Econ / Stability / Loyalty creep?


Kingmaker


Has anyone run into this yet?

My PCs have a size 21 kingdom, with four districts in two citys. So Command DC is 45. However, their Econ is in the 70s, and loyalty and stability in the high 50's. And as far as I can see, it's all perfectly RAW.

1. They have their edicts set so that they get +1 in each stat each round.
2. They generally do not claim more than one hex a round, building roads and farmlands as needed to keep consumption at 0-2.
3. They built herbalists/markets/exotic shops/black market as soon as they were able, to get magic items to sell each round. Since when they began they had an econ of over 20 (all the optional leadership roles were/are shifted to econ).
4. They built the castle first, followed up with brothel and herbalist, and have never looked back. They were tight on build points for the first 10 turns or so, but not since.

It just seems that with edicts basically keeping pace with growth, the buildings and resources (as well as roads) mean that the kingdom stats will just keep getting farther and farther ahead. Already they are guaranteed at least 16 BP from the econ roll, and another 20 (2 minor items, 2 medium) from selling magical items. So that means that they can safely withdraw up to 15 BP (30,000) in a turn, and succeed with a loyalty check of 2 (1 always fails). And it adds 1 unrest, which the assassin, or building a house, gets rid of. Then they can do it again next round.

I don't actually have objections to that, we are having a lot of fun with kingmaker, I just wondered if this is something others have noticed, or if I'm screwing up in some major way:)


I'm not sure if you're trying to blame the edicts or just outlining all the facts, as the impact of edicts should be practically negligible at the stage which you describe, but that mostly looks to me like good kingdom management.


So, once the kingdom becomes large and relatively stable, it will keep growing stronger.. That seems to be quite in line with what you'd expect from a real kingdom that is managed well :)


I will say that they're in trouble if they try to take out 15 BP in a turn and roll a 1. Fifteen unrest in one go will cause a crisis and hex lost the next time that the Upkeep phase comes around, and it may take several months to get things back under control.


Are you treating the edicts as cumulative? From what you are saying, it sounds like you are, but I can't tell. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to just be for that turn.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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One of the most complex elements to make work for the kingdom rules is the economy, to be honest. That's why we went with a new unit of currency, the "BP" instead of gold pieces.

The core game's economy, basically, works ONLY for magic items. It's very difficult to price things like houses or castles or cities or ships, since if you make them "properly expensive" so that a low or mid-level character would have trouble affording, then non-adventurers could NEVER own a house and building a castle would bankrupt most kingdoms.

But if you make those things more affordable according to the common folk, suddenly it's possible for mid-level characters to buy all sorts of houses and castles and stuff, and that's a bit weird too.

I went back and fort many times on whether I wanted to include a method for the PCs to convert BP to gp, and to convert gp to BP. For a LONG time there WAS no support for that—BP was purely a currency used to build and maintain kingdoms. In that case, a kingdom that was run VERY well would be healthy and not have to worry about most expenditures and sudden calamities, but the PCs running the kingdom wouldn't be able to withdraw BP and turn them into gp and suddenly be able to afford ridiculously overpriced gear and items for their level.

But that also meant that if a kingdom was failing, it was impossible for PCs to go out and adventure and get lots of treasure and then bail out their kingdom with the treasure, and that was an option I really wanted to be available.

So in the end, the ability to convert BP to gp went in the game.

As for magic items... the intent there was to have them PRIMARIALLY be a place for the PCs to buy magic items while at the same time combating the "magic shop" mentality. The ability to cycle through magic items by selling them off was a late addition, and it's one that I think probably needs a bit more looking at so as to avoid a self-perpetuating money-printing machine.

Now, if your players are having fun with a super-rich kingdom, that's cool. Keep on going! You can use the events table to help moderate things if you wish, and if the players are suddenly withdrawing all sorts of BP in order to buy +5 keen holy swords at 6th level, you DO need to make some adjustments. In this case, I'd suggest changing the rules so that BP can't be turned into gp; once currency becomes BP, it stays that way.

If/when I update these rules for inclusion in a hardcover (which, hopefully, I will be able to do someday), the magic item shop/sale system will be getting a major overhaul. The point of that system is to provide the PCs with options, not to bloat a kingdom's Economy.

