Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 236 posts (270 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 1 alias.
The plan is to transfer the text into InDesign on *Sunday* and hopefully place the artwork as well. Then I leave Tuesday for Europe... cutting it close!
Regarding Syan Stormtamer's comments, there will likely be space in the final version to add some additional restrictions to the soul weaver. The challenge is that, fundamentally, its versatile affords exploitation by power gamers. Ideally, there is a measure that automatically places some kind of ceiling on the benefits. The comparison to a magic item is a good one. I'll take a little bit of thought. And then there is always rule 0, or rule X, which says, yes you can do it, but for a terrible price!
just found this on here and if I'm not to late I'd like to be a part of your play testers. I've always enjoyed the concept of pact magic and i have a new campaign starting in a little over a week and i would love to give one of your occultists a shot.
There is still time. :-) The document will be undergoing editing over the next month and we'll surely be able to incorporate some last minute comments.
As Alexander alluded to, the reason we're cutting feedback a wee bit earlier than would normally be needed for a July pub date is because I'm off to Europe for 3 weeks (50% work, 50% touring). If anyone of you happen to be in Paris, Copenhagen, Warsaw or London....
Any Londoners?
I will make an effort to visit Chess and Bridge (on Baker St) and perhaps some other game shops while I'm there, as I have two days off.
As Alexander mentioned, we hope to offer folks the original legends in a separate book.
Toward that end, I transposed the legends from both Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic into a 6" x 9" book format. All in all, 66 legends take up 160 pages.
Now I wonder:
a) Do a short booklet with the top 20 or so best legends (as decided by my writing group, past reader responses, and you all) or
b) Simply keep all of the legends, but in a more expensive, longer, and perhaps less cohesive tome. Hmm...
Thoughts?
On another note, I'm oddly inspired to turn the top 20 stories into full-blown illustrated kids mini-books. I'm not being facetious. The original Grimm tales were dark. I can just image a little girl reading (or being read) the story of Mare Loviatha, which is an excellent reminder to be a good unselfish girl, lest she turn into an ugly black unicorn!
I used that term once in Secrets of Pact Magic, albeit right at the start, when describing the many ways people view the spirit realm. I hoped GMs would pick one (of the nine ideas) or make up their own.
Spirit Realm, Gray Realm, After Realm, the Waste... terms like these are a little more my personal preference in my own settings with regard to the spirits' lonely existence. But those are just mine. I imagine different groups would view the place differently.
The benefit of a term like Spirit Realm is that it's general and allows a GM to fit the material to a setting. Likely, many GMs will be using Golarion or something close, so my tendency to go with a neutral term.
Blah. I might have to do a blog now! Maybe I'll see if I can't get Dario to give me a soapbox on his pactmagic.com site to stand on or something.
I'm planning to launch a site using tools from Ning.com. It's really secure and looks pretty. It will be for the whole publishing company though, with several forums for the relevant topics. Alas, I spent much of the day preparing for my gaming group tomorrow! And I still need to read up about submarines and underwater explosives....
Best news EVAR! I was a huge fan of the original Secrets of Pact Magic and the Villains of Pact Magic expansion, and I'm thrilled to see this!
I'm starting a new campaign next week with my group, and I'd love to introduce pact magic options from the get-go, so please sign me up for the playtest! I also love a good round of theorycrafting (though I have less time than I'd like for it these days) so I'll do my best to help out!
Also, Dario, congratulations on the recent release of the Radiance RPG. I haven't had time to look it over as thoroughly as I'd like, but it looks fantastic.
(And one more thing, are the materials you posted on the now-defunct forums from the Radiance House website gone for good? I remember you had some new pact spirits there - one based loosely on the Twilight series, for example, that let you seduce vampires, succubi, and similar monsters - and it'd be great if you could bring them back somehow.)
Thanks for congrats on Radiance RPG. I haven't quite officially launched her yet, advertising wise. Still need to really set up a nice website and forum and... well, you all can imagine. It acts as sort of a gift for my spouse to consider acting as a GM. Maybe maybe! I also wanted to do something philanthropic. That's why the entire players guide PDF is free.
Specifically, the downloads include the rookblade class, malebolge devil, a new spirit and epic spirit, a prestige class, new feats, the vatic stirge (um, stirges are awesome Con killers, so why not give them supernatural pact magic!) and ...
Look under "Anima of the Outer Darkness" for 6 anima and a description of "Lilith’s Midnight Travelogue: A Guide to All That’s Left Behind".
I had to take down the forum due to constant assault by Turkish hackers who claimed they were against the use of magic. Really? Y'all turkeys know it's a game, right? :-p
I'm so glad to hear about this. i bought both the 3.5 pact magic books you made, and loved them all. My only problem with them was choice (having over 100 spirits to choose from made things so difficult...)
I'm actually welcoming the idea of a 'bitesize' version i can memorize, and thus not take up half the game session deciding who i'm bound to! (Playing a Soul Weaver made things even worse. If spirit selection was long, spell selection was painful!)
Yes. I have a tendency to be overly complete. I suppose my students don't mind it, as I cover everything that's going to end up on the test, for example. But it can mean too many options!
In practice, a GM might introduce different supplements as a binder PC "unlocks" them during the course of a campaign.
