Raktavarna as an object

[blackbloodtroll]

Does a Raktavarna count as the object it is turned into?

Can it be used as the object it is turned into?

[blackbloodtroll]

Examples:
Raktavarna in the form of a dagger, can be used as a dagger?

Raktavarna in the form of a buckler, can be used as a buckler?

Raktavarna in the form of a Holy Symbol, can be used as a Divine Focus?

[setzer9999]

I highly doubt there is a perfect answer hidden somewhere in the already printed RAW for that.

Change Shape is listed in the Universal Monster rules. It says it works like polymorph. However, specific trumps general. Whereas polymorph only let's you become a living thing, you could also cite that polymorph any object are the rules to look at when changing shape into a non-living form, polymorph any object also says it can't duplicate any valuable materials, and yet the ability of this creature(specifically) says it turns into things like ornate objects and treasure.

Why all that background? I'd say that yes, it functions like a weapon or whatever it is. "Can it be enchanted or be masterwork?" is what I'm assuming you are hoping to drive at... and I'm not sure that there are any rules for determining if an item transformed through polymorph any object can be masterwork or be enchanted. Find the answer to that question, and you have your full answer, but I can't find an answer to it.

If I were asked to rule on it right this second, I'd say that yes, the weapon can be masterwork. No, it can't be enchanted by default. Yes, it can be enchanted after transforming, but it loses all it's enchantments the moment it transforms into another form again, and does not regain them later... making it pretty expensive to do something like that. That would just be my rulings though.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, more like:
If I use it as a weapon, do feats related to that weapon apply?

If in the form of a weapon, can you cast magic weapon upon it?

If in the form of a weapon made of special material, does it count as said material for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction?

If in the form of a shield, does it provide a shield bonus to AC?

If in the form of a firearm, can it fire bullets?

[Selgard]

Well, if it can't be counted as the object its turned into then the ability to change its shape is absolutely completely pointless.

"thats a dagger"
"no its not, its a creature"
"How can you tell?"
"cuz its not a dagger."
"oh."

I'd say that logically speaking it has to function as the object it turns into.

However, it is not "an object' for the purposes of spells.. so no masterwork transformation, no enchanting it, and all that.

Could you use something like Magic Weapon on it? I would think so- yes (target: weapon touched) but it would only function as long as it was in the form of a weapon.

Ask yourself- if it was in the shape of a jug could it hold water? yes- so why wouldn't one in the shape of a dagger be a dagger?

Sundering would be interesting though.
It has no hardness, but it does ahve an armor class. would you use that somehow in the CMD? maybe add its natural armor bonus in? Heck I have no idea.

Maybe its easier to say it doesn't function as a weapon but I definately think it *should*.. it'll just require some work by the DM and Player to make it work.

-S

[blackbloodtroll]

Having a Raktavarna familiar that can turn into a functioning firearm sounds cool.

[setzer9999]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, more like:

If I use it as a weapon, do feats related to that weapon apply?

If in the form of a weapon, can you cast magic weapon upon it?

If in the form of a weapon made of special material, does it count as said material for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction?

If in the form of a shield, does it provide a shield bonus to AC?

If in the form of a firearm, can it fire bullets?

I'd say yes to all of these except special material bypassing DR. Specific trumps general, but only the part of polymorph any object (again, which change shape works like) regarding valuable materials (like treasure) is specifically altered out in this ability. There is a separate part of the rule in polymorph any object rules that say that it can't count as special materials for the purpose of bypassing DR. The ratkavarna's change shape special rules do not specify that it overrides this limitation, so it does not.

As to if it can be sundered... I'd say no. Unlike being the victim of a polymorph any object spell cast upon you against your will, the Change Shape ability states that the creature retains most of its own original qualities in addition to being what it has become, and it retains its ability scores. I'd imagine the good rationale for why is that unlike someone transformed against their will into a rock, the creature using change shape is still "fluid" enough to still have thought and the ability to take action, namely to change itself back. I'd argue that it has the same HP and AC as it does when shapeshifted as it does when not shapeshifted.

