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I'm playing in an undead heavy game (Carrion Crown) and making a new character. I am leaning Bard, but also considered Sorcerer, and saw both have ways to cast spells on Undead that normally would have no effect.
My questions basically all have to do with how those abilities (the Undead Bloodline's Arcana, and the Dirge Bard's Secrets of the Grave) actually function.
Undead Arcana reads, "Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them."
Now, maybe I'm reading that wrong, but, while the first, fluffy line implies the ability will let me Charm Person a Zombie or Hold Person a skeleton, the second, actually rules-text line does not actually grant that ability.
Treating Undead as Humanoids for determining which spells affect them would allow a spell like Enlarge Person just fine, but nothing that I see about the ability actually bypasses an Undead creature's immunity to Mind-Affecting effects.
I mean, if treating the undead as a humanoid is all it takes to allow mind-affecting effects (because the creature would only be immune to mind-affecting effects by virtue of it being undead), that opens a huge can of worms. Would I be able to use death effects on a zombie because I treat it as humanoid and it is only immune to death effects because it is undead? Could I knock a skeleton unconscious with Color Spray? How far does this go?
Has there been some errata or FAQ entry or developer post about this? Because assuming it doesn't let me use mind-affecting effects, it seems like it's only good for buffing my allied Undead creatures, rather than controlling opposing undead.
Secrets of the Grave reads, "A dirge bard may use mind-affecting spells to affect undead as if they were living creatures, even if they are mindless (though spells that affect only humanoids do not affect them, even if they were humanoids in life)."
So, I could Charm Monster, but not Charm Person a zombie. This seems clear cut, but as above, my question here is as to the extent of "treating the undead as a living creature."
Does it strictly apply to overcoming the immunity to mind-affecting spells, or does it apply to the entire spell? For example, if I cast Color Spray (a mind affecting effect) on a zombie, could I stun it because I can treat it as a living creature and living creatures are not immune to stun? Could I Sleep a skeleton? Can I use Phantasmal Killer on an Undead creature and kill it because it's treated as living for my mind-affecting spell?
Lastly, do you think that there would be any benefit to getting both abilities (starting out as Bard 2/Sorcerer 1)?
I will agree that the wording is vague. With Undead Arcana, you can make the argument that the first sentence isn't fluff but actually part of the power. It specifically suggests that some undead are not immune to your mind effecting spells and then specifies the 'some undead' are corporeal once-human undead. So I'd say you can use sleep on a zombie or ghoul, but not on a ghost or a skeletal trex.
The important thing is that Undead Arcana is that the general rule is that all undead are immune to mind effecting spells and ability. The more specific rule is that Undead Arcana allows a caster to effect some undead with mind effecting spells. So you still can't enlarge person a zombie because that is not mind effecting, nor can you circle of death because Undead Arcana doesn't let you use death effects on any undead.
Secrets of the Grave is straight forward and a better written version of Undead Arcana, in my opinion, with one interesting point. As you said, you would need Charm Monster even if it is a zombie.
Now, I don't see any actual combinations. They do work a bit different, but not in concert. Undead Arcana allows you to cast Charm Person on a zombie, while Secrets of the Grave would require Charm Monster. Secrets of the Grave lets you Charm Monster a skeletal trex, while Undead Arcana doesn't.
Taking both gets you a bit more options but only where spells that require the target be humanoid are concerned.
I will agree that the wording is vague. With Undead Arcana, you can make the argument that the first sentence isn't fluff but actually part of the power. It specifically suggests that some undead are not immune to your mind effecting spells and then specifies the 'some undead' are corporeal once-human undead. So I'd say you can use sleep on a zombie or ghoul, but not on a ghost or a skeletal trex.
So, your position is that it lets you bypass all the undead traits of the creature? One could Sleep the zombie simply by virtue of the spell treating the zombie as a humanoid? If I can Sleep a zombie, can I Color Spray one and stun it? Can I Phantasmal Killer one and save or die it?
So you still can't enlarge person a zombie because that is not mind effecting, nor can you circle of death because Undead Arcana doesn't let you use death effects on any undead.
