here is a pair of acupuncture themed rogue talents i thought up.
Acupuncturist (Ex;)
through your mastery of precise application of needles or similar instruments to vital nerves in the human anatomy. a process that takes 30 minutes per patient, you may heal the recipient by an amount based off the result of your bonus sneak attack damage dice. you may choose to roll these dice normally or take the average result. performing this requires a successful heal check rolled against the recipient's CMD. in addition, heal is a class skill for you.
Mystic Acupuncturist. (Ex;)
this rogue talent requires acupuncturist before you can select it.
when casting a spell or spell like ability that heals hit points (such as cure light wounds), as part of the spell, you may roll a heal check opposed by the recipient's CMD. if this check succeeds, you may add an amount of healing equal to the result of your bonus sneak attack damage dice. you may choose to roll these dice normally or take the average result. you may also use this ability with spell trigger (such as wands) and spell completion items (such as scrolls).
how about a third talent that allows you to add your heal ranks as extra damage with a successful sneak attack. the other two as prereqs
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"What, this? This is my magic shiv of healing. What? No, of course it's not just a regular shiv. Why would I stick a regular shiv in you? That would just kill you. This one will heal you. Trust me."
Sorry, I don't hate what you're trying to do. But the idea of trusting the rogue to heal people with acupuncture, well it was just too funny to me. Isn't it a funny image? Okay, so it's not a shiv. It's a bunch of needles.
"These are my needles of healing. Lie down, relax, and make yourself comfortable. It's probably best if I don't tell you exactly what's going on, I just need you to trust me."
how about a third talent that allows you to add your heal ranks as extra damage with a successful sneak attack. the other two as prereqs
sounds like a good idea.
Actually i had to ask something, why is the save vs. CMD, that didnt quite sit well with me or made sense, needs to be fort or will save. fort dealing with endurance/ health, or will being the bodies energies and mental focus.
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Being firmly based in as hidden location just off the shore of China I've had my fair share of chats with doctors who practice Chinese medicine and been prodded, cupped (ooh er missus), herbed, bent and pierced more than once.
Their main claim is that 'Western medicine treats the symptoms - Chinese medicine solves the cause of the symptoms.'
- it takes time, is never a quick fix but will ultimately improve your health and reduce the likelihood of future complications.
Now, I'm not going to tell you how you represent aspects of Chinese medicine in your games.
Personally tho, I'd make acupuncture a tool for treating disease and/or providing bonuses to saving throws versus physical hardship, long term conditions and the like.
The idea of acupuncture being used to patch up someone after a fight or during a fight seems.. well, contrary to my personal experience with it's use and practitioners.
Of course, if it's an anime-themed world then, heeell why not - it makes as much sense as most made-for-an-audience story elements!
It seems like /alot/ of extra healing.
I would probably limit it to the *number* of dice rolled rather than to the actual number. (so 2d5 SA becomes +2 damage). You are really just letting the rogue take these two abilities to become the group's primary CLW wand user.
That, and/or limit the amount of "bonus healing" to once per recipient per 24 hour period.
Just my thoughts.
-S
Been watching this thread a bit and I must say I get a chuckle out of it. I am not so how of combining the sneak attack damage with the skill to heal but I kind of like the idea of a different type of healing skill.
If you do plan to add something like this then it should take a lot of time plus it mean that most of their skin would need to be exposed. This means taking off most of their armor and clothes. It would be a great way to catch PC's with their pants downs so to speak.
Additionally, I could also see this happening.
Warrior: I need healing
Rogue: Sure take off most of your gear, drop it off right here and then go lie down in that corner so I can apply the needles in the proper places and have room to work.
Warrior: OK
Does so.
Rogue grabs the gear and then runs like mad laughing all the way.
to answer a few questions proposed by others
the heal check is rolled against CMD because some patients like to squirm when you stick needles in them which can cause the healing to fail
there are multiple reasons i came up with this idea.
the first is to help multiclass rogue/clerics with thier healing
the second is to reduce the dependancy on a party having a cleric
the third is to make the heal skill actually useful
the fourth was to rationalize "sneak healing" to myself and to others who scoff at the idea.
the fifth was to extend the lifespan of wands of cure light wounds at the high levels. where it takes a whole wand and a half to heal each party member.
the talents have thier own built in balancing factors.
wands only have so many charges, casters only have so many spells per day. and the first talent takes 30 minutes per use. i don't care that wands get thier "Lifespans" drastically increased. i see that as a good thing. it means high level pcs aren't blowing through a wand and a half each every fight. 6 wands per pc per day tends to mess with my sense of immersion. BTW this is a slight exaggeration.
here is a 3rd talent. balanced by requiring 2 others.