It also strikes me that another relatively elegant solution is to place soft caps on a kingdom's stats. One of the following solutions might work:

1) A kingdom's Economy, Stability, and Loyalty modifiers can never be further than 10 points apart. Increases that would make one of these scores rise more than 10 points above any other are lost. Decreases that lower a score below 10 points also reduce the higher point total so that the decrease never creates a gap of more than 10 points.

or

2) A kingdom's Economy, Stability, and Loyalty modifiers can never be higher than the kingdom's Command DC – 5. This system ensures that there's always a bit of a chance for failure, and encourages the PCs to build their kingdom's size up, but does kind of stagnate things since there's always a hard limit to how successful a kingdom can get.

If anyone wants to try out some of these alterations to the rules, I'd love to hear how they play out!


Yes, I am treating the edicts as cumulative. I posted a question on this board before we started, and was told that they are indeed cumulative (otherwise, why would you continue to pay for them every round).

And I am indeed looking forward to the time when the '1' comes up on the roll. Actually, they haven't withdrawn much, a total of about 4 is all, to buy a nice wand that came up on the magic item roll. It just occurs to me that they could. Although that does bring up a good limitiing factor. Since it states that if unrest goes over 20 the kingdom collapses and they have to start over, that means if they withdraw more than 19, and do get the 1, they lose it all!

Thanks - I agree that they are doing a good job managine the kingdom, and we're just about to the last event in adventure two - to avoid spoilers, I'll just say that it will give them some unrest and other things to think about:)

Admittedly, I have a VERY experienced group of players, the two newbies in the group have been with us for 12 years, and a good combination of role players and strategic thinkers. In fact the only strife we have is between the counciler, who actually tries to represent the people, and the duke, who is a paladin of Sune (Forgotten Realms), and considers brothels the same as shrines. "NO, you cannot have an entire district of brothels. The town needs a mill, and a stable, and a blacksmith." And of course, when we get to the mass combat rules, the build points will go like water, as they get into paying for armies and such.

Thanks for the comments, I just wondered if others had noticed this tendency.


Reply to James:

Thanks for the advice. I think I will try option 1 - the 10 point difference. The other one would be tough. I'm not going into the game tonight and tell them they have to subtract 40 points from their economy, when they've worked so hard to build it up:)

As I said above, they haven't actually withdrawn a bunch of BPs for magic items, it's just that I'm sure that will occur to them as they round out their cities and don't need to build as much.

Couple of things I had already put in - when they do withdraw, I made it a d4 of unrest, and somehow the rules and the adventure have all my players treating unrest like they just rolled multiple ones on saving throws. They are deathly afraid of it. I of course, fully support that:)

The other thing about magic items/shops/etc is that invariably, the items that come up are not interesting (scroll of deathwatch? wand of daze?, +1 halberd?) or needed by the party. So at first they sold them just to get something else on the list.

Oh, and the only +5 item I'm worried about them getting is the ones you put into the adventure - in the town of Brestloy or Rostov (the one in adventure 4, with 2 +5 items for sale). That town has a LOT of good stuff. Our lists don't look anything like that, although they keep selling stuff off and trying again:)

Thanks for the advice, and well done on the adventure. I really don't see my players getting too greedy, at most I could see them withdrawing 2 BP a turn, so that everyone can get a +2 ability item, but other than that, I'll just talk up the unrest and we'll see if they keep a level perspective.

Oh, and one more kudos - by limiting the base value of the town to 16.5K, you have set a limit on magical items. The most they can get from their town is a +2/+2/+2 belt, or a +4 ability item. Even a +3 weapon is over the limit, although I guess they could get +4 armor. So if they want the big stuff, it HAS to come up in the magic shops, which means they are at the mercy of the dice. Gotta love it. Well done James.


Hmm. I'm not certain that the Edicts are supposed to provide a permanent bonus that keeps getting bigger and bigger. I think that they're really supposed to be micro-management tools, for turn by turn basis stuff.
I'm not sure that I understand what's being meant by the use of the word 'cumulative' here though.
Anyway, have fun.

Scarab Sages

Edicts are cumulative? I was under the same impression as Charles Evans 25, that they added a small bonus each turn.