I own the original books, and a player for my upcoming "Way of the Wicked" campaign is interesting in playing a pact magic user, so we would love to playtest the new version!
The new material still makes room for the old material if you like. For example, the new book heavily emphasizes archetypes over base classes. Some of the old classes aren't quite up to snuff power wise or list the right skills, etc. But others like the unbound witch are probably still quite playable if for some reason one prefers that.
Perhaps closer to my heart, the original books have the legends in their original length. The new book simply couldn't keep to a 64-page supplement and include all those legends, from Azazati to Prince Oszen and Vandrea. I really want to put the better stories into an anthology, a kind of binders companion book that also happens to be accessible to non-gamer friends and loved-ones.
I use the material weekly in three Pathfinder games, and have been running from the old books using the conversion guide. I have played four binder and other binding class characters and am very interested to see what you do with the ruleset.
As I am without an active group at this point, there's not a lot of playtesting I can do right now, but if you want some theorycraft-work, hook me up. Loved the books, and if you ever want to hear about what a 60 HD Savrok Cyclopes can do to a group of Epic level PCs, let me know.
Ah, the Savrok construct, with 4 brains for 4 standard actions per round, with 13 disintegration eye rays and 13 ghost touch tentacles, fast healing and immunity to magic, and a 9th-level bound spirit to boot. Yes, she's a beaut. He he he.
Now, advance that from 26th level to 60 HD. Gosh. I left they were crying and gnashing their teeth over that one. :-)
Sorry, this a little off topic, but I was checking your website out for RPG stuff. I was bit surprised to find that you had also written the Meyers-Brigg book with Linda Berens that I studied in one of my graduate courses last semester. Good stuff.
It's true! Besides a dozen of those books, I do workshops around neuroscience of personality. It all pays the bills to make the extra-fun stuff possible. Glad you enjoyed them :-).
Creating "Secrets of Pact Magic" etc. has been one of the creative highlights of my life. Alas, it was a d20 System product born at the transition to Pathfinder RPG. Though SoPM didn't need much conversion, the fact is Paizo and its fans have taken the system in new directions. After much pestering by certain persons (who may not remain nameless!), now is the time :-).
Alexander has done an incredible job spearheading this project. I've been extra-impressed and am delighted to stand by him now. This brand spanking new baby will be just as illustrated, professional, and orthogonal as the originals (I don't take credit for the orthogonal part; pact making from the real world is just that way).
Naturally, a 64-page circumscription presented a challenge. Alexander mainly translated the favorites. A second supplement can add a lot more :-).
I'll be making an effort to pop in every day to read and respond.
I'd add that Tome of Magic presents 8 levels of vestiges (spirits) over 20 class levels, while Secrets of Pact Magic presents 9 levels of spirits over 20 levels. So technically, there is a slight power differential that makes the two books incompatible. Personally, I think it's minor and OK because some folks have complained that the higher level vestiges in ToM are surprisingly weak.
In Secrets of Pact Magic (and the later Villains book), each spirit has a constellation, favored allies and enemies, tactical bonuses, etc. Features of some of the classes like Pact Warrior and Foe Hunter rely on these characteristics. A GM would need to improvise when using the Tome of Magic vestiges. Oh, the constellations are fantasy not real-world.
SoPM also presents anima spirits, which differ from both vestiges and the constellation-based spirits. So there is room in a campaign settling for multiple approaches to binding.
I could not include anything in the original book about compatibility with Tome of Magic because that would violate "d20 System" rules. Oh, how quaint that sounds now. But the free FAQ on the website's download page covers the topic.
At PaizoCon I and II I had the pleasure of running a game; PaizoCon III will be a great opportunity to page through hard copies in person.
And to answer a question above, pact magic as presented in Tome of Magic was adapted largely from real world stuff presented at sites like http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demon_goetia.asp.
One last thing before I go. From reading some of the posts, there may be a misconception of what I imagined for Fate Points and Fate Powers. It's not just about relabling Curse so that a good Witch can perform the opposite effect on her ally and thus needs renamed Fortune in this instance. This is actually one effect of this but I imagine it being more like a Barding Music type ability and the main ability of the class. These powers would be acquired as the Witch levels up and would serve many uses similar to Bardic Music. Spending a Fate Point could have any one of the possible effects if the Witch is high enough level to use it.
These mostly affect probability and tie into the luck/fortune aspect of the class. This, I feel, would be the reason for the class to exist as opposed to it just being some tweener class that doesn't really excel at anything. I've seen some PrCs that have used this idea but I haven't come across any base classes like it yet and I think the Witch is perfect for it. Without something...
Okay, yes, I sort of missed this before. On the one hand I like the flexibility it gives; on the other hand, it feels more tactical than I imagine the witch to be. I bet we could create a sorcerer bloodline or something similar that works off of fate points.
Edit: On 2nd thought, I think a Fateweaver PrC along these lines would be perfect, especially if it had relatively low-level entry.
As for the brew potion feats, I agree that in order to brew powerful potions on a regular basis, several feats are needed. Really and truly.
I'm sorry everyone I haven't commented more today. I've been working on my next iPhone app and enjoying some of the beautiful weather in So Cal today.
Elemental resistance spells at early levels, perhaps dependent on the Witch's directional focus. Also maybe spell, enchantment type that either dazes or seduces people who want to hurt her. I'd say circles of protection at lower levels but that seems powerful.
