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While reviewing the new players guide for PFS pages 9-11 inferred a lot of Pathfinder Society involvement. It even had the fame and prestige method that was originally presented in the faction book.
I know this has been brought up before but are there plans to allow the Shattered Star AP into PFS play?
I'm asking because it seems the Society will have a big role in this adventure path so it would make sense for this AP.
One suggestion would be to divide each AP into sections similar to how the RoTRL Anniversary edition is.
It would be by level/chapter specific and it would allow those chapters to be used in a similar fashion to how we use Pathfinder Modules.
Each Section would represent the equivalent of a Pathfinder Module
PFS Chronicles could be made to reflect the treasure found in that specific section/chapter.
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It's been stated multiple times that an AP won't be allowed for PFS play because:
1) An AP typically takes you from levels 1-17, and the campaign level cap is still officially 12.
2) If you play an AP, there's not really much reason to play PFS. The AP presents an entire campaign for the entire (adventuring) life of your character. What would be the point to playing PFS with a character that's going through an AP?
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Hey Shivok!
Great idea! I love Adventure Paths, and I love running and playing in them. And you're right, it does seem like its be perfect to play an AP as a part of organized play.
Ok, so, you carve each AP into three parts, right, each being the same length as a module. Well, normally, we schedule 12-15 hours for a module, so, the length of three regular PFS scenarios. So...to finish a single book, you need to play NINE PFS scenarios. And then you need to do that 6 times...so 54 PFS scenarios. Wow. That's a FIFTY-FOUR part scenario. Or, if you want to do the math a different way, most APs go up to 15th level. So, 15x3 means its a 45 part scenario.
Do you have to play all 45 parts in order? Well, that seems kind of hard to do, people have a hard time as is doing 4 part scenarios...which is why they don't make them anymore. So, say you don't have to play them in order, or all on the same character. But wait, APs are written for them to be played by the same party, at the very least for one single book. I don't know what happens in Shattered Star, but in other APs it wouldn't make any sense to just jump in at the middle. In RotRL, they split it up into big chunks. But each part is driven by motivations and the relationships built on each previous part. Also, wouldn't there need to be a venture-captain speech or introduction for every single part, to explain why the party has been sent there, and what they are doing? Sounds like a lot of work. What if you played them out of order? You already have the artifact you're looking for, because you did that last week. Sounds like it kinda defeats the magic of an AP.
Ok, what if you HAD to play them in order? It sounds like it would make the story, which is the best part of an AP, a lot more coherent. But then it sounds like you would have to form a group of people who could meet on a regular basis, and agree to stick it out to the very end of the 45 part campaign arc, and more or less everyone has to come to every game. And what if you affected massive, world shattering changes by your actions as a PC...as has happened in previous APs (impending asteroid, genie wars, starting a kingdom, etc). But then what happens to the wider PFS world? Sure, we've done important things before, like finding the Hao Jin tapestry...but that's kind of different from world shattering events that tend to happen in APs.
Please don't think I mean this in a terrible way. I'm being completely honest. I would LOVE to have the kind of content that is in APs in PFS play...that's why I love modules. But the problem is, APs are build completely differently than any other kind of adventure. They are completely epic in scope, and the wonder and magic of playing them is having these characters who are completely invested in an incredible adventure for their entire careers. And playing with friends who you meet with every week. That's what makes them the worlds most wonderful home campaigns.
Pathfinder Society is completely different, and I think we play and love it for very different reasons. It's fast. It doesn't require you to play a ton of scenarios in a specific order. Every adventure is self-contained...you don't have 30 NPCs and taverns and Roleplaying quirks to keep track of. And you get to play with a whole new bunch of people every time.
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You know Nani, I was going to write a reply much like yours, but this alcohol in front of me has changed my mind around a bit. :-)
I've subscribed to APs for a long time, but I'm ashamed to admit I've never had that chance to play or run one, so take this with a grain of salt.
What if PFS characters were made legal to play the AP in installments? Here's a proposal:
(Each AP volume is usually 2-3 levels, right?)
You can play an entire volume with a single PFS character. It can be volume 1 or any successive volume for the AP you've already played (i.e. Part 2 of the same AP if you played Part 1 and meet the qualifying levels, see below).
