Weapon and Armour Proficiency:
Unarmed strikes and weapons with the Monk special quality are considered Special Monk Weapons.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, an unarmed monk or a monk wielding a Special Monk Weapon(s) can make a Flurry of Blows as a full-attack action. When doing so a monk is considered to be dual wielding a weapon in their primary-hand and a second weapon in their off-hand for the purpose using the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) [1]. The monk must make all attacks, including additional attacks granted from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s), using unarmed strike or the Special Monk Weapon in any combination. Additional attacks granted from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) are not required to be made with an off-hand weapon. The monk applies his full (1x) Strength bonus to damage rolls for all successful attacks made, including primary, off-hand, and two-handed weapon attacks.
A monk may also substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for any attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
[1] The Two-Weapon Fighting feat(s) include Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and any other Two-Weapon feats that that require Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite.
Two Weapon Fighting (combat): At 1st level, the monk gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (combat): At 8th level, the monk gains the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (combat): At 15th level, the monk gains the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Unarmed Master (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a monk’s unarmed strike becomes a masterwork weapon, granting a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. This may be further enhanced as any other manufactured masterwork weapon. The cost of enhancing the monk’s unarmed strike with a permanent weapon enhancement is the same as a enhancing both ends of a double weapon.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Blind Fight, Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Scorpion Style, Throw Anything and Weapon Focus. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Blind Fight, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility, Vital Strike and Two Weapon Rend. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
At 14th level, the following feats are added to the list: Greater Blind Fight, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Grapple, Greater Sunder, Greater Trip. The monk only needs the corresponding improved feat as prerequisite to select one of these greater feats. For example, Greater Trip requires Improved Trip as a prerequisite, but Improved Expertise and all other prerequisites can be ignored.
Monastic Specialization (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a monk attacking with a Special Monk Weapon (including unarmed strike) treats his monk level as his base attack bonus from his monk class levels, for the determination of his total base attack bonus, number of attacks, CMB, and CMD. For all other purposes, such as attacks with non-monk weapons or qualifying for a feat or prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
Ki Pool (Su): The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier.
Fast Movement (Ex):
From level 7, as a swift action, the monk can move 5 feet by spending 1 point from his ki pool. From level 14, once per round as a free action, the monk can move an additional 5 feet by spending 2 points from his ki pool. At level 20, the monk can move 5 foot as immediate action by spending 3 points from his ki pool. This additional (swift, free and immediate action) movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This movement stacks with the Move Action when a Standard Action is taken by the monk, and with a five-foot step during a Full Round Action.
Catfall (Su): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, he reduces the damage inflicted from a fall by 1d6 per monk level he possesses, to a maximum reduction of 20d6 at 20th level. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to rapidly descend great distances quickly. A monk gains the benefits of this ability so long as he has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool.
Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. This quivering palm consumes 5 ki and he must announce his intent before making a Standard Action attack roll. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + the monk's Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target takes 1d6 damage per two monk levels (round down) and the quivering palm ends. A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect per monk level above 14 at one time, any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated. The monk may remove a quivering palm from an intended victim as a move action.
Interesting. You've taken a very minimalist approach, which I approve of, and you have addressed the issue of a monk's unarmed strike and enhancement by making the unarmed strike enhanceable. You have also resolved flurry of blows to just BE two-weapon fighting - that's got some advantages, but it will also annoy some players.
Problem is, how does that work with two-handed weapons (and bows, for that matter)? It also means the monk has to take the Double Slice feat if he wants to keep his off-hand damage, and it forces some existing builds to be reconstructed.
I like the Greater feats in the bonus feat list.
There are some archetypes that will need serious reworking for this class in spite of it keeping a lot of the original features, but it's a valiant effort.
Do you want to post it up with the others here?
Hello Dabbler,
Thankyou for the prompt response and praise.
Problem is, how does that work with two-handed weapons (and bows, for that matter)? It also means the monk has to take the Double Slice feat if he wants to keep his off-hand damage, and it forces some existing builds to be reconstructed.