TTFN DRE
Great ideas. Wow, "hit me and you might be dazed!"
Also, psions have some powers like danger sense, demoralize, and ectoplastic form that provide interesting defenses.
Looking at various instances of the witch, I see that witches tend to have poor armor class. I mean really poor with some exceptions.
Here's what the other classes have.
Wizard and Sorcerer: The mage armor and shield spells feel inappropriate... these spells are inspired by battle. Wizards will usually have one of these and sorcerers may or may not.
Cleric: Cleric armor spells are weak but clerics already wear armor.
Druids: They have barkskin as a 2nd-level spell and not much else, but they wear armor.
One option is to give witches the cleric defensive spells or something similar. Maybe give them sanctuary plus a protective amulet spell that grants a bonus to AC similar in progression to shield of faith. This might be the more reasonable choice.
Another option is to give them no armor defense spells but give them a bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus, sort of like the monk. This option sounds sexy (metaphorically speaking) but might be unbalanced.
A third option is to give them nothing--after all, they need some weakness in light of their benefits. I don't like this option so much.
My hope is that the witch class sees print in the next 2 months as a Pathfinder RPG compatible product. I have a lot of spells that seem to go well with a witch, and I love the hexblade and feel he needs an upgrade too.
I bring the project to the boards because feedback really adds a lot. I hope for folks to actually like the class and feel that it fits with Pathfinder. When I finalize things, if I see a place where I feel I would be using someone else's intellectual properly, they'll hear from me.
As for the class itself... sorry but this is mostly me thinking aloud and might be sort of tedious...
We could approach the witch from an in-game sociological perspective. A witch could be from any class and result from marginalization, unusual training, or so forth. That's great, it breaths depth in a campaign world, and it largely works with Pathfinder as-is, though some extra sorcerer bloodlines could be quite helpful.
On the other hand, I suspect that someone who comes to Pathfinder (do we say D&D anymore?) knows better than we do what a witch is. We here all sort of suffer from the connoisseur effect. A newbie likely thinks that witches have pointy hats and black cats and flying brooms and cauldrons and spells. They think of Bewitched or Harry Potter or what not. I think that's a fair way to approach the class so long as it's not silly or heedlessly disrespectful to folks who know actual witch traditions.
A nice idea, in my opinion, is the witch as progenitor spell caster (as mentioned above). In this scenario, all other spell casting traditions hail from her. True witches know they are the root of everything. They rediscover the old ways, getting to the core of magic, and practice it to the best of their abilities.
Along with this, I also like the idea that witch magic works from a sense of connectedness--everything links to everything else. From this perspective, a wizard's approach of collecting and learning spells as objective entities is relatively impersonal, disconnected, and industrial (a textbook of spells, learnable by all who study hard!). Merlin casts THE fireball spell, while Morgan casts HER fireball spell. Someone mentioned this idea above. It could explain why witch magic is best practiced with other people, why she has a patron or some similar meaningful connections, why she casts spells from all other classes, and why she tends to be subtle and less flashy and nature-oriented (nature epitomizes a systems mindset). This is what may help define the class in a deep way.
As for expanding spell lists as new products come out... a feature of the witch is that she can dabble across artificial prescribed boundaries. How about a feat, or small set of feats, that grants a witch wider access to another class's spell list? Not so much to be unbalancing. Maybe she can pick two spells to add to her book (or whatever) and maybe she casts them at somewhat lower level, but this would allow growth over the years.
In general and a perfect world I'd agree with you, but since my prefered GR Witch may not be updated to Pathfinder, and its doubtful if any 3pp version of the Witch will ever get popular enough to have a base line spell list, we have to go with the types of spell list that already exist. AS to quirky things, lets face it Players are going to do that no matter what.
A sort of tangential thought...
Sometimes GMs are not comfortable with new, 3rd-party spells even if they like a class design.
Maybe there isn't one witch spell list. Instead, there are different books--like the spell books presented in Dragon Magazine over the years, each one containing spells belonging to a particular (in)famous caster or a focused theme.
The main book contains only spells from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Other books contain new spells, and a GM may make some available while excluding others. The differences aren't formalized by school or anything, just thematic and more easily tailored to particular campaign worlds.
I like the idea of spell DCs modified by the witch's relationship to the subject. It highlights the unusual nature of her magic. It's very witchy.
Intimate Insight (Ex): A witch's magic is personal and is most potent when applied to those she knows best. Whenever one of the witch's spell targets a creature and allows saving throw, modify the spell's DC according to the chart below. Modifiers stack to a maximum benefit of +1 per 4 witch levels (minimum 1).
DC Modifier Knowledge
-1 None
+0 Secondhand (witch has heard of the subject)
+1 Firsthand (witch has met the subject before)
+1 Familiar (witch knows the subject well)
+1 Possession (witch has personal item or piece of body that belongs to the subject)
+1 Fetish (subject has item on them belonging to the witch)
This places the witch at a slight disadvantage in the standard dungeon delve and most minions, but makes her more potent on urban adventures or against the BBEG.
I'm thinking of adding Knowledge (geography) to the witch's list of class skills and allowing the witch to make skill checks to locate lay lines that can enhance some of her abilities.