Edit: although it's not really in the RAW that I can tell, actually one caveat would be that if the ratkavarna is not attended, it has a Dex of 0, so, subtract that from armor and reflex and it would be treated like a normal object in terms of if it was hit, but then deal with its HP as the creature, not the object it is mimicking. If it is attended, I would say it gets the Dex mod of it's wielder. Again, not 100% sure if that's "RAW" but I highly doubt the devs thought about this specific ability in much detail regarding what we're talking about here, so a GM is going to have to figure some of this out for himself.

[blackbloodtroll]

Okay, this will most certainly be my next familiar.

Shooting a revolver, then having it transform into a demonic snake is just too awesome.

By the way, if you would be so kind as to hit the FAQ button next to the original post, that would be cool.
This could use some clarification.

[Jim Groves]

Hitting FAQ...

...and wondering what I've done?

Oh well, we'll figure it out. :D

[threemilechild]

Devil's Advocate: Since polymorphs don't actually change what things ARE, just give them some aspects and a bonus to disguise... even if it's pretending to be a weapon, it's really just improvised. ("Weird. I thought I knew how to use daggers, but I seem to be taking a penalty. This must be one of those funny exotics.")

But that's really silly. This thing's schtick is largely pretending to be a weapon (always listed first of various objects), and so naturally, it's going to be pretty good at it; now, polymorphs generally just turn you into a generic version of whatever, which would certainly be good enough for Weapon Focus or Improved Crit, which work with any old dagger you pick up.

I'm not sure about the special metals or the masterwork; it'd be a house rule, but I think with ranks in Craft weapons (which would be passed along to the familiar) you could teach (or entice) your familiar to take forms closer to what you want. ("Francssios, yessss, I know you like sssssscimitarsss, but I have sssssserved for yearsss as a rapier, and I do ssssso enjoy piercsssing the heartsss of my victims.")

As far as enchanting it as a weapon, again technically it's a creature, not an object, and magic is a bit more tricky than knowing that you hit the bad guys with the pointy side. If you could/can enchant them, though, I think it'd keep the enchantment even after changing (although when it was in creature-form, its natural attacks wouldn't benefit). It would be like keen on a transformative weapon; sometimes that ability isn't applicable, but it doesn't disappear.

[Glutton]

John Connor: I need a minute here. Your telling me that this thing can imitate anything it touches?
The Terminator: Anything it samples by physical contact.
John Connor: Get real, like it could disguise itself as a pack of cigarettes?
The Terminator: No, only an object of equal size.
John Connor: Why doesnt it become a bomb or something to get me?
The Terminator: It cant form complex machines, guns and explosives have chemicals, moving parts, it doesn't work that way, but it can form solid metal shapes.
John Connor: Like what?
The Terminator: Knives and stabbing weapons.

[threemilechild]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Shooting a revolver, then having it transform into a demonic snake is just too awesome.

That's funny enough if I were your DM I'd probably let it reload itself by swallowing cartridges. (It'd take it a round to retrieve and swallow the cartridge and then another to turn back into a gun, so overall I don't even think it would be terribly overpowered compared to a wand-jockey.)

[blackbloodtroll]

How can it become a piece of treasure, if it cannot be a precious metal or gem?

[Glutton]

Doesn't need to be made of something to be worth something, just old!

"It belongs in a museum!"

[blackbloodtroll]

Can it become an ornate prosthetic limb?
Would it function as one?

[Glutton]

Yes, you could really snake a leg.
Or, as an arm, show off your pythons.

[Bomanz]

says "small".

an entire limb isn't that small.

I'd say maybe like, a sort of hand, few fingers prosthetic, something that Jaime Lannister would wear.

I'd use it as the head of my cane.

My....Pimp Cane.

[Bomanz]

Glutton wrote:

John Connor: I need a minute here. Your telling me that this thing can imitate anything it touches?

The Terminator: Anything it samples by physical contact.
John Connor: Get real, like it could disguise itself as a pack of cigarettes?
The Terminator: No, only an object of equal size.
John Connor: Why doesnt it become a bomb or something to get me?
The Terminator: It cant form complex machines, guns and explosives have chemicals, moving parts, it doesn't work that way, but it can form solid metal shapes.
John Connor: Like what?
The Terminator: Knives and stabbing weapons.

