Apologies if this is a tired topic, but I haven't seen a similar thread and its been on my mind quite a bit again lately while looking at PF fighter weapon options. As long as damage was the only factor I didn't care enough to dwell on it, but along comes the ability to inflict debuffs - even multiple debuffs - on a critical hit, and its feeling like an issue. For the fighter class specifically its even worse, as weapon training and weapon mastery further erode the advantages that are supposed to balance threat range.
Otherwise equal level 20 fighters, scimitar vs dwarven war axe:
Scimitar - three times more threat for x3 + debuffs.
Dwarven War Axe - +2 damage, one third as much threat for x4 + debuffs.
I lately saw an excellent idea that a critical threat should be triggered by beating an opponent's AC by a wide enough margin, but that's probably too radical a change for most gamers (and devs).
Anyhow, discuss away, or don't if you find the topic a little stale...
I really don't like comparisons that focus on level 20... really how many games do you play where your character is actually level 20?
I really don't like comparisons that focus on level 20... really how many games do you play where your character is actually level 20?
One recently by design (started higher, rapid increase), but while it may be at its worst for a 20 fighter, its not confined to that. Critical hit debuff comes into play at 11 I think, and double debuff by 14.
I don't think so. Some weapons are just statistically better than others, and so are some feats, and class abilities in certain situations.
There are not too many things that I can say are broken(over powered) for the game as a whole. I can't think of anything right now at all.
Axes are household items that can be used in combat as well...
I don't like the idea of beating the targets AC by enough means a critical threat. It adds another layer of calculation, takes away the "whoa, I rolled a 20" effect and doesn't add too much to the game.
There are a bunch of cheesy min max weapons out there (Kukri, Falcata...) which is more of a problem than the rules itself.
I think the problem (if you want to call it so) lies not in the weapons but in the multiplier done by keen and the like.
While the difference of 20x4 (scythe) and 18-20x2 (scimitar) seems ok that changes with keen factored in.
If you use the right weapon for your build every combination of thread and multiplier can be strong.
But as long as it is seen as normal to use keen scimitars but as cheese to combine a kukri TWFer with butterfly sting and a scythe wielder it will stay as it is.
One recently by design (started higher, rapid increase), but while it may be at its worst for a 20 fighter, its not confined to that. Critical hit debuff comes into play at 11 I think, and double debuff by 14.I really don't like comparisons that focus on level 20... really how many games do you play where your character is actually level 20?
However, only the fighter is going to be able to do the double debuff. IF you consider that every other class (who all get less feats to work with) will at best get one, it's not that big of a problem.
Your critical hits cause two additional effects.
Prerequisites: Critical Focus, any two critical feats, 14th-level fighter.
By the time critical threat becomes a problem the primary casters have already left martial classes in the dust anyways. I think the critical focus chain goes a long way in return balance to martial classes although what is missing is an equivalent chain for low threat range/high crit multiplier weapons.
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Overall, I think, at least once keen or Improved Critical comes in, the higher crit range has better performance than the higher multiplier. Adding additional features (one or more) on crits just exacerbates that.
Let's take, for simplicity, Falchion vs. Scythe. Both are two-handed martial weapons, 2d4. Falchion is 18-20/x2, Scythe is x4.
Let's now assume, for more simplicity, just one attack, on which you need to roll an 11 or higher to hit, and have +12 bonus damage.
Both have a 50% chance of scoring a hit for 2d4+12, approximately 17 damage, when we discount crits.
Incorporating crits, without Critical Focus, the Falchion has a 15% chance for a critical threat, of which half will confirm, so 7.5% chance of crit, and 42.5% chance of hit. Scythe has a 5% chance for a critical threat, of which half will confirm, so 2.5% chance of crit and 47.5% chance of hit.
Falchion: 42.5% x 17 + 7.5% x 34 = 7.225 + 2.55; expected damage per swing of 9.775.
Scythe: 47.5% x 17 + 2.5% x 68 = 8.075 + 1.7; expected damage per swing of 9.775.
Now let's add in keen or Improved Critical.
Crit ranges now go from 18-20 to 15-20 (30% threat chance) for Falchion, and 20 to 19-20 (10% threat chance) for Scythe.
Falchion: 35% x 17 + 15% x 34 = 5.95 + 5.1 = expected damage per swing of 11.05.
Scythe: 45% x 17 + 5% x 68 = 7.65 + 3.4 = expected damage per swing of 11.05.
Still balanced with each other, assuming nothing but weapon damage to be applied, and no DR, etc.
Let's now add Critical Focus; +4 to confirm crits increases your effective critical chance by 20%; 70% of crit threats will confirm.
Falchion: 29% x 17 + 21% x 34 = 4.93 + 7.14 = expected damage per swing of 12.07.
Scythe: 43% x 17 + 7% x 68 = 7.31 + 4.76 = expected damage per swing of 12.07.
So dealing purely with a single attack and only with raw weapon damage, the properties are balanced.
Now, getting less mathy, let's think about what in the game makes either a larger crit range, or a higher critical multiplier, more appealing.
Creatures with substantial damage reduction which you do not penetrate may privilege higher multipliers somewhat; certainly a higher multiplier leads to a higher chance to cause an instant kill via massive damage (though I don't count on that happening). Coup de Grace is too niche to be a significant reason.
Elemental burst properties, perhaps? a 21% chance for 1d10 damage vs. a 7% chance for 3d10 looks even. So no, that one's neutral.