To modify the cauldron potion feature:
Before using this ability, a witch may attempt a DC 15 Knowledge (Geography) check to find the nearest invisible "lay line" to boost the ceremony. On a successful check, the witch learns an ideal location within 1d10 miles, and if she conducts the ceremony there, she gains one additional level of spell for the purpose of selecting which spells are delivered by the potion. Lay lines shift, sometimes greatly, requiring a new check each day.
Okay, a stab at a more generic fate (curse/charm) ability:
Dweomer of Fate (Su):
Spoiler:
Dweomer of Fate (Su): A witch gains a pool of fate points equal to one-half her level (minimum 1). Beginning at 1st level, she can expend one fate point to target a creature as a free action. If the witch's patron grants her access to cure spells, then she may deliver a charming boon to the creature. Otherwise, she may deliver a hideous curse. She my deliver the fate by uttering a profanity, blowing a kiss, giving the evil eye, or making no discernible gesture at all.
When delivering a curse, the target must be within 60 feet and line of sight. On a failed Will save, the target suffers a -2 penalty on all dice rolls for 1 hour; or if it makes its save, for 1 round. This is a curse effect. Penalties from multiple applications of this ability do not stack. However, curses (from spells and magic items) do stack.
When delivering a boon, the target must be within 30 feet and line of sight. The target enjoys a +1 bonus on all dice rolls for 10 minutes. Moreover, the witch may keep one ally at a time with whom she is on intimate terms; this ally is referred to as her beloved. Intimacy refers to romantic relations or a blood pact. Initiating the beloved takes 1 hour and the choice cannot be changed unless the beloved dies. The beloved enjoys a +2 bonus (instead of +1) from the boon. A boon is an enchantment effect. Benefits from multiple boons do not stack.
At higher levels, a witch can deliver more potent curses and boons and activate abilities that require two or more fate points.
Greater Dweomer of Fate (Su): At 7th level, a witch can more readily twist fate. When delivering a curse, she can expend 2 fate points such that the target suffer a -4 penalty on dice rolls or is frightened (as the witch desires); and even if a target saves, it still suffers a -2 penalty on dice rolls for 2 minutes. Conversely, when delivering a charm, the witch can expend 2 fate points such that the targeted ally enjoys a +2 bonus on dice rolls for 10 minutes (or a +4 bonus if the ally is her beloved).
Dire Dweomer of Fate (Su): At 19th level, a witch can truly twist fate to her will. When delivering a curse, she can expend 3 fate points such that the target suffer a -6 penalty on dice rolls or is panicked (as the witch desires) or suffers a bestow curse effect, as the spell. Even if a target saves, it still suffers a -4 penalty on dice rolls for 2 minutes. Conversely, when delivering a charm, the witch can expend 3 fate points such that the targeted ally enjoys a +3 bonus on die rolls for 10 minutes (or a +6 bonus if the ally is her beloved).
A slight revision to Supernatural Patron:
Spoiler:
Supernatural Patron: At 1st level, a witch selects an otherwordly patron. The patron is usually an outsider type creature, immortal and powerful but not divine.
A typical patron is a demon lord, fey monarch, or solar, although less powerful patrons are possible. It is not unusual for evil or chaotic creatures (perhaps even the patron's minions) to falsely represent themselves. The patron is a focus for admiration, homage, and guidance. A high level witch might view herself as the patron's lover, and sometimes this is true. The witch's reason for selecting her patron varies with her background. The patron may have visited her once, or sent a vision or messenger, or worked through other witches. In the event the witch's patron is slain or otherwise gone, the witch may select a new patron.
A witch's choice of patron affects the spells she can access. A non-evil witch with a non-evil patron may select access to cure spells; otherwise, the witch may select access to inflict spells. The choice, once made, cannot be changed except if the witch's patron changes.
I have to admit, I'm not sold on alignment-based options. Arcane magic is inherently agnostic, and while the mechanics make sense (the patron whispers the spell knowledge, so-to-speak, and thus limits what the witch learns), I'd like to think I can make a chaotic good witch who curses evil foes, or a neutral evil witch who gives a lucky charm to her lover but only curses for everyone else. An option is that a curse costs 2 fate points for a good witch and a charm costs 2 fate points to an evil witch?!
This approach eliminate the need for the witch's circle feature.
Give the Witch the ability to summon a special Cauldron 1/month that ups the power of the potions and/or alchemical items she creates at the cost of some of her other abilities.
General Idea: Witch summons the cauldron on the night of a full moon, speaking her sinister words of magic, she makes a poison out of scorpion legs, spider fangs, and bat wings that, for arguments sake, would be a DC14 ingested poison that deals 1d6/1d6 con/con damage on a normal creation day. However, this batch of poison has a DC16 save and adds +1 to the con damage done.
Mechanics: The bonuses granted to the special cauldron creation are provided by giving up a spell slot, or multiple spell slots, for an entire month. Cost is 1 level of spell slot per +1 bonus. In the example above, the witch gives a +2 to the DC of the poison and a +1 to damage. Thus, the witch would have to give up a 3rd level spell slot for a month. Or, you could give up a 2nd and a 1st level spell slot as well. (or 3 1st).
The items created in this fashion only last a month before they crumble to dust, turn to water, etc... When the 30 days has expired, the witch gets her spell slots back and any items created in this way become useless.
Just an idea.