You win the thread.

[blackbloodtroll]

This thing seems more magical Transformer, than magical T1000.

By the way, I hated John Connor in that movie.

[Glutton]

But he dated Paris Hilton!

[blackbloodtroll]

That is just salt in the wound.

[TetsujinOni]

Jim Groves wrote:

Hitting FAQ...

...and wondering what I've done?

Oh well, we'll figure it out. :D

*evil laughter* This is an *amazingly* cool familiar possibility, Jim!

BUT Oh the questions... and roleplay possibilities... :D

[Ascalaphus]

Wouldn't a Raktavarna weapon still bypass DR as a LE outsider, as well as according to it's own DR? That would actually make it a pretty decent weapon.

I've just got this idea about leaving a Raktavarna somewhere in the loot and watching some greedy player's eyes go all "free poison and all manner of DR penetration? sweet..." while the Raktavarna conceals for as long as possible that it's a creature.

[Gilfalas]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Does a Raktavarna count as the object it is turned into?

Can it be used as the object it is turned into?

I would say no. It takes the SHAPE of that object. It does not TURN INTO such an object. Nothing in the ability description say or even intimates that it is anything but a cosmetic appearance change.

It LOOKS just like a sword or dagger but is still the creature, treat it like an advanced magical camoflage ability. Certain insects in nature look exactly like leaves for example, that in no way makes them actually leaves.

[Icyshadow]

"Made up of smoke, blood, and gold, raktavarnas are the least of the rakshasas. These terrors drift through society, passing from hand to hand as weapons or strange tokens from foreign lands, curiosities brought home by traders and emissaries and given to leaders as tribute."

It would seem fluff-wise to make sense to stat up their current forms as being the weapons they have taken the shape of. This seems to be kind of a tough one, since there's no official answer on the question yet.

[TetsujinOni]

It's using universal monster rules Change Shape, a polymorph effect, to become a Tiny living object.

So the question is, what does 'Tiny living object' mean to the rules, specifically the feat and magic systems.

It is polymorphed by an Su ability. Looking for actual answers based on the polymorph rules and/or dev answers. This is an organized play issue as well, since access to this familiar is given out in

a Pathfinder Society scenario:

The Golden Serpent

.

PRD wrote:

SQ change shape (Tiny living object)

PRD wrote:

Change Shape (Su) As a full-round action, a raktavarna can take the shape of a handheld object, most often an ornamental light, a one-handed weapon, or a piece of treasure. If the rakshasa remains stationary in such a form, it can attempt Stealth checks even while being observed. It can remain motionless in object form indefinitely, but reverts to its true form as soon as it takes any action.

This effect seems most like a Change Shape mixed with polymorph any object (self only, to tiny objects only). The polymorph subschool entry doesn't discuss the possibility of 'living object'. In fact, the raktavarna SQ entry is the only occurrence of that phrase in the PRD.

PRD wrote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Thus... what does 'living object' mean in terms of feat interaction and spell targetability?

[Ascalaphus]

Gilfalas wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Does a Raktavarna count as the object it is turned into?

Can it be used as the object it is turned into?

I would say no. It takes the SHAPE of that object. It does not TURN INTO such an object. Nothing in the ability description say or even intimates that it is anything but a cosmetic appearance change.

It LOOKS just like a sword or dagger but is still the creature, treat it like an advanced magical camoflage ability. Certain insects in nature look exactly like leaves for example, that in no way makes them actually leaves.

And yet you could use such an insect to cover your unmentionables, should you be caught naked with one.

(That sounds just as potentially painful and awkward as using a Raktavarna object)

If it's formed into the shape of a dagger and it's sharp, you could stab someone in the face with it.

[Shalmdi]

My wizard has one of these as a familiar and it is awesome! Understand any language? Check. Never have to prepare Detect Magic again? Check. Hand it to the scout and let him survey the enemy while you use Master's Eyes? Check! The Change Shape was the biggest source of discussion between me and the GM.

