MAD classes.
I think the problem here is that people are expecting that +4 or +5 is a minimum ability score modifier for a successful 1st level character when in fact the system is not based on that.
A Paladin with an array of 14(16 w/race)STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 8WIS, and 14CHA is very functional.
Frankly, I doubt that there is a MAD character that wouldn't do just fine in any Pathfinder AP using that array.
That is why every group should have scrolls of remove paralysis by the time they will be facing things that reliably paralyze them.
Seriously, there are very few effects that a toolbox scroll doesn't fix and by the time you are hitting spells like Blasphemy you should have a decent number of them in your group. :)
PK the Dragon wrote:
Just a note: Rope Trick is not safe anymore, not like it was in 3.5. Just ask my players what happened when they used Rope Trick in a dungeon and the wandering monsters hit them in their sleep. (Several fatalities on that one.)
You must have a different group style than I am used to. Most of my groups come in with massive buffing.
Aside from the long duration stuff (Heroism, Magic Circle, Mage Armor, Barkskin, etc.) there is the short duration stuff. Know how long it takes to get that up and running? 1-2 rounds. Know how easy it is to buy that much time? 1 spell...Wall, Cloud, or D-Door, take your pick.
But it is that short duration stuff that typically kicks it over the top. And if the PCs wafflestomped all the encounters beforehand, they probably burned very little time and still have their long duration stuff up. They probably have all those short duration buffs they might've used already had they had a regular encounter instead of an easy encounter.
That difference between 15 and 25 point buy is the difference between hitting and missing 5-10% of the time or saving or failing 5-10% of the time.
When the game is predicated on average chances of something succeeding or failing then that 5-10% actually stacks up fast.
Stepping up the AI doesn't change anything because I always step up the AI. I play all monsters with the intelligence that befits the monster. It comes down to hits, misses, etc.
In any case, this is a general discussion and it will be full of our experiences and anecdotes. There is no hard evidence to be had here, it is formed based on experiences and mine are that every +1 can make a difference to the difficulty of an encounter. When you have PCs that are built very well you don't need to add insult to injury by giving them even more points.
PK the Dragon wrote:
Actually, it really does make a difference. Being able to throw EVERY buff your group has on the group for the BBEG fight regularly has the effect of negating that encounter as an effective encounter.
Now, if the PCs had used some of those buffs earlier on monsters that weren't total pushovers but not BBEG level either then, maybe, the BBEG would be the encounter it is supposed to be.
In short, yes, it does require more work because either you have to super-charge the BBEG to deal with this 'the PCs will just supercharge themselves' problem or you have to buff the regular encounters back up to 'regular' so that the PCs will use some resources on them. Heck, even super-charging the BBEG has issues, it is really easy to tip it over into the 'too hard for the PCs because they didn't actually do what you expected' territory.
Just much simpler to avoid the problem altogether by running the AP as it is designed, with 15point buy.
P.S. I keep referencing 15 point buy on the APs only because that is the only reference that matters. 15, 20, 25, 1million point buy doesn't matter for non-AP material because then the design of the adventure will be based on a different premise.
What self-respecting Fighter isn't going to use a trait to add +1 to his Will save? Seriously, there are very few traits that trump that one (for poor will save builds).
As for the 'cant afford a 12 Wisdom', sure you can. 14Str (5), 12Dex(2), 14Con (5), 12Wis (2), 12 Int(2), 9Cha(-1). Boom, ye ole man in a can. Add racial mods and you are done.
Suppress Charms and Compulsions also suppresses the Dominate 100% of the time for 10 minutes. Plenty long enough to kill the offending spellcaster or tie up the dominated fool and cart him off until you can effect a more permanent solution.
Seriously, most of the spells you have brought up do not need a juiced up PC to deal with. Some forethought and planning will do far better.
Level+5 = CR+4 in the case of creatures with no racial HD and class levels.Create BBEG with PC levels, such as a Human with 14 levels in Cleric, the CR is level-1 = 13.
Thus, to meet level+5 you generally need CR+4 (in the case of clerics).
Cole Deschain wrote:
If you bump only the hard encounters but not the easy ones then the PCs will have too many resources when they hit the hard encounters. You might as well switch to 1 encounter days since that has a similar effect.
I never said infinite equipment, just standard WBL or equipment rewards for the AP.Frankly, there are a number of ways to increase will saves that do not involve starting with a higher PB. Traits for example.
As for Blasphemy TPKing you? I think you are seriously overestimating it's effect. You are dazed for 1 round, maybe weakened. You are not going to be Paralyzed or Die from it (that would require CR+4 for PAralysis and CR+9 for Killed).
Some of your party should have strong Will saves and frankly, most Pathfinder AP spellcasters have poor DCs to begin with so about half of your party won't be dazed and can help defend the other half.