:D
I like the idea of continuing the potion brewing theme at a higher level. The feature below combines multiple feats but is only usable 1/month. If a witch wants to do this kind of brewing more often, she would take the requisite feats.
Cauldron Potion (Su): Once per month under a full or new moon, a witch can conduct a special ceremony using a masterwork cauldron to brew a potent potion. This works like the Brew Potion feat, except the brewing costs nothing, takes only 1 hour, can deliver effects of multiple spells, and can deliver spells up to 6th level. Also, the witch may apply meta-magic effects to the spells. The total spell levels must be equal to or lower than the highest level witch spell that the witch can cast. For example, a 12th-level witch has access to 6th-level spells and could brew a potion that combines contagion and poison (both 3rd-level spells for a witch). The witch prepares and casts the spells as usual, and she must possess any relevant meta-magic feats except for Heighten Spell, which she gains temporary access to for the duration of the ceremony.
Lucky is a mechanical impact but I was going for a different overall flavor, I guess. Luck and fortune is that flavor as opposed to the class that curses you. Witches are know for curses but I felt it restricts the class to the level of "any non-good" when you're almost assuredly going to have to go "any non-lawful" to begin with. It can also, as I read earlier in this thread, offend those that practice witchcraft. Luck and fortune is more universal and can be used to help and heal (the good witch) or hinder and harm (the bad witch). It could be open to those of any alignment as it should be if possible.
I also held back on the Wildshape quite a bit too. Someone earlier brought this up and I thought they had a good point. Witch isn't really the class to use Wild Shape to turn into some big attack creature. It's usually only used as a stealthy disguise or get away.
Just so you know, the Curse wasn't removed, it was just rolled into the Fate class feature. Obviously, any witch who strays more towards evil will use Curse-like abilities with their Fate Points and good witches will use bardic music-like boosts to help her allies in battle if she so desires. Other uses of Fate Points would include rerolling (or allowing an ally to reroll) a failed roll again playing off the whole fate/luck idea. Granting a bonus to a skill check, save, attack roll etc would be an obvious one as well. Later on she could get some kind of Stun effect from this as that would fit the theme.
I didn't think about it long enough to decide whether the Bardic Music mechanic would work better than the Monks Ki Point mechanic for this purpose. I guess it would depend on what other kinds of uses could be tied into the Fate ability.
I was in a hurry and missed the overall idea.. I agree that the Fate concept can be applied to the class, with curse or bless (called by another name), which both more Pathfinder and more flexible.
I also like the mass baleful polymorph concept. It was trying to work it in with curse of the land feature, but that's ended up being fairly complicated.
I can see trackless step as a witch feature, but in the limited economy of class features, I wouldn't put priority on animal empathy, unless there's an either/or option somewhere.
The generic spellcaster can choose to be divine or arcane, casts as a sorcerer, and chooses from cleric, druid, and sorcerer spell lists. You could houserule that she could replace her 1st-level bonus feat with an arcane bond/familiar.
In Pathfinder terms, even with skill merging and unlimited cantrips, the generic spellcaster would be a very strong NPC class, but probably a little weaker than a PC class. I like it better than the adept because it's more flexible for a DM... when you're writing up modules, just make the she-cultists of Diana divine spellcasters with entangle and the gnomish herbalist hedge-wizards of Thure arcane spellcasters with lesser restoration.
Yeah, I wish a little more was done with the NPC classes in Pathfinder to keep them subpar and easy, yet a little more flavorful, particularly in the way you suggest. Even one unusual bonus spell that's outside the norm can make a big difference flavor wise.
I like the idea and the only things I would add are:
1: Keep her arcane.
2: make use of the circle magic feats and powers from Rasheman and Halruua in the forgotten realms setting. (Pre fourth edition)
3: take a good hard look at the Hathran class for your witch because as far as my limited research into this topic goes the witches of rasheman are as close to "witches" as the settings allows and it has some good ideas for spells and powers. I dislike the whole tied to the land thing but for that class in that setting it works.
4: don’t be afraid to look at the splat books for second edition as source material. I had a player that wanted to be a 'witch" so I gave her her own spell list from a second edition arcana supplement and spells 1st lvl "fire cage" or 2nd lvl "pit" were shocking to other players because they were outside of the D&D world and added an air of mystery to a class. The player loved it 10yrs later she still has fond memories of the game.
5: shape change should be limited to 3 forms at most but be usable more times per day.
The witch was rarely ever a combat shape changer more of a fast travel, sneak out of town type.
6: Make a definite distinction between a “good” witch and an “evil” witch. Evil curses and kills good witches are limited healers and curse breakers.
That’s my thoughts on the topic
Steven,
Thank you for the input.
I've returned the witch to arcane casting. Just too many things like a familiar point to arcane.
I'm not too familiar with Forgotten Realms. Could you say a little more about the circle magic feats and powers from Rasheman and Halruua?
2nd edition. I still some of those books around... let me dig them out!
Interesting idea about the shape change. Your suggestion fits the witch archetype a little bit better. The Pathfinder rules for wild shape (and beast shape, etc spells) don't help out in the hit point department, meaning the witch would be very unwise to wade into combat as a bear.