Flurry of blows is a virtual off-hand weapon with some special caveats to allow it to work unarmed, with one monk weapon, two monk weapons, or a two handed weapon. It effectively grants the double slice feats for Special Monk Weapons (including unarmed strike). This fits nicely with the existing text that states there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, an unarmed monk or a monk wielding a Special Monk Weapon(s) can make a Flurry of Blows as a full-attack action. When doing so a monk is considered to be dual wielding a weapon in their primary-hand and a second weapon in their off-hand for the purpose using the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) [1]. The monk must make all attacks, including additional attacks granted from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s), using unarmed strike or the Special Monk Weapon in any combination. Additional attacks granted from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) are not required to be made with an off-hand weapon. The monk applies his full (1x) Strength bonus to damage rolls for all successful attacks made, including primary, off-hand, and two-handed weapon attacks.
Your right the Zen Archer archetype may still need an errata. The simplest would to make the the 'Bow' a Special Monk Weapon for the Zen Archer class. Unless the class already tags it with the 'monk' special property.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
I would make it a monk special weapon for my monk build, but then my build divorces Fob from TWF deliberately for that purpose. All the same I know with my build, I will have to re-write a lot of archetypes anyway, though it should be straightforward.
This of course is the problem with trying to 'fix' the monk, there are so many archetypes to address.
I see where you're going with this, but I don't think this would make a good errata, simply because it completely throws off the page layout. I'm not sure if you read SKR's big post, but he mentioned that they couldn't add any clarifying text to the Monk because all the books refer to things in the CRB by specific page number. If you added extra words that changed the page number, than every book would need to be reprinted with the correct page numbers, and I don't think that's a feasible choice.
Any Monk errata, I think, needs to use up the same page space, while clarifying things as much as possible. If someone were to figure out exactly how many words are in the Monk entry (not that hard at all), and then design the class with that information in mind, then things could possibly be fixed. I'm sure extra text could be deleted from some place, so other entries could become longer. But I've never even attempted to design a class, so I don't know how well this would work.
[Edit]SKR's Big Damn Post.
Cookies for the reference.
Just for clarity here:
I don't want the monk merely patched, I want it fixed. I agree that it's hard to play an effective monk, the monk rules are convoluted, and it's expensive in terms of magic item and ability score needs. But I don't know that the monk can be sufficiently fixed without requiring significantly more explanatory text in the Core Rulebook--which we can't add without messing up the layout for pages and pages, which we can't do because we have that book and other books referring to things in the Core Rulebook by specific page number. I--and the other designers--don't want to just slap a bandage on it and call it good; this is a significant concern, just like the stealth rules, and deserves careful consideration.
I think the first order of the day is work out what changes we would want, then work out how to fill the pages.
Hello Again Fellow Pathfinders,
I had a look at the word count on the weekend and I'm pretty sure the essence of this monk errata could fit within the word count after some of the redundant text is pruned. According to Word, the word count on is 2414 words and 11055 characters including headings. However, before I do this and revise the monk text to be word-count-neutral, I would like some feedback on the capabilities of this monk. Some features may have to go.
Some things that I noticed:
- The two weapon fighting (TWF) feats will need to be granted within flurry of blows (FoB) class feature, so that the archetypes that loose FoB don't get the TWF feats.
- It’s better not change the titles of class features, so that there is less errata needed for the archetypes. This means that, while I like the name 'Monastic Specialization' better than 'Maneuver Training', it may be easier to keep this old name and replace the content. The also applies to ‘Cat Fall’ and ‘Slow Fall’.
- Granting the TWF feats as part of FoB and allowing Monks to make use of these feats in a non-standard manner is probably the core to any errata. I think there is a desire at Pazio to unify mechanics. This also has the benefit of allowing multi/prestige- class monks to pick up the improved and greater TWF feats through their other class.
- I really like the extra swift, and immediate actions added to Fast Movement. They are subtle and really help with monk with the mobile combatant role. What do you think of the capstone immediate action, too powerful? Prune this text?