As for Color Spray, APs generally do not have opposition spellcasters until several levels into the AP. As a result sleep is off the table, but even the stunning effect should only hit about 1/4 of the group. Assuming your party is half-way spread out (normal deployment) then only half the group should be hit by the color spray. Only half of those should fail. DC here for a 1st level NPC wizard is only 14. Even a 1st level fighter has a decent chance of making that save. Figure the 1st level fighter has a +2 Will save (12 Wisdom, +1 from trait) then they need to roll a 12. That is a 45% chance of success. Highly doubtful your party will succumb to this.
Aside from your hyperbole about the spells I also think your logic here is circular. If you buff the monsters of course your player's PCs will need buffing. If you don't buff the monsters then no, they won't.
Bolding mine.I think this is the main point here. Many of us are probably talking past each other because some are talking AP while others are not.
APs are written for 15 pointbuy. If you use more, then yes, you will need to alter it.
With that said, I think most of the spells you listed are not as bad for a prepared group regardless of PB.
Cole Deschain wrote:
It isn't the "odd one-sided shellacking". When I first started running PF I allowed the players 25PB in a PF AP and nothing was a challenge for them. I had to adjust everything to bring it up to the challenge level it was supposed to be at. Could I have left it in easy mode? Sure, but then my group wouldn't have had a challenge.
Why would you have to babysit a party with normal saves? 15 PB is normal. 43 PB (your array) is not.Your solution is to basically give them a cakewalk adventure. Fine, you don't want to challenge them in any way that is your prerogative but that is not how Pathfinder AP's are designed. Pathfinder APs are easy enough without giving the PCs a higher PB.
PossibleCabbage, you just pointed out the issue right there. "this stuff is easy for the GM to adjust for if it's too much or too little".
Instead of putting the onus on the player, you have put it on the GM. Sure, it is 'easy' but it is also CONSTANT. Every single encounter has to be adjusted for. Over the course of a campaign that is a lot of work to account for a 5-10% increase that a PC really didn't need to begin with.
Frankly, you are putting extra work on the GM by wanting your high point buy. Isn't it just easier to go with the standard point buy (15) and plan accordingly?
You are flat out incorrect.Level 1 you can easily start with a Dex of 16 using 15point buy (14+2racial).
By level 6 your Dexterity would have been raised by +1 at level 4. This now qualifies you for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
By level 11 your Dexterity is now naturally an 18 (14+2race+2level). A +2 Belt of Incredible Dexterity will qualify you for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Alternately, you can increase your Dexterity to 19 at level 12 and get the feat at level 13.
In short, 15point buy is completely workable for a TWF build.
Pathfinder APs are based on 15point buy as the standard.
Elementals can make somatic gestures, they are generally humanoid in appearance. Plants, it would depend on the plant and GM determination. Some plant creatures are generally humanoid in appearance, others are not.
Between Natural Spell and a Ring of Eloquence you have both spellcasting and speaking covered.
Teeeeeeeeechnically, if the giant you assume the form of has regeneration 10, you don't get it. But ANY GM that tries to enforce that is being a jerk, and should give you regen 5.
This is completely contrary to the rules.
CRB p211 wrote:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
IOW: If the form has Regen 10 and the spell limits you to Regen 5 you get Regen 5.
My group is playing Rappan Athuk and they are level 11. So far there have been 40 fatalities and 3 TPKs (last TPK was level 8). Heck, one PC died twice in five minutes.
Frankly, it depends on your group, how the GM runs it, and what corner they turn. In RA the group could run into rats, or something so far above the party level that they better have a backup characters handy.
I don't recommend it as an add-on to any adventure where you want the PCs to stay alive. At least, not without some deus ex machina.
Burn doesn't do much damage.
In any case, it has no bearing on the grapple itself and that was what the OP seemed to be wondering with the question regarding turning into an elemental to escape.
Yes, you can activate supernatural abilities while grappled. Wildshape is a supernatural ability.
Rules: The grappled condition requires that you make a concentration check to use a spell or spell-like ability while grappled. (CRB p567)
Additionally, being smaller will make your life worse, not better, when trying to make a CMB check to escape a grapple. It may help Escape Artist checks if you gain dexterity.
As for elementals, there is nothing about being an elemental that will help you avoid or escape a grapple check unless it improves your CMB/CMD or Escape Artist skill.
Finally, Supernatural abilities (such as Wild Shape) do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. (CRB p221)
Yes, they are in each other's space. They are effectively immune to movement base AoOs. Cheesy, but it's the rules.
P.S. I was unable to find any threads where people stated that the RAW is other than 'yes it works'. There are plenty of people who say it is probably not RAI and is probably a badly worded feat.
Could you link the dissenting threads/posts?
Cory, I think you are missing the point of my comments addressed to Cavall.
I know how it works, you know how it works, most of the posters in this thread know how it works.
The point of my last post to Cavall is that I am asking Cavall to explain how he would do odd numbers of dice since he seems insistent on modifying the number of dice rather than multiplying the total.