I'm not totally sure how to reconcile arcane spellcasting with good witch / bad witch except in spell descriptors and the witch's choice of patron. Hmm... I could expand on the patron part a wee bit, such that the patron grants alignment-based access to certain spells. If you pick a good patron, you get access to cure spells; if you pick an evil patron you get access to inflict spells; or if neutral patron, then select one or the other as a one-time choice.
I have one nag about your Witch class. It just seems way too DND 3.5 for me. It would probably fit perfect in a 3.5 campaign but just doesn't seem Pathfindery enough for me. Here's my suggestion (which was based on yours) for what my vision of a Pathfinder Witch would be like. Maybe I should name the abilities differently to better convey what they do.
** spoiler omitted **...
I only have a moment's break, but this is what I wrote yesterday about the cooperative spellcasting and witch's circle. As you'll see, the cooperative one is done in a way that a PC witch would find useful and it doesn't rely on NPCs (unless she wants to). And the witch's circle is an in-combat aura effect.
Cooperative Magic:
Cooperative Magic (Su): Beginning at 8th level, a witch can conduct a 10-minute ritual once per day in order to boost one of her spells. At least two allies must join her in the ceremony. These allies must have at least half the witch's Hit Dice, and the witch's familiar does not count as an ally for the ritual. The witch can select a spell she prepared earlier in the day or a spell from her book of shadows. In the latter case, the selected spell automatically replaces a previously prepared spell of the same level. The ceremony consumes 10 gp worth of materials per spell level. At the conclusion of a successful ceremony, the witch augments the spell. Select one augmentation from the list below.
-- Increase by 2 the DC to resist the spell.
-- Increase by 4 the witch's check to overcome a target's spell resistance for the spell.
-- One target (of the witch's choice) that is affected by the spell is also targeted with one of the following spells: bestow curse, confusion, contagion, deep slumber, dimensional anchor, dismissal, fear, hold person, poison, or suggestion (as selected by the witch while conducting the ceremony). The selected bonus spell effect must be in the witch's book of shadows but she does not need to have prepared it and the spell effect is added without subtracting from her spell reserve for the day.
-- The spell automatically succeeds on checks to effect incorporeal opponents.
-- The spell gains an alignment descriptor (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful).
-- The spell effects mindless creatures as if they were not mindless.
-- Add 2 to the spell's effective caster level.
-- The spell can be cast as a move action while making a Perform check, and the spell's DC equals the Perform result.
-- As a free action just before casting the spell, the witch becomes invisible and remains invisible (as if affected by greater invisibility) until the end of her next turn.
-- For 3 rounds after casting the spell, the witch enjoys a +2 bonus on her saving throws.
When a cooperative magic ritual is performed at midnight with 5 or more allies and 10x the usual cost of materials, the witch can select two augmentations rather than one. As usual, allies must have at least half the witch's Hit Dice, and the witch's familiar does not count as an ally for the ritual.
Witch's Circle:
Witch's Circle (Su): Beginning at 14th level, a witch can forfeit one of her daily uses of the curse ability to aid allies and hamper foes. The witch projects a 40-foot-radius supernatural aura. All allies within the aura enjoy a +1 luck bonus on dice rolls and an additional +4 luck bonus to resist curse and compulsion effects; at the same time, all opponents within the area suffer a -1 penalty on their dice rolls and an additional -4 penalty to resist curse and compulsion effects.
I feel the luck feature you mention is useful, but has mechanical impact rather than flavor flavor impact, and my preference is to go for anything that creates "big moments."
The perfect flight ability is neat. I'll look into where I could put that.
Okay, this is going to be a long winded answer to what is at its heart a pretty simple question. I apologize, and I hope it makes some sense when I'm done.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. I understand a desire to have some of the witch's mystique reflected in the class's mechanics. I'm just not sure how to implement it.
Here are some options:
A witch can keep a book of shadows, and that book is NOT usable by wizards (nor are wizard spell books usable by witches). A witch's book is written in a way that is intuitive, metaphorical, holistic, and personal. It might not even be magical.
Another method is the witch learns spells and prepares them, but there is no spell book at all. All the spells are in her head. Or maybe each spell is represented in a different way (amulet for one spell, tiara for another, on bones for several others, on a tooth for yet another, etc).
A witch might be like a shaman or shahir (from Dragon Magazine's update of the al-Qadim campaign setting) or a combination of both. Perhaps the witch selects spells each day through her familiar, who makes a request to the witch's patron (on another plane of existence) for any particular spell she names from the witch spell list. But the witch is not assured of getting that spell in a timely fashion.
We could do a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous casting. A witch can prepare spells from a book of shadows, and she also knows a few spells that she can use spontaneously (sort of like a cleric's ability to cast cure/inflict spells spontaneously.)
What else.... In later 3.5, new methods were introduced. The warmage and dread necromancer and beguiler had closed spell lists from which they could cast spontaneously. I played a dread necromancer for 13 levels and found this method was pretty balanced. Sometimes Cal was amazing, and sometimes he was totally lame, but there was no question that he was always a necromancer.
I'm prone to stay within the style of Pathfinder rather than branch back to 3.5's later years. The 3.5 warlock is pretty unique for 3.5, and fairly reminiscent now of 4th Edition. And the binder: well, I have a lot to say about that class, but that's a different project.
Perhaps a witch should have multiple methods of doing spells, all sort of messed up and seemingly inefficient, yet granting her access to multiple spell lists in a way that other casts can only dream of.