The specific rule isn't that you can use mind-affecting effects, however, the specific rule is that it you treat them as humanoids. Even if you consider the mind-affecting part to be rules text, a humanoid is not immune to death effects, and the only thing stopping a zombie from being affected by Enlarge Person is that it only affects Humanoids.
Secrets of the Grave is straight forward and a better written version of Undead Arcana, in my opinion, with one interesting point. As you said, you would need Charm Monster even if it is a zombie.
Well, it also specifically lets you treat the undead as living, whereas the Undead Arcana only specifies Humanoid. I imagine that would let you get around additional restrictions like, "a living creature..."
Just for the record, do you think this ability also allows you to Sleep Zombies?
Now, I don't see any actual combinations. They do work a bit different, but not in concert. Undead Arcana allows you to cast Charm Person on a zombie, while Secrets of the Grave would require Charm Monster. Secrets of the Grave lets you Charm Monster a skeletal trex, while Undead Arcana doesn't.
Well, unless you are generous and take the implied "Undead Arcana allows you to use mind-affecting effects" route, Charm Person and Hold Person are not allowed unless you have both (as one lets you treat the zombie as a Humanoid and the other lets you affect them despite being mindless).
I think these abilities really need more clarification.
They need to be rewritten in errata. They do not function as written.
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Where the Undead Bloodline arcana talks about treating once-humanoid undead as humanoids, it's talking about the creature types in the Bestiary - 'Humanoid' on page 308 Vs 'Undead' on pages 309-310. So yes, any spell the Sorcerer casts on an appropriate once-humanoid undead bypasses that big list of things the undead get to be immune to. Except...
... If you take a look at the [Descriptor] text in the Magic section of the core book (page 212), bottom line, you'll see that mind-affecting spells only work on creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher. So the Undead Bloodline Sorcerer's mind-affecting spells still won't work on mindless undead, not because they're undead, but because they have no Intelligence score.
Also, Colour Spray has a specific line noting that 'only living creatures are knocked unconscious'. Rules-wise being classed as 'living' isn't a function (technically) of the humanoid creature type, so in this case also that aspect of the spell shouldn't affect the undead target either, as it's not living.
The Dirge Bard's 'Secrets of the Grave' on the other hand specifically allows mind-affecting spells to work on undead 'as if they were living' and 'even if they're mindless', but doesn't get to 're-classify' them as humanoid.
So the two Class Features do two different, but similar, things. A Dirge Bard can happily Colour Spray hordes of mindless zombies, whilst an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer can use Charm Person on a vampire, but it doesn't work vice-versa.
The Dirge Bard's 'Secrets of the Grave' on the other hand specifically allows mind-affecting spells to work on undead 'as if they were living' and 'even if they're mindless', but doesn't get to 're-classify' them as humanoid.
So the two Class Features do two different, but similar, things. A Dirge Bard can happily Colour Spray hordes of mindless zombies, whilst an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer can use Charm Person on a vampire, but it doesn't work vice-versa.
Now, again, just to get a specific clarification here:
If a Bard with Secrets of the Grave uses Color Spray on a zombie, can the zombie be stunned? Can it be knocked unconscious?
If you have Secrets of the Grave and cast Phantasmal Killer, can you "save or die" a vampire?
I'm ok with your interpretation, but I want to know the extent of it--which specific traits of the Undead are ignored by treating it as a living creature?
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Secrets of the Grave allows you to affect undead with mind-affecting spells as if they were living, even if they are mindless. Interpreting how that works in any given situation is a case of breaking it down and a little cross-referencing. So, essentially, the class feature does three things:
1. Allows you to affect undead with mind-affecting spells
2. Allows you to affect undead with those spells as if they were living targets
3. Allows you to affect undead with those spells even if they are mindless
A little cross-reference to the undead traits in the Bestiary shows us undead's immunity to mind-affecting effects includes: charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms. But (and here, I think, is the bit you're probably after) other immunities granted by having undead traits are listed seperately, such as: death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, non-lethal damage, exhaustion, fatigue, etc., etc. These other immunities are nothing to do with being affected by mind-affecting spells or not.