Really, the presence of the critical feats, not Critical Focus itself, but the others, and the Magus' Spellstrike class features, are what provide a benefit to larger crit range over higher critical multiplier. Because these additional features are not affected by the weapon's critical multiplier. If I'm a Magus, I will see a higher return with an 18-20/x2 weapon because I will end up confirming my intensified shocking grasp criticals 21% of the time instead of 7%... for 20d6 either way. If I'm using critical feats, I've got a 21% chance of applying one or more penalties, instead of a 7% chance.
If these features scaled with critical multiplier, they could remain balanced. For Spellstrike, the obvious answer would be to either let the spell borrow the weapon's critical multiplier, or retain its natural crit range. For the critical feats, perhaps durations or save DCs could be scaled based on your weapon's critical multiplier. For other effects that trigger on critical hits, we'd need some similar form of scaling.
One recently by design (started higher, rapid increase), but while it may be at its worst for a 20 fighter, its not confined to that. Critical hit debuff comes into play at 11 I think, and double debuff by 14.I really don't like comparisons that focus on level 20... really how many games do you play where your character is actually level 20?
However, only the fighter is going to be able to do the double debuff. IF you consider that every other class (who all get less feats to work with) will at best get one, it's not that big of a problem.
** spoiler omitted **
Ah, I forgot that critical mastery was fighter 14 and not just +14. Doesn't make choosing an axe more palatable for a pure fighter dwarf I was thinking of for another quick-leveling campaign but at least it lessens the issue for other classes.
Anyhow, I know most people are just fine with introducing other weapons that 'borrow' the stats of something in-game; its a great way to get creative, maybe research some less known historical weapons, and give a character a signature weapon as a joy-drop at some relevant point. I think maybe a pair of 'ancient dwarven francisca' would make some pretty badass slice-n-dice axes - google francisca images and tell me that doesn't look like it should be higher-crit, lower die. Maybe scimitar stats plus throw, but exotic even for a dwarf.
Yes, I don't like the fact that a 18-20/x2 weapon is so much better than a 20/x4 weapon with a higher base damage too, at least after a certain point.
Maybe if the critical feats actually took into account the damage multiplier too?
A x2 weapon can only apply 1 critical feat, a x3 weapons two and a x4 weapon three feats at the same time?
Or the damage/debuff of those weapons actually gets multiplied by x2 and x3 etc? So you might not apply your debuff that often, but when you do, it's a really devestating one.
Does probably not work for every debuff though.
What could be done as a house rule is to allow the high crit weapons like scythes or greataxes to apply longer durations on status affects, assuming anyone even survives a crit from a scythe anyway.
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After seeing yet one more wall of text of expected damage calculation, I have to point out there's a much simpler way to do the mathematics.
After simplifying, factoring out common expressions, etc. it turns out that the expected damage for a melee attack, D, can be written as
D = (1 + C)*W
Where W is the expected damage for the weapon being used (ignoring any extra damage from critical hits), and C is the chance of a critical threat (not the chance of a critical hit) multiplied by the number of additional damage dice (not the total number of dice).
So a longsword (threat range 19-20/x2) ends up doing 10% extra damage; a heavy pick (20/x4) would do 15%.
Note that bonuses to hit and to damage (from strength, dexterity, plusses on weapons, buffs, etc.) only show up in one place - the calculation of W.
I have never liked any of the mechanics surrounding critical hits in PF. Believe it or not, I actually like the "automatic max damage" on a crit more.
If this were my game I would never have introduced ways to expand crit ranges which spawned the entire category of "crit fisher" builds. Getting a crit every third roll of the die just cheapens the whole concept of a critical hit in the first place, and then having someone get quintuple damage plus knock prone and remove spleen just gets silly.
Of course all of this is probably colored by the mathematically implausible but historically incontrovertible fact that I never roll a damn crit....
At times, I have pondered changing Keen and Improved Critical so that they only increase the threat range of a weapon by 1 instead of doubling it. Maybe I would then make up for it a bit by allowing them to stack...
Not sure if I like the idea of a 18-20 crit range on a scythe, but at least then players may put a bit more thought into whether they want to go with the 18-20/x2 crit weapon or the 20/x3 or x4 weapon.
At times, I have pondered changing Keen and Improved Critical so that they only increase the threat range of a weapon by 1 instead of doubling it. Maybe I would then make up for it a bit by allowing them to stack...
Not sure if I like the idea of a 18-20 crit range on a scythe, but at least then players may put a bit more thought into whether they want to go with the 18-20/x2 crit weapon or the 20/x3 or x4 weapon.
Conceptually its always annoyed me that a deadly-sharp weapon and an aptitude for hitting people where it hurts didn't stack in any way, though I've often considered 'Keen' kind of odd conceptually anyhow, as it makes a +1 keen weapon 'sharper' than a +5. I've had the same thoughts about changing the nature of the bonuses, but of course its a really slippery balance area (which is undoubtedly the reason it is what it is at the moment). Its useful often to work backwards from desired end result... how would people feel about a system where the three-point critical weapon ends up at 16-20 instead of 15-20, but otherwise things are the same? One-point threat still has its x3 or x4, three-point threat still has a critical hit advantage over everything else, and two-point threat x2 isn't getting totally overshadowed by three-point.
Oh, come on guys... who here has seen the crit tables for anything by Iron Crown Enterprises?
(Hint: hobbit with a dagger can really ruin your day with an open-ended roll.)