Honestly, the sorcerer/druid hybrid arcane class is what I was hoping for. I'm not really interested in a divine class. Its not that I can't see it, but its kind of like any other arcane class that's interested in the divine . . . that's what multi-classing is for.
Yeah, sorcerer/druid was my first interest too. So how did I end up with the witch above.... As folks suggested witch ideas, I realized the witch is many things, and the Pathfinder is a far cry (and huge improvement!) from the old sorcerer. You can do almost anything with a sorcerer now.
That said, how could we build a witch druid/sorcerer hybrid?
-- change the class spell list
-- alter the class skills
-- select an appropriate bloodline (fey, hag, lycanthrope, genie, legacy, as usual for sorcerer)
-- reduce spells/day per level by 1
-- allow the witch sorcerer to use a spell book to prepare a small number of spells each day (to offset fewer spells/day)
A lycanthrope bloodline would grant wild shape (into animals only), while a genie bloodline would grant elemental wild shape, and a plant bloodline would grant plant wild shape. Keep in mind, a sorcerer can select spells to mimic wild shape, so ultimately this sorcerer could look pretty much like a druid.
Some might suggest adding 1 or 2 minor features to compensate for the witch's "weaker" spell list, but I'd prefer to add sufficient druid and cleric spells to make it yummy.
Is this more what you were looking for? If so, I think it's another way to approach the witch that's quite viable.
As for the divine witch above, she doesn't really need to be divine. Remove the aura and say "arcane" and it's the same thing. But of course it's then a prepared caster rather than a spontaneous one.
OK, having worked on this a bit, I've decided there was insufficient overlap to properly merge the Hag bloodline with the hexblade ideas. Instead, I've worked up two separate bloodlines -- each of which is independent to any Witch base class that you might come up with. I've spoilered them due to length.
HAG
** spoiler omitted **...
Kirth,
How about "Legacy" or "Accursed" for the hex bloodline?
Okay, three fairly minor but flavorful class features...
Supernatural Patron: At 1st level, a witch selects an otherwordly patron. The patron is usually an outsider type creature, immortal and powerful but not divine. The selection of patron grants the witch an aura that corresponds to the witch's alignment. This works like a cleric of the same level. A typical patron is a demon lord, fey monarch, or solar, although less powerful patrons are possible. It is not unusual for an evil or chaotic patron's lesser minions to misleadingly represent themselves as the patron. A witch rarely worships her patron. More often, the patron is a focus of admiration, homage, and guidance. A high level witch might view herself as the patron's lover, and sometimes this is true. The witch's reason for selecting her patron varies with her background. The patron may have visited her once, or sent a vision or messenger, or worked through other witches.
Supernatural Lore: At 9th level, a witch automatically adds the spells augury, divination, and lesser planar ally to her book of shadows if these spells are not already present. She must still prepare these spells as normal. When the witch casts these spells, assume the spells rely upon or summon a representative of her patron.
Supernatural Alliance: At 13th level, a witch automatically adds the spells commune, planar ally, and greater planar ally to her book of shadows if these spells are not already present. She enters these spells into her book of shadows even if she is not yet eligible to cast them. She must still prepare these spells as normal. Assume the spells rely upon or summon her patron or a representative of her patron.
Watcher's comments really pull me in a direction I'm tending toward.
Good deal! You guys work on a new witch base class; I'll work on a Hag Bloodline for sorcerers; at the end we can compare notes. The game is definitely big enough for both!
Watcher's comments really pull me in a direction I'm tending toward.
Going with a witch as a divine prepared spellcaster helps make the class meaningfully different from a spontaneous arcane caster. It could work sort of like this:
Arcane Bond: Like a wizard, a witch selects either familiar or bonded item at 1st level.
If the witch selects a familiar, the creature is the source of the witch's knowledge; she learns new spells from the familiar and if she loses the familiar, she cannot learn any new spells until she replaces it.
If the witch selects a bonded item, the item acts as a compass and mental focus to sources of new knowledge; like loosing a familiar, she can only learn new spells if she possesses the bonded item and it is not damaged.
Book of Shadows: A witch prepares spells each day from a book in a manner similar to a wizard. The witch is a divine spellcaster, but relies on this book. A witch starts play with a book that contains all witch cantrips plus three 1st-level witch spells and one additional witch spell per point of Intelligence bonus of the witch's choice. At each level, the witch adds 2 more spells reflecting what she has learned with the aid of her familiar or bonded item.
At any one time, a witch may possess and prepare spells from more than one book of shadows. In fact, there are many witch books, each focusing on a different theme of spells.
Beyond this, I am tempted to add an "otherworldly patron" feature. The selection of patron grants the witch an aura (apropos to divine spellcasters). At later levels, the witch automatically adds the lesser planar ally and commune spells (if not already in her book) to interact with her patron or an avatar or representative thereof. Unlike a cleric's deity, the patron is a non-divine creature (such as a demon lord or solar) and the witch doesn't necessarily worship the patron; more often, it (or one of its allies) will become her lover or mentor instead).
OK, here is a stab at the witch.
Keep in mind the biggest "purpose" of the class is its unique spell list (nonflashy mix of druid and wizard), which is not shown here.