So, to your examples:
Colour Spray normally has the potential results of unconsciousness (living things only), blindness, and / or stunning. So when out Dirge Bard casts that spell on a zombie via Secrets of the grave, we need to run down our check-list of what effects get through. The mind-affecting aspect is okay, despite the zombie being both undead and mindless, so we move on to the specific effects. Blindness immunity isn't listed anywhere under undead traits, so that effect is fine. Immunity to stunning is listed, and seperate from anything to do with being mind-affecting, so that effect of the spell does nothing. Unconsciousness immunity isn't listed (technically unconsciousness is neither a sleep effect, nor an exhaustion / fatigue or non-lethal damage effect) and the Dirge Bard gets to affect the zombie as if it were living, so the 'living targets only' clause on the spell's unconsciousness effect also doesn't apply. So the zombie can be blinded and/or KOd by the spell, but not stunned.
Phantasmal Killer is easier still. While it technically can affect the vampire (the vampire needs to make the Will save to see if they believe the image or not), it can't hurt the vampire because undead are immune to any effect that requires a Fort save (unless it also works on objects or is harmless - neither tag applying to our Phantasmal Killer). So a vampire who fails the Will save may be momentarily startled, but still can't suffer a heart attack.
So Bard spells like Cause Fear, Lesser Confusion, Hideous Laughter and Hypnotism are fine choices for a Dirge Bard to use against undead, but Sleep isn't because undead are immune to sleep independently of their immunity to mind-affecting effects or being mindless.
The Undead Bloodline Sorcerer, on the other hand, treats once-humanoid undead as humanoids for the purposes of their mind-affecting spells, so they can happily cast Sleep on zombies, because humanoids aren't immune to sleep effects.
A little cross-reference to the undead traits in the Bestiary shows us undead's immunity to mind-affecting effects includes: charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms. But (and here, I think, is the bit you're probably after) other immunities granted by having undead traits are listed seperately, such as: death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, non-lethal damage, exhaustion, fatigue, etc., etc. These other immunities are nothing to do with being affected by mind-affecting spells or not.
This is how I'm reading it and I absolutely want to be wrong, because it really takes away most of the teeth from this ability. I mean, the spells you listed like cause fear and hypnotism are practically useless. It'll be nice, I guess, when I can cast Confusion and Fear, but before that, it feels almost pointless.
Likewise, most of the Necromancy spells I can get from this ability don't work either, since the vast majority of them target Fort. It seems like Chill Touch is the only one that helps.
I can't help but think both of these abilities are supposed to enhance your ability to buff allied undead, rather than help you fight against undead.
The Undead Bloodline Sorcerer, on the other hand, treats once-humanoid undead as humanoids for the purposes of their mind-affecting spells, so they can happily cast Sleep on zombies, because humanoids aren't immune to sleep effects.
I'm still really dubious about this. I agree that it's possible treating it as a humanoid will remove immunity to stunning, sleep, etc., but I don't think any part of it actually lets mind-affecting effects hit mindless creatures.
For the record, James Jacobs says that Secrets of the Graves lets the entire spell work and ignore all immunities.
I think they could certainly improve the wording of this ability, but I am thrilled to hear this.
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I'm still really dubious about this. I agree that it's possible treating it as a humanoid will remove immunity to stunning, sleep, etc., but I don't think any part of it actually lets mind-affecting effects hit mindless creatures.
No, you're right - make that '... they can happily cast Sleep on zuvembies...' ;)
What it does is let your spells affect them as if they weren't immune to them.
That means sleep puts zombies to sleep. Color spray blinds and stuns them. Phantasmal kill can destroy them.
It bypasses all mind affecting immunities for undead, in other words.
Gah! He says two different things there: that the spells 'ignore all immunities', and that the spells 'bypass mind affecting immunities'... If it really is the former, then that makes Secrets of the Grave extremely powerful, as it not only bypasses all undead immunities, but also any they may have had when they were living (which was the other possible interpretation I could see for Secrets of the Grave - you treat the creature as whatever type it was whilst it was alive). So your Sleep works on undead elves, for example. That does seem to be what Mr Jacobs is saying though... and it does make running the Class Feature a lot simpler, which is always a bonus!
I guess the follow-up question is whether there are any spells or abilities which allow you to treat non-undead targets as undead... ;)