As far as the special materials point, I think it is up to GM interpretation. I know some people have referenced Polymorph Any Object. That it is a great frame of reference for making your judgment, but it is completely inapplicable RAW. Change Shape references Polymorph which is a different spell and does not have any rules regarding living-object forms. Going to PAO is logical, but not official. My GM ruled no, and I am okay with that. My familiar has to make a disguise check +10 to fool an appraiser as he cannot even create true gold or silver.

As far as Hardness goes, I argued for yes as a steel weapon; he said none at all. My argument is still that if he could turn into a turtle, he would have a hard shell and not still be soft on top. I also stated that people would notice if the blade was soft to the touch. He argued that it wasn't outlined, and it was too much to add to an already useful ability. Ahh balance issues. I caved on this one as my wizard will probably never make an actual attack with his familiar.

Can it be masterwork? We never actually discussed this, but I would say yes and no. It could try to look masterwork, but unless it/you has ranks in Craft(Weapons) how would it be able to make a balanced blade that actually functioned better?

I cannot really rule on the Firearm point. We don't use them in our campaign and I have read almost nothing about them.

This is a really tough question that I cannot find any exact answer for. If you want the easy way out, just rule it as an Animated Object instead of a Living Object. That seems to me as the closest thing to RAW. Otherwise, just spend some time with the GM working out your rulings. Please note: All the above is just my two coppers on the matter.

[TetsujinOni]

If we haven't heard anything official to clarify the Raktavarna before GenCon I'll bring it up to Mike and Mark for review during the show. It's an open issue in Pathfinder Society as of this summer.

[CaroRose]

I'd say due to the description in Bestiary 3, that I would only accept simple objects and materials for them to turn into. It mentions ornamental lights, a one-handed weapon, or a small piece of treasure.

A Raktavarna can 'look' like a silver dagger, and be used as a dagger, but the Raktavarna will not count as silver for the purposes of overcoming DR.

Also if it takes ANY action, which I would say includes casting spells, it would resume it's natural (snake) form. So casting in battle may not be that beneficial if you're going to use it. Its meant to be a 'spy' device you can get into the hands of your enemies then use to gain information.

Keep in mind that this is an EVIL object. It is also an intelligent creature. Take care when asking your GM for this, for it is opening the door for bad things to happen to your character as a result of your 'familiars' actions. Even if you yourself are evil.

[Selgard]

The alignment of the familiar and subsequent actions thereof are best left for another thread, not this one.

[Weirdo]

My opinions:

Your type doesn't change when you polymorph, so spells targeting weapons won't work on a polymorphed Raktavarna.

You gain natural properties including natural attacks, so a Raktavarna changed into a weapon should function as a normal weapon of that type for purposes of damage dice, type, crit range, proficiency, etc.

The Raktavarna can look like silver with a +10 disguise vs a perception or appraise as appropriate, but doesn't get hardness vs sunder attempts and doesn't pierce DR. This is based on the fact that you don't get [b]all[/d] the properties of the form you turn into. For comparison it takes the higher-level effect Elemental Body III before physical properties like crit immunity are gained, and Elemental Body IV before DR (similar to hardness) applies.

DM's call on whether complicated objects are possible. Some might use the terminator rule to nix the Revolver. I'd use Wood Shape and Stone Shape as a guide and require a percentile roll or craft check to mimic complex objects or items with moving parts.

[TetsujinOni]

There's at least one Paizo product (the PFS scenario that let this conversation start)

We can guess, but..:

where the author has the raktavarna wielded by an NPC as a masterwork shortsword in his combat gear....

I'm inclined to think that since the scenario had to go through review, that capability is intended.

[Mage Evolving]

TetsujinOni wrote:

There's at least one Paizo product (the PFS scenario that let this conversation start) ** spoiler omitted **

I'm inclined to think that since the scenario had to go through review, that capability is intended.

This makes the most sense.

I've had a player running around with one of these for a while now. He has no idea it's a Raktaverna. He just thinks it's a cool looking dagger. It's going to surprise him to learn that his favorite weapon is alive and that he is not it's master...

[blackbloodtroll]

If it can function as a masterwork weapon, can I cast magic weapon upon it?
Would I need to use the magic fang spell?

Could I cast Reinforce Armaments on it, while in weapon or shield form, to increase hardness?

Could I use a Weapon Blanch on it, while in weapon form?