- Unarmed Mastery clarifies the ability of the unarmed strike to be permanently enhanced. It seems like a fair solution to the monk’s problems.
- I consider increasing the Ki Pool as plucking the low hanging fruit. It doesn’t impact monk effectiveness, as almost every Ki ability is a swift action, just staying power.
- I think all monk abilities should run off Ki for consistency. The text for quivering palm can be shortened. Having multiple quivering palms is awesome for evil monks… but this is the first place I am going to prune text so this will probably go.
- While I like all the extra bonus feats, some may have to go to save space, which are not critical?
Kind Regards,
Stragen
Making Flurry work like TWF, I think, doesn't work, as then more errata has to be made so the Sohei, Zen Archer, and all the Monks published in Pathfinder Society Scenarios have to be errat'd as well, to fix the misunderstanding in the FOB text.
The simplest fix for FOB is to allow 1 weapon flurries, so nothing really needs to change in that regard. This would drastically reduce the need for errata, and reduce the amount of work the Paizo team has to do to fix the Monk.
Hello Pathfinders,
Please find the full document
Some Features:
- 2405 words including headings, less than the current monk entry
- Flurry of Blows allows for one-weapon, two-weapon, or one two-handed-weapon, flurry
- Monks with the Flurry of Blows class feature get the Two Weapon Fighting feats. This qualifies them for later feats
- Monk's don't have to make extra attacks from Two-Weapon-Fighting with their 'off-hand'
- Monks always deal strength damage during a Flurry of Blows. They don't need the double-slice feat
- Monks can move up to 10 extra feet as a swift action by spending Ki. They can do this in conjunction with a five foot step on a full action. Or in addition to a move action + standard action
- Full BAB when using special monk weapons and unarmed strike
- Unarmed strike can be permanently enhanced
- Multi-classing with Monk is viable, but a one level dip discouraged.
- More bonus feats, including the 'Greater' feats
- Bigger Ki Pool
- High level abilities are more useful, and based on Ki
- Flurry with any Two Handed Monk Weapon - Compatible with archetypes
- No new class features. - Compatible with archetypes
- Redundant text removed
I have the version with changes tracked if anyone wants it.
My thoughts. I think increasing the BAB may be too much when combined with the ultimate combat feats. Also, the title of the class feature 'Maneuver Training' was kept for compatibility with archetypes. However, it now doesn't fit the text of the feat. I may kill the full BAB and make Maneuver Training impact only CMB and CMD. This would also be more kosher with current game rules. Due to space requirements I had to skimp on the flavour text. However, this may make the mechanics easier to read. Proof reading and comments welcome.
This document shows that its possible to make an awesome monk that fills his role as a mobile combatant within the existing space limitations.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
There is a small typo in the Stunning fist entry, you hit Enter instead of Space after, "At 20th level, he can paralyze the target".
Maneuver Training: I'd suggest adding that maneuver training also includes combat maneuvers. As it stands, the Monk is using his 3/4th BAB for CMB and CMD. This way, there would be a reason to call it 'Maneuver Training' instead of 'Weapon Training'.
I know a lot of people dislike Still Mind because it's limitation to enchantment spells and effects. You might consider changing it to minde-effecting spells, that way it can include many things like illusions.
Slow Fall: Something occurs to me about the reducing damage. Is the damage reduced as say I fall and would normally take 5d6 points of damage, but is reduced to 1d6 by Slow Fall, or do I roll out 5d6 (and total 18) and reduce it by rolling 4d6 (and get 9) then total it together (for 9 points of damage)?
Abundant Step: It still contains one of the flaws of the ability. That is, that once a Monk uses Abundant Step, his turn ends, just like Dimension Door. If possible, you might try and squeeze in that a Monk's turn does not end when using Abundant Step.
Diamond Body: Some consider this an almost worthless ability as the majority of spell casters one goes up against, are already higher level than the Monk. They will be rolling a 1d20 + 13 or higher, giving them a 50/50 change of overcoming the Monks SR. You might consider changing it to 12 + Monk level.