Isn't that the definition of cumulative? Each turn they add 1 (in my groups case) to each total. And each turn you must pay for them (3 BP in my group's case). If that's not the case, my group would have spent a total of almost 90 build points (to date) for a grand total of +1 to each stat. In such a case, they (and everyone else) would simply set their totals to zero, and ignore edicts, something which is clearly not intended in the rules.
Also, it specifically says that building bonuses are one time things, it does not say that about edicts. Edicts are mentioned as being dealt with every turn.
Finally, I posted that very question a couple of months ago, and the response was that they do indeed count every month.


Major__Tom wrote:

Isn't that the definition of cumulative? Each turn they add 1 (in my groups case) to each total. And each turn you must pay for them (3 BP in my group's case). If that's not the case, my group would have spent a total of almost 90 build points (to date) for a grand total of +1 to each stat. In such a case, they (and everyone else) would simply set their totals to zero, and ignore edicts, something which is clearly not intended in the rules.

Also, it specifically says that building bonuses are one time things, it does not say that about edicts. Edicts are mentioned as being dealt with every turn.
Finally, I posted that very question a couple of months ago, and the response was that they do indeed count every month.

Judging by the fact that many people seem to be thinking that edicts have a monthly upkeep and only grant the small bonus, I think this is why your numers seem to be out whack. If they have edicts set to 1, they should have a total of +1 from each edict, not a +1 for each month they have had the edict. If your on your second year, that would halve your numbers and bring them back in line with the possibility of failure. In fact, they would have a fairly hard time making the DC45 control check.


But one of those people is NOT James. He saw my stuff about edicts each month, and said nothing, instead moving on to discuss magic shops and BP sales.

Also, it does not explain the basic question. If you must pay 3 BP each month for a net gain of 1 to each stat - total, why would you bother?

James - Help. Is it every month, or is it worthless? (Because frankly, a micro-management of 1 to a stat quickly becomes worthless, build a brothel or park and you do better than that, without paying every month).

It also sounds kind of strange. Taxation of 1, adds 1 to economy, the 20 road hexes they've built add 5 to economy and 2 to stability.


Edicts are a way to convert excess output from farmlands into Loyalty/Stability/Economy.
What taxes do or don't do is a bit of a tricky issue...

Edit:
Okay, it's still very much on a small scale, getting things out of excess farmland output. The Stability and Loyalty bonuses are probably more useful in a tight situation for Command checks (and there can be some very tight command checks when you're starting out, especially if you've been expanding territory) than the Economy bonus for taxes is likely to be in terms of generating BP...

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Edicts are a month-to-month adjustment you make that affects only that month's kingdom turn. You can turn it on or off or adjust it every month.

At least, that's the way it always seemed apparent to me. Otherwise, promotions would be the only ones you'd pay for with BP, and why not, the payoff in stability would be vastly greater than ever building a building. 1 BP for +1 or 2 BP for +2 or even 4 BP for a +3 bonus to Stab or Loy? Yes please! That's a bargain compared to building buildings.

I've reread the short paragraph on edicts, and it doesn't actually say one way or the other, but it would seem odd to me that the two would overlap in doing the same permanent effect.

Also, take your own logic. You have run with this and it feels like the numbers are spiraling impossibly out of balance with the DCs. Does that in itself not suggest to you that perhaps the "permanent bonus" interpretation is perhaps not the correct one?


Sorry, not clear. The point I was trying to make is that with a tax rate of 1 (non-cumulative), you have a 20% chance of adding an extra BP to the kingdom treasury.

Guess what - a brothel also has a permanent 20% change of adding 1 to the kingdom treasury, with no upkeep.

So one brothel has the same effect on the economy as taxation on the entire kingdom, even if it gets up to 200 squares, a dozen cities and towns? I know brothels are popular, but....

That's it, the solution to america's economic woes. We need to build more brothels:)

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Major__Tom wrote:

Sorry, not clear. The point I was trying to make is that with a tax rate of 1 (non-cumulative), you have a 20% chance of adding an extra BP to the kingdom treasury.

Guess what - a brothel also has a permanent 20% change of adding 1 to the kingdom treasury, with no upkeep.

So one brothel has the same effect on the economy as taxation on the entire kingdom, even if it gets up to 200 squares, a dozen cities and towns? I know brothels are popular, but....