BASICS Focus: Mostly charm and nature themed spells plus curses, potions, shape change, coven magic, and fear.
BAB: Poor
Hit Die: d6
Saves: Good Will
Skill Points: 4 skill points / level
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (In), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Spells: 0th-9th
Weapons/Armor: No armor, wizard weapons
Spell List: unique witch spell list
ABILITIES Curse: Free action against 1 target, Will negates; target suffers -2 penalty on all die rolls for 1 hour (or 1 round if save).
Cantrips: As other spellcasters.
Arcane bond: As wizard.
Brew potion: As the feat, granted 1 level earlier than normally possible.
Wild Shape: As druid but animal or magical animal only.
Greater Curse: As curse but -4 penalty (or, if witch chooses, target is frightened instead).
Cooperative Magic: Lead allies in 10 minute ritual to boost witch's magic in one or more ways.
Monstrous Form: Briefly acquire form and stats of a monstrous humanoid, giant, or shadow creature.
Witch's Circle: Aura applies boon to allies and curse to enemies within area.
Curse the Land: Creates a temporary supernatural terrain zone.
Dire Curse: As curse but -6 penalty (or, if witch chooses, target panicked).
Questions:
Arcane or divine magic? I'm now tempted to say divine magic, but source of magic prohibits all armor.
Prepared or spontaneous casting? I'm tempted to say prepared and relies on a "book of shadows".
If spontaneous, then the witch could refer to a special book to gain a spell or three each day to cast from the book.
Maybe allow the "curse" ability to be either a curse or boon?
Kirth, great ideas. A hag bloodline, yay! Which reminds me, bloodlines for trolls, lycanthropes, and giants might also be apropos.
Personally, I really like the battle sorcerer and cloistered cleric and some of the other UA variants.
Matthew Morris: Striga is a great name and could fill a spot between witch (poor combatant) and "hexblade" (good combatant). A striga might like a cross between witch, rogue, and monk with progression like a bard.
I've been away for a few days finishing up stuff for a work deadline (an iPhone application, yay!). Thank you everyone who has continued the conversation.
I totally forgot about the 1e witch, and yes I too love the Unbound Witch from Secrets of Pact Magic ;-). </shameless plug>
The PfRPG sorcerer doesn't quite do it for me as a witch. Let me say that yes, the Pathfinder classes now cover a huge swath of concepts compared to 3.5. It's immensely richer, and the fey sorcerer can go a long way. Hats off with joy! But the sorcerer has no access to druid spells, and a number of druid spells feel pretty essential, though I am pressed to explain why beyond a vague feeling.
Looking at the various books for the witch... a number of them present multiple paths (thematic specializations), each path practically a class in its own right. I don't think I want to get into all that.
So, here's the scoop: I have a bunch of new witch spells (50 pages worth) and a desire to get everyone a playable witch -- and those spells - when Pathfinder RPG debuts in August. (Oops, the cat is out of the bag!)
I'll be reading and working on a witch this evening (along with arranging plans for Burning Man!)
There are some fun movies from the 1970s about witches. Movies less well known than Rosemary's Baby and perhaps odder. In one, an old guy on his deathbed invites a dozen (young) people to his rural mansion to test them to see who will inherit his witch-like powers. In another, a couple move to a new town. The wife is pregnant and stalked by several townsfolk of a coven who wish to sacrifice her (or something) in order to reincarnate their dead/dying leader into the baby's body. All the usual odd 1970s stuff (with actors who are 30-something, not 15 year olds; ah those were the days!)
I mention these because they have nice narrative potential. Witches are very rich for story ideas and I'd want to keep that.
I'm purely bouncing ideas.. but no crunch (which is often not my forte).
Gosh, that's thought provoking. I would just step away from the 3.5 DMG altogether. Don't look at that and then model something. Model your own idea from scratch.
First step I suppose would be really to define the archtype you're writing up. For example, one can easily make a case for witch to be a sorcerer.
Except, most of the Wizard's trappings (i.e. the spellbook, the familiar, the material component, the unseen servant) actually seemed to come from the witch folklore.. and were then adopted by the early writers of what we consider contemporary fantasy in describing the Mage.
There are wizard-like trappings all over the the witches folklore. Just bear that in mind.
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The witch has always struck me as independent, but drawing strength from a group, like a sacred circle or a coven. (As in covenant)
Witches have always seemed to be able to grant small boons or benefits (good luck, a fine singing voice, a boost to charisma, a benefit for a specific challenge), or curses and hexes (and those are easier to imagine so I won't belabor the point). Sometimes of terrifying power, but often not so much.. sometimes they just wear the victim down over time. Because, you know, they say it's the small things in live that drive you around the bend.
There is definitely a ritual aspect to some of their lore. Divination too.
Hope this helps shape your initial vision for this class.
Funny how I'd never thought of so many of the wizard spells as, well, witch spells that got incorporated into the wizard archetype, which then slowly transformed into something more academic and flashy (until it became 4E's mobile blaster cannon).
Thank you for mentioning the boon part along with the curses. And yes, I feel the coven / group aspect is a major feature of the archetype.
In terms of archetypes, I'm thinking what would fit Pathfinder and the world of Golarion. There are also semi-modern themes that I think can fit the witch. Something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or The Picture of Dorian Grey, or the Island of Dr. Moreau.
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