Master Acupuncturist.
this rogue talent requires Acupuncturist and Mystic acupuncturist.
when making a sneak attack with a light melee weapon, you may add your ranks in the heal skill as a bonus to your sneak attack damage
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Reasons noted - personally I wouldn't use the setup/rules you've proposed for a number of reasons but if it works for you etc etc :)
However, I would have them as feats - I see no reason why a rogue would be the only class/persons capable of employing acupuncture!
Yes, they can sneak attack and yes acupuncture requires careful placement of needles and the like but.. ..healing in general requires care and technique.
So, why not make it two feats? If you really want to reduce the dependency on clerics this would make sense.
Finally, the CMD mechanic you propose doesn't really make sense - the last thing anyone receiving acupuncture wants to be doing is moving around - that is, moving around enough to warrant a resisted CMD roll!
Granted it can be a little weird at times but those who regularly receive acupuncture as a treatment grin and bare it - it's really not painful, just a little unpleasant.
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DC 15-20 fort save, temporary paralysis if fail by 5 or more to the one being healed, lasts for 5 minutes, takes 30 minutes to perform without distraction, with distraction raise DC by 10, a person can only be healed once per day with acupuncture healing.
DC 15-20 fort save, temporary paralysis if fail by 5 or more to the one being healed, lasts for 5 minutes, takes 30 minutes to perform without distraction, with distraction raise DC by 10, a person can only be healed once per day with acupuncture healing.
That's certainly makes more sense..
..actually, the idea of temporary paralysis kinda freaks me out.. O_O
...but it's fun and in keeping with a fantasy 'hey it could happen' vibe.
>_< ..and it's cool.
Here's a crazy idea. Instead of having a separate set of feats for every form of alternative medicine we can think of (acupuncture, chiropractics, homeopathy, phrenology, etc) we could instead generalize these down to a single, simplified skill roll that can do a myriad of helpful health-related things.
In general, I think non-magical healing should mostly just enhance natural healing, since in our non-magical real world that is effectively what it does. So here are my suggested uses for the skill:
- Stabilize dying characters (DC around... 15)
- Improve natural healing rate (DC 15 again, I'd say)
- help with poison or disease (the save DC as a skill roll)
- Instantly heal a day's worth (DC 20 - should be harder!)
- As above, but add your wisdom (DC 25! very wise in the ways of medicine)
To simulate using hot rocks, needles, leeches, that sheet they cover the massage table with to keep the oil off, and so on, we could have them need some sort of general "kit" to use for this skill with materials that can be expended (reuse of needles is just plain unsanitary!) performing one's art.
My "first draft" name for this skill is panaceicmedicatronics, but I'm thinking that's a bit long. Maybe we could brainstorm a few name ideas..
Here's a crazy idea. Instead of having a separate set of feats for every form of alternative medicine we can think of (acupuncture, chiropractics, homeopathy, phrenology, etc) we could instead generalize these down to a single, simplified skill roll that can do a myriad of helpful health-related things.
In general, I think non-magical healing should mostly just enhance natural healing, since in our non-magical real world that is effectively what it does. So here are my suggested uses for the skill:
- Stabilize dying characters (DC around... 15)
- Improve natural healing rate (DC 15 again, I'd say)
- help with poison or disease (the save DC as a skill roll)
- Instantly heal a day's worth (DC 20 - should be harder!)
- As above, but add your wisdom (DC 25! very wise in the ways of medicine)To simulate using hot rocks, needles, leeches, that sheet they cover the massage table with to keep the oil off, and so on, we could have them need some sort of general "kit" to use for this skill with materials that can be expended (reuse of needles is just plain unsanitary!) performing one's art.
My "first draft" name for this skill is panaceicmedicatronics, but I'm thinking that's a bit long. Maybe we could brainstorm a few name ideas..
Here's a crazy idea. Instead of having a separate set of feats for every form of alternative medicine we can think of (acupuncture, chiropractics, homeopathy, phrenology, etc) we could instead generalize these down to a single, simplified skill roll that can do a myriad of helpful health-related things.
In general, I think non-magical healing should mostly just enhance natural healing, since in our non-magical real world that is effectively what it does. So here are my suggested uses for the skill:
- Stabilize dying characters (DC around... 15)
- Improve natural healing rate (DC 15 again, I'd say)
- help with poison or disease (the save DC as a skill roll)
- Instantly heal a day's worth (DC 20 - should be harder!)
- As above, but add your wisdom (DC 25! very wise in the ways of medicine)To simulate using hot rocks, needles, leeches, that sheet they cover the massage table with to keep the oil off, and so on, we could have them need some sort of general "kit" to use for this skill with materials that can be expended (reuse of needles is just plain unsanitary!) performing one's art.