My last post to you was me explaining what I was asking Cavall. I wasn't asking you a question, I stated what I was asking Cavall. I still want to know how Cavall plans on running an Empowered spell with an odd number dice.
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
An empowered fireball cast by a 7th level wizard is easy. You roll 7d6. Let's say you get 26. You add half of that number to the total to get the final empowered damage roll. So it would be 39. Save for half. Not that difficult. 26 x 1.5 gives you the same number. No big deal.
Yes, I, and most of the other people in this thread, know that. But Cavall is claiming he rolls half the dice in the case of 10d6 to get the empowered section of an empowered, maximized, fireball. So what does he do for half of 7d6?
How do you resolve an odd number of dice? Your 'simplicity' has two side effects.1) It alters the distribution of the results.
2) It makes things more complicated any time you have an odd number of dice.
It is difficult to provide an official ruling or a quote on something that does not exist.
Put another way, unless a rule states something happens, then it doesn't happen.
Cavall, it is the result that is multiplied by 0.5 and added again. Not the dice rolled (which is pre-result).
The rules disagree with you flat out. For them to agree with you it would have to say 'half of the dice' or something similar.
It says 'half of the normally rolled result'.
How this works:
(Note: for expediency you can combined steps 3 and 4 by multiplying the total from step 2 by 1.5.)
Empowered and Maximized Fireball:
This is effectively: ((Xd6)*0.5) + (X*6)
No, Acid Arrow changed to fire does not require a Spell Resistance check.
The lack of SR for Acid Arrow is because it is conjuration (creation). Changing it to fire does not change that it is conjuration (creation).
Magic Missile is force, it is not "energy" (in terms of elemental energy that the Efreeti bloodline is intending). You cannot change it to fire.
Lay on Hands is an ability that damages undead. Ergo it has been stated by the SKR post and then subsequently by this FAQ that it is positive energy.
The spell Judgment Light does not have any wording that it is positive energy nor that it damages undead so the same logic cannot be applied there. It does not state that it does not heal undead.
Finally, not all healing in Pathfinder is positive energy although it usually is.
Simply put, Judgment Light is a non-typed form of healing.
Saethori, from my understanding the reverse is true. Unless it states it does not heal undead then it is general healing and not positive energy based.
Do you have a citation that shows all healing is positive energy based unless it states it heals undead?
The recent FAQ on positive and negative energy define the the terms positive energy and negative energy but does not make the blanket statement that all healing is positive energy unless stated otherwise.
Glomgnar, I think when you said 'sacred means' you actually meant 'positive energy means' due to being an undead.
In the case of the Judgment Light spell it is not listed as a positive energy or negative energy effect and it is not stated to have different effects on living or undead. Thus, it should work just fine (unless there is a FAQ somewhere that I am missing).
One question: Is your inquisitor good, evil, or neutral (ie is your judgment profane or sacred)?
CoT adventure path spoiler:a Linguistics check is what is required to find out if there is hidden clauses in such a contract.
Council of Thieves part 4: The Infernal Syndrome page 12 wrote:
A DC 25 Linguistics check is enough to confirm that the contract has no hidden clauses that could be used against the PCs.
I suggest using the same thing although the DC would probably be lower. Reason for the DC possibly being lower for your application:
more CoT AP spoiler:
The contract was used to bind an Infernal Duke Pit Fiend
Ok, so there appears to be two issues here and one hinges on the other.
1) Does the bag appear full.
The 'empty' group has no rules support for this other than the idea that somehow 'extradimensional space' = 'empty appearance'.
2) What is the external volume of the bag.
It all hinges on whether you think it is empty or not.
My take is that clearly, as a magic item with a significant weight beyond what an empty non-magical sack weighs, it does not appear empty.
In fact, I bet if you poll people independent of this issue most people would have a vision of this as a not empty bag.
It is really when you want to stuff it into another bag that this becomes an issue.
Aranna, there is no missing dimension. We have both dimensions for a cylinder.
Yes, you are in house rule territory because you are adding rules here.
Adjudication is about determining what rule is correct, house rules are about filling in missing pieces. In this case you are using both, not just adjudication.
You are adjudicating adding a house rule to fill in the missing pieces.
The problem is we do not know it is an empty bag. In fact, it very much behaves as if it were not an empty bag because it is quite heavy for an 'empty bag'.
My adjudication avoids adding house rules.
You are absolutely correct, house rules do not apply here. Please show the rule that states you may compress an object into a smaller space.
As for Airgiodach's math, it is wrong. He is making assumptions not presented in the game.
All we are presented with is two dimensions.
As for scrunching up a cloth bag...how well do you scrunch up a full bag? Is it a full bag? Do you even know?
Again, you are in houserule territory by trying to do something that is not spelled out in the rules.
We are given two dimensions which probably spell out the dimensions of a cylinder and the weight. We are not told if it is compressible, you are making assumptions based on a non-magical, empty, cloth bag.