Quivering Palm: This part needs some clarification:
"A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect per monk level above 14 at one time, any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated."
I'm not quite certain what the "above 14" is referring to. Are you trying to say. "A Monk can only have one quivering palm in effect at 15th level. At 16th level and every level thereafter, a Monk can maintain an additional Quivering Palm."
If that's what you're trying to say, it might be easier, and save words, to say that a Monk can only have 1 quivering palm in effect per wisdom modifier. It might seem a little powerful, but it'd be easier to keep track of and save word space.
======================
I really like this Errata. I think the Devs could really do something with it. There's probably some stuff in here they wouldn't use, and others they could clarify a little, but I really think this is something to be used as an example.
While I have often enjoyed many of the Monk threads, most of the revisions have been so far different that the Monk wouldn't be backwards compatible with the 3.5 Monk. In this write up, I think you've managed to fix some of the Monk's faults, but also keep it fairly close to the 3.5 Monk, close enough that it wouldn't be very hard to adapt.
Well done, Stragen. Well done, indeed.
MA
It's not my favourite monk design, but I like it a lot.
Making the monk's unarmed strike enchantable is not specifically spelled out clearly, though I know this was your intention, it's only implied. I think this needs to be made clear.
Flurry of blows is unclear that it allows the one-weapon-flurry. If you intended this, it needs to be clear.
Abundant Step still takes a feat-tax to work properly.
Very interesting and well done, Stragen. I was rather frustrated with GoogleDocs not allowing me to properly print to PDF, and I noticed that the "save" option had been disabled. Is your tracked-changes version a PDF or Word document? If so, I'd love to get a copy.
Many thanks!
Hello Tels,
Thankyou for the thorough review and proof reading.
- As CMB and CMD are both calculated off BAB maneuver training improves both.
- Made still mind a flat +2 will saving throw bonus, against spells and spell-like abilities. This seems a little powerful as monks already have good will saves.
- updated slow fall.” In calculating falling damage he reduces the number of dice rolled by 1d6 per monk level he possesses.”
- Leaving abundant step as is so that it doesn’t step on the toes of the Ultimate Combat Feat chain.
- Leaving Diamond Body text as it. It helps with cannon fodder casters, but not so much against the big bad boss guy.
- Leaving Quivering palm text as is, as you understood it correctly. The current text is 32 words; the replacement text would be 40 words. “A Monk can only have one quivering palm in effect at 15th level. At 16th level and every level thereafter, a Monk can maintain an additional Quivering Palm. Any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated.” This can be changed to the longer version if there is space.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
Hello Dabbler,
Thankyou for the feedback.
- Please note that weapons can not be ‘enchanted’, only enhanced. I have updated the unarmed master text to make this clear that unarmed strike can be made into a magical weapon.
Unarmed Master (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk’s unarmed strike becomes a masterwork weapon, granting a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. This may be further enhanced into a magical weapon using the rules for Creating Magic Weapons, at the same cost as a enhancing both ends of a double weapon.
- I have left flurry of blows text unchanged, as being able to one-hand flurry seems clear to me.
- I have removed the following text from unarmed strike “There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.” This was causing confusion in combining two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. I replaced it with “A monk may substitute an unarmed attack for an off-hand weapon attack, and uses the standard penalties for Two-Weapon Fighting for his attacks.” This ability to do full strength damage with off-hand attacks is covered under flurry of blows; this is effectively the same as the double slice feat. Monk archetypes that lose Flurry of Blows, and wish to go down the two-weapon fighting path can do so, but they have to buy double slice feat.
- Leaving abundant step as is so that it doesn’t step on the toes of the Ultimate Combat Feat chain.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
Hello Jakk,
This document was still an early draft. I provide a pdf downloadable version shortly. Unfortunately google-drive removes the changes tracked from the word version. I’ll see what I can do later.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
- As CMB and CMD are both calculated off BAB maneuver training improves both.