My "first draft" name for this skill is panaceicmedicatronics, but I'm thinking that's a bit long. Maybe we could brainstorm a few name ideas..
how about the "Heal" skill, it actually makes more sense and i do like giving the skill more actions, acupuncture could be just for flavor, however were talking about adding a kewl Rogue talent at the same time.
So I propose we use the skill for healing and more as mentioned, however a rogue talent that uses needles and say 6 ranks in Heal, would be the prereq and necessary for adding your heal ranks in damage to a successful sneak attack using light piercing weapons.
how about the "Heal" skill, it actually makes more sense and i do like giving the skill more actions, acupuncture could be just for flavor, however were talking about adding a kewl Rogue talent at the same time.
Oh hells yes! Heal is a much better name for it. I wonder if we can convince them to put it into the next revision of the core rulebook?
So Shuri what do you think ?
So Shuri what do you think ?
what are you asking about. i was out of town for a few dyas.
So Shuri what do you think ?what are you asking about. i was out of town for a few dyas.
your comments on the posts made,since the last time you posted
your comments on the posts made,since the last time you postedSo Shuri what do you think ?what are you asking about. i was out of town for a few dyas.
i find them interesting. i guess acupuncture can just be fluff for the heal skill. but i really think that most parties have too much dependancy on having a single classed cleric. i wanted to make the awesome combo of rogue/cleric viable as well as give some form of useful non-clerical healing. i thought of the similarities between "sneak attack" and "acupuncture." both utilize precision and knowledge of the recipient's anatomy. the main difference being the intentions invovled.
Real acupuncture has little to do with genuine anatomy - needles are placed at points that are important for the channeling of chi energy in the body. Being stabbed in those points doesn't cause someone significantly more damage than being stabbed an inch to the right or left of those points. Different maps of the body for chi and for important organs and arteries.
A party without a cleric might have any of the following:
Bard - healing spells, use magic device + wands
Druid - healing spells
Paladin - lay on hands, channel energy, healing spells
Rogue - use magic device + wands
I'd be baffled as to why you think the role of major healer should be moved into the Rogue class, but I still recall that in an ECL 1 game you wanted to use Catfolk with the Advanced template for your race, but thought that might be underpowered..
To be honest i think playing a multiclassed Rogue/Cleric is flavor and personality of the player, doesnt need a push to multiclass, but is an option, i've played a Feyri Rogue/Cleric back in 3.5, and found it to be both entertaining and colorful, pre talents and all yah know, thought to begin with was just a Rogue who could heal himself after a botched trap save, but after a few sessions and a lil story became a black market/under world healer of Olidammara with a heart of gold and plenty in his pocket as an indiscriminate healer to Thieves and Assassins alike, even adventuring to procure rare herbs and other homeopathic medicines for a legit shop.
maybe i need to stop trying to convert my freeform mary sue fan characters to actual rpg rulesets. i admit that's what they are. because of my horrible past with gaia online where if you were not the most powerful munchkinized godmodiest mary sue ever, you had your character killed instantaneously. and every new character made was more and more powerful than the last. nobody there beleived in actual roleplay (only combat between gods). at first, lesser powered yokai were considered brokenly overpowered and an hour later, the old gods were at the bottom of the ladder. as people stacked templates on overpowered anime races above over the top power sets that got progressively longer. after my first week there, everyone in the entire community could individually destroy multiple multiverses with thier instant thoughts. except myself. and there was no stat system to balance anything.
This is actually a fun idea - I just wouldn't bother to call it "accupuncture".
In Borderlands (a Shooter Pc Game with classes, levels & skills) the Warrior could use his friendly fire to "cauterize" wounds and thus heal his teammates (it even works with grenades).
So just make it a Talent that a Rogue can use his Sneak Attack Bonus die per day to "cauterize" a wounded PC as a full round action with the added baddie that doing more damage than healing will result in damaging the recipient again for the left over amount :) Further Talents could increase the number of dice per day or also use it to cut out poisoned wounds.
Combat Medic ftw :)
Real acupuncture has little to do with genuine anatomy - needles are placed at points that are important for the channeling of chi energy in the body.
And considering that acupuncture needles are so thin that forty needles will fit inside a standard hypodermic needle (http://www.acupuncture-treatment.com/images/Acupuncture-needles-2.jpg), there's likely going to be a huge difference between actual acupuncture and the "healing" effects of a rogue's stiletto stabbing you in the face, no matter how delicately he attempts to do so.
"I sneak attack point DU24 for... (roll) 13 extra healing. Why are his eyes glassed over and rolling back into his head? Oh! This ALWAYS happens! WHY!? GODS WHY!? HE WAS SOOO YOUNG!"
My wife is a L.Ac. and has adapted some 3.5 rules so that she can perform herbal compounding in Pathfinder as a druid. Apparently bringing her work into the game counts as fun but if it keeps her interested, I'm all for it. :)