That's it, the solution to america's economic woes. We need to build more brothels:)

Yep, pretty much.

Really, edicts seem to play out more as a "cost of doing business" as a kingdom than a major factor; still, a few bonus points here or there can make a difference.

The PCs in my campaign are likewise being very circumspect, expanding slowly, building tons of farms to keep consumption as low as possible. I did modify the magic selling rules because I thought it was just way too much, but things are going along well enough.


Major__Tom wrote:
Yes, I am treating the edicts as cumulative. I posted a question on this board before we started, and was told that they are indeed cumulative (otherwise, why would you continue to pay for them every round).

As far as I can see, that topic has one response, and not from anyone "official". The ONLY offical response on bonuses being permanent I have seen is James Jacobs saying that quest rewards are permanent. Your argument that adjusting edict levels in the long term would be a waste seems to me to be a very min-max type of argument. The biggest effect of edicts should be RP-related, as increased festivals celebrating the King and posters with the King's face and a slogans all over the place would make the players feel that they're really doing a great job as rulers.

As I see it, the Kingdom building rules are EASILY broken, but that only means that players and GMs should be encouraged to work together to make a cool story, not min-max "optimal buildings" to create a good "kingdom build".


I discussed this with my players last night, and we could only come up with two solutions that made any sense.

1. The way we are doing it, you pay for it every time, and you receive the bonuses every time. That is, your econ/stab/loy all increase by 1 every round, cumulative, and you keep paying the cost every round.

2. You pay for it once, and the effects count. That is, if you have low taxation, you take a 1 point hit on loyalty, and get a 1 point bonus to econ. This lasts until you change it. Or you pay 8 BP once, and get a boost of 4 Stab once - permanent until you change it.

the third way, pay for it every round and only get the benefits once, makes no sense. Also confusing is the loyalty cost for taxation. If it's pay for it every round, that should mean that if you set your taxation at zero, you get no econ bump, but your 'cost' would be a +1 to your loyalty every round.

However, there have been several responses that said as long as you keep paying for it, the bonuses remain. The example mentioned about festivals, with 1 festival a year still costing you 1 BP a month.

Discussing it with my players, we're going to keep doing it the way we have interpreted, since it seems to make the most sense to us, unless we hear differently from James. And actually, they don't care. My wife is the one who is keeping track of their totals, so she could forget about adding in the edict benefits every round, which would please her. Currently, their totals are 82 econ/65 loy/ 66 stab, with a Command DC of 46.
So if James rules that it is a one time benefit & cost thing, they'll subtract the 20 or so from each of their stats, pick the edict levels that fit their kingdom (low taxes, lots of festivals), and leave them there forever. If the ruling is #3, one time benefit and pay forever, they will of course set everything to zero, drop econ and stab by 20 (loyalty would remain the same - lose 20 from festivals, gain it from zero taxes). And then they'll expand until they are size 26 (build 5 building a round), and concentrate on building until they are safely in the 'anything but a 1' territory again.

It would mean they'd have to pay more attention to building and expansion, which would please a couple of the more strategic players. Making sure that they build a park and an inn every turn that they expand, for example, to offset the command difficulty rise, and then build whatever they wanted to keep expanding their numbers, and their kingdom.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

jorgenporgen wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
Yes, I am treating the edicts as cumulative. I posted a question on this board before we started, and was told that they are indeed cumulative (otherwise, why would you continue to pay for them every round).

As far as I can see, that topic has one response, and not from anyone "official". The ONLY offical response on bonuses being permanent I have seen is James Jacobs saying that quest rewards are permanent. Your argument that adjusting edict levels in the long term would be a waste seems to me to be a very min-max type of argument. The biggest effect of edicts should be RP-related, as increased festivals celebrating the King and posters with the King's face and a slogans all over the place would make the players feel that they're really doing a great job as rulers.

As I see it, the Kingdom building rules are EASILY broken, but that only means that players and GMs should be encouraged to work together to make a cool story, not min-max "optimal buildings" to create a good "kingdom build".

Kingdom edicts last for the entire month. That said, you can continue to use them month after month, as long as you pay the appropriate consumption increase or Loyalty penalty. That consumption cost isn't a one-time thing.