This is incorrect. Your Maneuver Training only enhances the BAB of attacks made with special monk weapons. Combat Maneuvers that can be enhanced by weapons are Disarm, Trip, and Sunder (possibly Dirty Trick depending on the trick used). No other maneuver can have your CMB altered by the weapon used. So Maneuver Training would not enhance:
- Bull Rush
- Dirty Trick (depending on the trick)
- Drag
- Grapple
- Overrun
- Reposition
- Steal
And CMD is never modified by your weapon bonuses. So Maneuver Training doesn't really benefit the Monk when it comes to performing, or defending against, combat maneuvers.
- Leaving Diamond Body text as it. It helps with cannon fodder casters, but not so much against the big bad boss guy.
The problem is, the BBEG caster is where he needs it most. The Monk is most likely going to make his save vs the canon fodder casters, so that really isn't an issue. It's the BBEG that is. If an allied Monk fails his save vs spells like the illusion and enchantment schools, he can be taken out of the fight entirely, or worse, turned against the party. Even a poorly built monk is very good at screwing over casters, and having your own well built monk turned against the party wizard, could easily lead to a TPK. But this is largely true of any of the 'melee' classes, but since the Monk has SR, it should be one that's actually some-what useful.
- Leaving Quivering palm text as is, as you understood it correctly. The current text is 32 words; the replacement text would be 40 words. “A Monk can only have one quivering palm in effect at 15th level. At 16th level and every level thereafter, a Monk can maintain an additional Quivering Palm. Any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated.” This can be changed to the longer version if there is space.
My suggestion would be to change: "A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect per monk level above 14 at one time, any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated" which is 30 words.
To this: A monk can have a number quivering palms in effect equal to his Wisdom modifier; any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated" which is 27 words. One could theoretically shave off "to use quivering palm" to save a few words as they really aren't needed.
I have updated the unarmed master text to make this clear that unarmed strike can be made into a magical weapon.
Unarmed Master (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk’s unarmed strike becomes a masterwork weapon, granting a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. This may be further enhanced into a magical weapon using the rules for Creating Magic Weapons, at the same cost as a enhancing both ends of a double weapon.
Is there any cap on this? One thing that the Powers That Be have said is that they do not want to invalidate the use of the Amulet of Mighty Fists by providing anything cheaper and better.
Leaving abundant step as is so that it doesn’t step on the toes of the Ultimate Combat Feat chain.
Actually, it wouldn't, as those feats can be used as easily by any caster that can cast dimension door.
Unarmed Master (Ex):... at the same cost as a enhancing both ends of a double weapon.
Is there any cap on this? One thing that the Powers That Be have said is that they do not want to invalidate the use of the Amulet of Mighty Fists by providing anything cheaper and better.
Only the cap provided by the rules. Enhancing a double weapon is more expensive than an AoMF. I think something better than AoMF is needed. I do like your built in enchancements. This approach is just trying to use the existing crafting system. I may add some separate fluff text of example organisations and people who provide this type of enchancement service.
Actually, it wouldn't, as those [Dimensional] feats can be used as easily by any caster that can cast dimension door.
A pure monk can pick up Dimensional Agility at 13th level, Dimensional Assault at 15th and Dimensional Dervish at 17th using their feats. Of course we could have Abundant Step grow to gradually grant some or all of these feats. But isn't this too much power? This seems something that a monk Archetype could be based upon, in exchange for giving up other class features. Such an archetype should get abundant step earlier.
Hello Tels,
The intent and wording is to have the Base Attack Bonus of the monk increase from Maneuver Training. I agree that modifying Attack Bonus would only help that weapon. I included unarmed strike in the definition of 'Special Monk Weapons' earlier in the text. If it is still not clear, then the only option would be to add more words, to make the increase to CMB and CMD explicit. Or perhaps just a FAQ.
Increasing the BAB with Special Monk Weapons is needed to maintain the Flurry of Blows attack bonuses and number of attacks, See Table 3-10 Monk.