Could it become a Bow or Crossbow?

[TetsujinOni]

JJ has weighed in on it on the creative-sticks-their-oar-in thread. Apparently it's in Pathfinder #7 (I'm guessing that's an AP?)

[blackbloodtroll]

Link?

[pH unbalanced]

CaroRose wrote:

A Raktavarna can 'look' like a silver dagger, and be used as a dagger, but the Raktavarna will not count as silver for the purposes of overcoming DR.

Just want to say that in the AP Module where this was introduced (Edge of Anarchy, the first part of Curse of the Crimson Throne) that this was said explicitly. If it is in the form of a special material weapon, it does not count as that special material.

[blackbloodtroll]

I want to know more about this module, and JJ's posts regarding the Raktavarna.

[TetsujinOni]

OK, here's the links to James Jacobs' responses:

PFS punt back to the GMs.
More general info here.

So, masterwork weapon yes, referenced the AP as pH Unbalanced pointed out, weapon focus, et al work.

Now for the PFS rulings since it's "in the wild" there for a lot of potential cuteness. We'll see how that goes.

[setzer9999]

Hm, I guess based on JJ's response, it can be masterwork, but it can't be enchanted, it can't even have magic weapon cast on it. That makes having it be your weapon more than a little non-optimal.

[blackbloodtroll]

Would Magic Fang work? What about Weapon Blanch?

[setzer9999]

By RAW, and including JJ's response as a baseline for understanding the RAW, I don't think Magic Fang would work. Magic Fang modifies the attack and damage roll for the wielder, even though its cast on the weapon. The ratkavarna isn't making an attack, it's wielder is, so I don't think Magic Fang works there... and then the devs probably also would say that it doesn't work for the same reasons as Magic Weapon... the ratkavarna is still a creature, it isn't a natural weapon, so it's an invalid target.

The Weapon Blanching... too funny. And I don't mean that in an inflamatory way against you, I just actually find it a funny scene to imagine at the table. You have to coat the creature in a substance by bonding nasty chemicals to it with fire for a full round. If you can use Weapon Blanching on the ratkavarna, you can use it on your own fists. I'd say since it isn't a weapon, it isn't a valid target for weapon blanching either... but "targets" don't technically exist in the equipment rules, only in the magic rules. So a strange mix of both wonky and strict RAW interpretation might let you weapon blanch it, but any GM worth a damn would make the creature shriek and transform the moment you stuck it in the fire.

[blackbloodtroll]

With it's DR, I imagine applying the Weapon Blanch would not hurt it.

[Ascalaphus]

Let's face it: this won't get entirely clean or clear rules. I'd do the following -

* if the process to apply weapon blanch penetrates a Raktavarna's DR, then the creature will probably be startled into shapeshifting back to snake form. Awkward.

* I'd let Magic Fang work to improve it in it's weapon shape, not Magic Weapon. And enjoy the player trying to figure out why...

* I wouldn't allow a "silver" Raktavarna to penetrate DR/silver, because Polymorph Any Object doesn't allow that.

* However, the Raktavarna keeps its DR 5/good or piercing

* Also, with the Lawful and Evil subtypes, a Raktavarna can penetrate Chaotic and Good DR.

* if the Raktavarna has "sufficient" skill at Craft(Weapons), I'd let him turn into a Masterwork weapon. With Improved Familiar, its master could provide that skill. Sufficient skill would be +10, so that it can Take 10 on the DC 20 Craft check to make something Masterwork.

* note that since familiars gain their master's HD (if better), a Raktavarna Familiar's poison would have a higher save DC

* I'd allow a Raktavarna weapon to be poisonous too. If the Raktavarna is masquerading as "just an item", this would probably be the first clue the item is not ordinary. (apart from Detect Magic, Law or Evil)

[setzer9999]

DR doesn't prevent fire from hurting you. It's energy damage. It would need resist or immunity to fire for that.

So, I guess you could cast a spell to have it resist or be immune to fire and try it. At which point, I'd rule that the blanching doesn't work because the fire isn't affecting it anymore, and the fire was a necessary part of the process.

[Ascalaphus]

Also, as soon as the critter shapechanges the blanching probably flakes off.