As for the rules themselves, they're something that's brand new. I've never seen anything quite like them for d20 rules before, and I did my best to make them work as elegantly and gracefully as possible, but I knew all along that some groups would be able to quickly break them. That's why I've always held the stance that GMs MUST remain flexible when it comes to these kingdoms, and why I've been so eager to hear feedback about the kingdoms.

At this point, it seems to me that for the most part, the kingdom rules ARE doing the job. In some cases, PC kingdoms are doing very well, but that doesn't seem to be overbalancing the bulk of the actual adventuring.

And given the popularity of these rules, I think it's VERY likely that we'll be revising and expanding them in the future in a hardcover book, at which point all the feedback we're getting from Kingmaker campaigns is going to be invaluable.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

James Jacobs wrote:
jorgenporgen wrote:
Major__Tom wrote:
Yes, I am treating the edicts as cumulative. I posted a question on this board before we started, and was told that they are indeed cumulative (otherwise, why would you continue to pay for them every round).

As far as I can see, that topic has one response, and not from anyone "official". The ONLY offical response on bonuses being permanent I have seen is James Jacobs saying that quest rewards are permanent. Your argument that adjusting edict levels in the long term would be a waste seems to me to be a very min-max type of argument. The biggest effect of edicts should be RP-related, as increased festivals celebrating the King and posters with the King's face and a slogans all over the place would make the players feel that they're really doing a great job as rulers.

As I see it, the Kingdom building rules are EASILY broken, but that only means that players and GMs should be encouraged to work together to make a cool story, not min-max "optimal buildings" to create a good "kingdom build".
Kingdom edicts last for the entire month. That said, you can continue to use them month after month, as long as you pay the appropriate consumption increase or Loyalty penalty. That consumption cost isn't a one-time thing.

I think this is the key point at issue for the OP in this thread; do the bonuses from promotion, taxation, or festivals either...

1. Last for only the month, then go away; or,

Example: You set promotion at the "Standard" for 3 months, resulting in cumulative totals for Month A: 2BP, +2 stability; Month B: spend 2 BP to get +2 stability, now you have +2 stability; Month C: spend 2 BP to get +2 stability, now you have +2 stability.

Or,

2. Do you pay the cost for this month, get the bonus, and then KEEP the bonus after the month is over?

Example: You set promotion at the "Standard" for 3 months, resulting in cumulative totals for Month A: 2BP, +2 stability; Month B: spend 2 BP to get +2 stability, now you have +4 stability; Month C: spend 2 BP to get +2 stability, now you have +6 stability.

In other words, is it a pay-as-you-go small bonus that you can get or not get each month or is it a constantly accumulating bonus?

My reading of it was #1. The OP read it as #2.


Jason is correct. Is it cumulative or not?

Also, does it work in reverse. If it is example #1, then what happens when they set taxation to zero (as of course they would, why would you take a constant drain on loyalty for a one time 1 point boost to econ), does that mean that loyalty then increases by 1 every month (cumulatively).

I can see setting festivals, since you could pay for them by setting aside a farmland, and that kind of fits the roleplaying aspect of the kingdom, but not the constant drain on loyalty for no return.

Frankly, we thought that it was set up so that you could offset costs. I.E. taxation costs you one loyalty, festival adds one loyalty and costs 1 BP, so you were even on loyalty, with +1 econ and a cost of 1 BP. This way, you'd be draining loyalty continuosly, and getting nothing for it after the first turn. Just seems really ...odd.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Major__Tom wrote:

Jason is correct. Is it cumulative or not?

Also, does it work in reverse. If it is example #1, then what happens when they set taxation to zero (as of course they would, why would you take a constant drain on loyalty for a one time 1 point boost to econ), does that mean that loyalty then increases by 1 every month (cumulatively).

I can see setting festivals, since you could pay for them by setting aside a farmland, and that kind of fits the roleplaying aspect of the kingdom, but not the constant drain on loyalty for no return.

Frankly, we thought that it was set up so that you could offset costs. I.E. taxation costs you one loyalty, festival adds one loyalty and costs 1 BP, so you were even on loyalty, with +1 econ and a cost of 1 BP. This way, you'd be draining loyalty continuosly, and getting nothing for it after the first turn. Just seems really ...odd.