Also, what did you think of the Flurry of Blows text? It seems clear to me, but Dabbler was concerned that it wasn't clear, and I value your opinion on the text.
Changing Quivering Palms in effect to be based on wisdom seems a little powerful. It front loads the class feature instead of increasing with level. Though it is worth considering for the word saving. These saved words could be used to clarify Maneuver Training.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
Unarmed Master (Ex):... at the same cost as a enhancing both ends of a double weapon.Is there any cap on this? One thing that the Powers That Be have said is that they do not want to invalidate the use of the Amulet of Mighty Fists by providing anything cheaper and better.Only the cap provided by the rules. Enhancing a double weapon is more expensive than an AoMF. I think something better than AoMF is needed. I do like your built in enchancements. This approach is just trying to use the existing crafting system. I may add some separate fluff text of example organisations and people who provide this type of enchancement service.
Double weapon enchants each head of the weapon as a separate weapon, but assuming you mean to enchant as if it were two weapons of the same enhancement bonus, it would cost {bonus squared} x 4000gp. On the flip side, the AoMF costs {bonus squared} x 5000gp. The AoMF is capped at +5, weapons are capped at +10.
Actually, it wouldn't, as those [Dimensional] feats can be used as easily by any caster that can cast dimension door.A pure monk can pick up Dimensional Agility at 13th level, Dimensional Assault at 15th and Dimensional Dervish at 17th using their feats. Of course we could have Abundant Step grow to gradually grant some or all of these feats. But isn't this too much power? This seems something that a monk Archetype could be based upon, in exchange for giving up other class features. Such an archetype should get abundant step earlier.
Problem is, abundant step isn't worth much unless you have the feats, making it's use a feat-tax.
Maybe I'm not being clear, as there seems to be some confusion. Okay your Monk stats:
From 3rd level, the Base Attack Bonus of a monk wielding only Special Monk Weapons (including an unarmed monk) is equal to his monk level.
Now I'll get back to this in a moment.
The Defending Weapon Property states:
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
Now this FAQ states that you must wield the weapon to gain the benefits of it. This also means the word wielder has special meaning in Pathfinder.
Now this FAQ states that anything that modifies your attack roll when using a weapon in a Combat Maneuver, modifies that Maneuver as well. So if you use Weapon Finesse and a Rapier and attempt a Disarm, you would use your Dexterity in place of your Strength for the calculation of your CMB.
Because you can only normally use a weapon for Disarm, Sunder, and Trip attempts, you won't be able to use your Maneuver Training for any of the other Combat Maneuvers as your are not wielding the special monk weapons.
My suggestion is to change Maneuver Training to say: At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level to calculate his BAB when wielding special monk weapons, his CMB and CMD.
=====================
Your Flurry of Blows feature is a little confusing as you reiterate some things twice.
Starting at 1st level, an unarmed monk or a monk wielding a Special Monk Weapon(s) can make a Flurry of Blows as a full-attack action. When doing so the monk gains extra attacks as if they were Two-Weapon Fighting, and may make use of the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) [1] without an off-hand weapon. These extra attacks, including those granted from the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s), are not required to be made with an off-hand weapon. The monk must make all attacks using unarmed strike or the Special Monk Weapon in any combination. The monk applies his full (1x) Strength bonus to damage rolls for all successful attacks made, including primary, off-hand (There is no Off-hand?), and two-handed weapon attacks. A monk may also substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for any attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks. A monk with the Flurry of Blows class feature gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 1st level, the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 8th level, and the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 15th level, even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for these feats.
[1] Two-Weapon Fighting feat(s) include: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and any other Two-Weapon feats that that require Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite.
I think your goal was to make the intent really clear, but you end up using extra words and muddling it a little bit. Your Flurry of Blows uses 242 words, I'm going to try and shrink it down a bit and see if I can't also make it clearer.