You are given 2 chronicles for the volume. One at about the 1/3/-1/2 way point and one at the end. Total gold, prestige and fame are consistent with modules. The first chronicle gives you 3 xp and levels you up (no slow track allowed). The final chronicle give you 3-6 more depending on the AP. Any items found go away when chronicles are awarded.
The AP Volume must be completed before that character can play any other scenarios, modules or AP volumes.
Each Volume has a very narrow level range that PCs must meet.
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Aww. That's too bad. They really are the pinnacle of Paizo's creative and wondrous adventures.
I'm going to be real honest...I think you're REALLY going to miss out by following the PFS rules for an AP. I have a home group that I play APs with, and that same group of people are the ones that form a core of PFS GMs, as well as the group I played Eyes of the Ten with. We used to play PFS a lot more, but now we're all bogged down with running game days, GMing, organizing, etc. So, when we get together for the AP (Kingmaker), we do all the crazy things that we can't do in PFS...we craft items, use crazy 3rd party sources (actually that's just John...have you met him yet?), play evil characters, so on and so forth.
OK, so I wrote that paragraph and realized it wasn't really relevant to this thread. Let me start over. I think you really miss out on the powerful epic nature of an Adventure Path, and the continuity, if you don't play through all of them together.
To a more practical point, so say we do what you propose...that players have to play through an entire book at a time. Or even half of a book at a time. That's still like...6 sessions. With the same group. On a regular basis (because there's no way you could do it in one sitting). From experience, we do marathon sessions of 10+ hours when we do get to play our home game. And it takes probably 3-4 of them to get through an AP book.
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My point is, it's the exact same amount of work and effort as it is to organize a home game. It has all the restrictions of playing PFS...but all the effort of organizing a home game.
The one really positive benefit I see to this is that it could be run at Cons. But then, really you'd have to commit to playing an entire book during a con. Also, how would you possibly find six random people who would be on the same AP you're on, who are also willing to commit their entire weekend to the same game? And if they aren't random and are instead a pre-organized game, then it goes back to the "just play a home game" argument.
Honestly, I see where you are coming from. It might give people who normally only play PFS a chance to experience the greatest adventures ever written. However, I think the logistics of doing so are just crazy, and would involve a ton of additional work to shoehorn the magnificent adventures into the PFS format...that might just not be feasible.
Solution: Move to Georgia.
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One advantage would be the prestige earned. Not so much for the character but for the factions which affects season to season. Dinnae forget that a character who died, or needed to be replaced for some other reason would come in at level one (unless the player already had an appropriate leveled PFS character. I think the 'home game' argument above holds is a good one.
That being said, It should be possible to sanction one part of an AP, like the modules are. But it would be a part of a story with a beginning and and end, the Society would not be a part of. I personally would not spend my PFS on it.
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Ok, so, you carve each AP into three parts, right, each being the same length as a module. Well, normally, we schedule 12-15 hours for a module, so, the length of three regular PFS scenarios. So...to finish a single book, you need to play NINE PFS scenarios.
Actually isnt this how modules are now - the equivalent of 3 PFS Scenarios. If a single book has 3 levels that it will be the equivalent of 9 PFS Scenarios or 3 modules no change from what already exists.
Do you have to play all parts in order?
Yes if want to complete the entire AP you would have to play the 15 module sized chapters. I havent seen any recent AP's above 15th level.
You would have to play each chapter in order which would be the equivalent of 3 Scenarios or 1 Level, if you leveled after that because your character played PFS elsewhere you would not be eligible to play the 2nd level and so on.
The rules could be that in order to play a chapter you would have to be within the correct level bracket. And you would have to play them in order. So If Bob played chapter 1 at 1st level then he played in a few PFS scenarios at his FLGS, leveled to 3rd and then he started up with chapter 3 he could only play the chapter which was level appropriate for him he could not go back and play chapter 2.
I have seen multiple modules used by groups to level up their characters at cons from level 1 to 5. (thats between 8-12 slots, depending on the cons)
But then it sounds like you would have to form a group of people who could meet on a regular basis,
We dont do it now when we play pfs sanctioned modules, people sign up play the required 2-3 slots and complete the mod. So long as the chronicle sheets are separated by 3xp, 4PP.
The one really positive benefit I see to this is that it could be run at Cons. But then, really you'd have to commit to playing an entire book during a con. Also, how would you possibly find six random people who would be on the same AP you're on, who are also willing to commit their entire weekend to the same game? And if they aren't random and are instead a pre-organized game, then it goes back to the "just play a home game" argument.