Kingdom edicts are not cumulative.

You only gain the bonus for an edict if you pay for it that month. If you don't pay for it, that bonus goes away. Nor does the bonus stack each time you gain it.

I can see now where the confusion comes in, and that's because for all other bonuses to a kingdom score, those bonuses are permanent from a one-time permanent addition.

So think of it this way—the bonuses granted by edicts are NOT increases to your Loyalty, Economy, or Stability. They're one-time bonuses granted to your checks for that month, in the same way a bless spell grants a bonus to your attack roll but does not actually increase your attack role forever.

If you have an edict that grants you a +2 bonus on Loyalty, you pay the consumption for that month and FOR THAT MONTH ONLY you gain a +2 bonus on the die roll when you make Loyalty checks. That +2 bonus goes away next month unless you pay the consumption again.

Liberty's Edge

FWIW, #1 is how I have always interpreted it, and it seems that is also how James is describing it.

The OP is correct that building a building that has one initial cost in BP but perpetually providing it's bonus to the kingdom's stats has more of a pramatic mathematical sense; but again as someone pointed out - the Edicts are good for roleplaying measures. Also that Edict bonus could wind up helping go above and beyond the stagnant bonus the kingdom is getting from it's construction; perhaps they can only build so many items that turn, and need a little boost for assurance. It's a good way to use the excess BP to bump when you can't bump via construction of a building.

AND it's good flavorful roleplaying to add color to the game.

Robert

Liberty's Edge

Major__Tom wrote:

Jason is correct. Is it cumulative or not?

Also, does it work in reverse. If it is example #1, then what happens when they set taxation to zero (as of course they would, why would you take a constant drain on loyalty for a one time 1 point boost to econ), does that mean that loyalty then increases by 1 every month (cumulatively).

I can see setting festivals, since you could pay for them by setting aside a farmland, and that kind of fits the roleplaying aspect of the kingdom, but not the constant drain on loyalty for no return.

Frankly, we thought that it was set up so that you could offset costs. I.E. taxation costs you one loyalty, festival adds one loyalty and costs 1 BP, so you were even on loyalty, with +1 econ and a cost of 1 BP. This way, you'd be draining loyalty continuosly, and getting nothing for it after the first turn. Just seems really ...odd.

Think of them like "aid other" maneuver. You don't get to keep the bonuses in the next round unless the person continues to spend his action to aid you.

You dont' get the bonus to your loy/econ/stab if you're not spending the BP etc to have it that turn.

Robert


So that's the way we'll play it. They'll set one farmland to pay for festivals and proclamations, and of course set taxation to zero, to pay a loyalty penalty of +1.

That's the part I was having a real hard time understanding. It seemed as though you'd pay a loyalty penalty of 1 each month - cumulative, for a 1 time bonus to econ, which would be really stupid. But of course if you have ruinous taxation, your loyalty takes a big penalty, but when you lower your taxes to none, the penalty goes away and you get a +1 bonus.
That makes a certain amount of sense, it's only the BP you have to pay each month, which you would, to pay for the festivals and proclaimations (setting aside one farmland to pay for them, you wouldn't actually use your own money:)

Thanks James. It will take my players no more than a week to recover from the 20 point hit to their stats, since even if I figure in a 20 point reduction in the econ, they have 116 BP saved, instead of the 128 they have currently. (They've been saving for a waterfront). So they'll expand slowly and build a bunch of stability/loyalty things. Current scores (with edicts out) would be 62/45/46 with a command DC of 46.

Actually, just for a nice challenge, I think I'll let them build their waterfront, and then bring in the last event of mod 2, right over the top of it, and see how they deal with that:)


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THREAD RESSURECTIONNNNN!!!!!!!

Sorry James, but I can't see how either of those things encourages people to move out from the town. I do think this is a viable option, however.

Make Population matter and base it's value off of something else.

Currently,
Command DC = 20 + Size
Population = Size x 250.

If you base Population on City Blocks used x some numberx 250... or perhaps by adding together Building bonuses x 250 and then add the rule:

If Size x 250 < Population... your people get 2 unrest a turn until this is rectified.

This would encourage players to expand and claim more hexes at a similar rate to building their city.

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