Honestly, I see where you are coming from. It might give people who normally only play PFS a chance to experience the greatest adventures ever written. However, I think the logistics of doing so are just crazy, and would involve a ton of additional work to shoehorn the magnificent adventures into the PFS format...that might just not be feasible.
I get it but how many people played AP's and not finished them? This would give them an opportunity to complete it.
Sure its not the same group, and it may not have the same magic as a home game but its a way to showcase the premier Paizo product.
PFS at its core is a marketing arm of PFRPG.
This is just a suggestion. Perhaps we could conduct a limited test period to see the feasability - I would recommend letting the PFS group from the Bay Area try it out they are organized enough and maybe two other high play areas.
We dont really know what is possible or what works until we try it.
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Let's keep it simple: PFS and AP's must remain separate. For the sake of portability, cost to players and GM's and keeping down confusion amongst new players.
But there's nothing in the rules that say, you can create "copy" characters and run those "copies" in a Shattered Star campaign. (Pending GM approval of course) Obviously both characters are going to level differences and both characters will be in two different adventures. But if you are the type that would like to do a "Life before or after Pathfinder Society" there's nothing stopping you!
I think it's better that they remain separate but equal, and if a GM who likes PFS decides to run a Shattered Star campaign using PFS build rules, there would be no big issue, and the GM would be able to take the PFS structure any way they like without us all trolling them to death.
My two cents.
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Nani has excellent points on why it wouldn't work at a store or game night. So for regular society play at a game store it might be difficult.
What about home games where the GM is running an adventure path already? I just dont see a benefit of the players in a home campaign of shattered star getting credit, other than to give GMs credit for running.
Maybe after each book the character would have the sheets and be able to swap out characters for another that they have in pfs play. Or retired characters might get to tag in and play a chunk of the adventure to get from 12 to 16 in order to play another module.
It'd be interesting to have the book keeping in chronicle sheets for a game like shattered star, presuming the decemverate could order backup or replacement characters in.
Trouble I have with the long adventure paths is player attrition. Too much of the motivation rests in the build up of playing all the previous parts. So a tpk or a player moving away and a new player starting can really cause things to lose traction. having the chronicles would mean incoming players could use their pfs character to join the group, and players that move away or have to drop out can still use their character for pfs play and retain some extra value from the game.
But a Society AP with new characters that can recover the last groups chronicles and pick up where they left off, or use prestige to get resurrected would be fun.
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This AP certainly sounds like it would be perfect to integrate with PFS play, but my fellow VO's have already given lots of good reasons why that wouldn't be practical.
I think the best way to combine the two are:
- Use the existing sources about the Pathfinders (Seekers of Secrets, Pathfinder Society Field Guide etc) to brief players before character creation and to add extra background info about PFS.
- Use PFS scenarios as side-quests during play of the AP. This may require some adjustment of either, especially to account for treasure and xp.
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This AP certainly sounds like it would be perfect to integrate with PFS play
This is why I originally started the thread. I already know what the official party line is on PFS use of AP's.
But this particular AP has a different feel to it. If about 20 of the Season 4 scenarios are based in and around Varisia it makes even more sense. Your idea of using the other PFS scenarios as a sort of side-quest is excellent.
I know it my be challenging but it is possible to try this out in limited groups/play regions.
I'd be willing to try this out in my region and I would be the first one to admit if it didnt work.
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[But this particular AP has a different feel to it. If about 20 of the Season 4 scenarios are based in and around Varisia it makes even more sense. Your idea of using the other PFS scenarios as a sort of side-quest is excellent.
That's what I would want to do if I was going to GM this AP. I would put them on the slow track and add in all the little extra PFS scenarios as side quests.
Also, if anyone wants to GM this AP and wants to find extra content to help flesh it out, there is a LOT of good stuff over on the Rise of the Runelords section of the boards. Im sure some of it wold translate very easily into Shattered Star.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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I really wish I had found this thread sooner. I had been wondering why APs were not allowed for society use and everything that I have seen here makes sense. Even though an AP may scream PFS use, it does not seem practical to use this material (if my interpretation is incorrect, please let me know). As the APs do give a diversion from PFS scenarios and modules, I enjoy the opportunities I get to play in them on the night I do not GM. Thank you for this thread and providing the opportunity to learn more.