Starting at 1st level, a Monk gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, to make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. He can only make a flurry of blows when fighting unarmed or while using a Special Monk Weapon. While making a flurry of blows, the monk adds his full strength bonus to both his primary and off-hand attacks; even when using a two-handed weapon, the monk only uses 1x his strength modifier. He can make his attacks in any combination, including using one weapon for all attacks.
A monk may also substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for any attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
The monk gains the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 8th level, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. At 15th level, the monk gains Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
This one totals 183 words, and I think is clear in it's function and intent. But, since I wrote it, it's very clear to me, and I need others to confirm it.
[Edit] Removed an and from suggested Maneuver Training.
Hello Tels,
Thankyou for digging into the FAQs. I considered the information you provided and there does appear to be a problem with maneuver training. This is how I understand the problem.
The pathfinder definition for wielding a weapon means that you are only wielding when you are using it to attack. So for a round when you don’t attack, for example taking total defence action you are no longer wielding. Base Attack Bonus is directly used to calculate CMB and CMD, thus applies to all maneuvers. In addition, maneuvers that are applied using a weapon (Disarm, Sunder, and Trip) can also apply any ‘attack bonuses’ from that weapon to the attack roll for the combat maneuver. So a monk that Bull Rushes an opponent is not wielding unarmed strike and thus loses the benefit of Maneuver Training.
So the way to solve this 'wielding' problem is to turn it around.
Maneuver Training (Ex): From 3rd level, the Base Attack Bonus of a monk is equal to his monk level. He loses this benefit while wielding a weapon other than a Special Monk Weapon.
This costs an extra five words but basically allows a monk to use his full BAB for everything other than hitting someone with a non-monk weapon. Spellcasters may multiclass with monk to increase their CMB, CMD and BAB, but I think that is fair enough if they want to take 3 levels of Monk at the expense of 3 caster levels. I’ll use your modification to quivering palm to save three words.
A monk can have a number quivering palms in effect equal to his Wisdom modifier; any additional attempts to use quivering palm above this limit are negated.
It was my intent that Flurry of Blows should allow a monk to make use of two-weapon fighting and the Two-Weapon Fighting feats in a non-standard manner, which is without a weapon in the off hand. And to use any combination of attacks, including all attacks with one weapon. I also want to give Monks the full two weapon fighting feats, so that they qualify for other feats such as Two-Weapon Rend. Further, I later realised that the two-weapon fighting feats need to be provided through flurry of blows, so that archetypes that lose flurry of blows lose the two weapon fighting feats.
So my flurry of blows should do three things:
- [1] Enable two weapon fighting without an off-hand weapon while allowing all attacks, including extra attacks, to be made with one weapon, or two weapons, or a combination of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes. And ensuring that the damage bonus is a flat 1x strength bonus.
- [2] Allow the monk to make use of all the two weapon fighting feats (such as two-weapon rend) in this special way.
- [3] Give the monk the feats Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon fighting as part of the class feature. And not just while they are performing a flurry of blows.
I think my existing text achieves these aims.
So a monk could use the two weapon fighting feats with a non Special Monk Weapon outside of flurry of blows. But they should lose their higher BAB when doing so. And lose the special abilities that flurry of blows gives.
I had previously removed the following text from unarmed strike "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes." This was causing confusion in combining two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. I replaced it with "A monk may substitute an unarmed attack for an off-hand weapon attack, and uses the standard penalties for Two-Weapon Fighting for his attacks." This ability to do full strength damage with off-hand attacks is covered under flurry of blows; this is effectively the same as the double slice feat. Monk archetypes that lose Flurry of Blows, and wish to go down the two-weapon fighting path can do so, but they have to buy the double slice feat.
Total text is now 2398 words. This gives us a few words for flavour and fixes. Thankyou for your help so far.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
The problem with not allowing 1 weapon flurries, is that, as far as I know, the Monk has always been able to do that. I know the Monk was capable of 1 weapon flurries in 3.5, but I can't speak for older editions as I never played them.
Regardless, if you remove that part of making all attacks with 1 weapon, your text and my text say exactly the same thing, mine just does so with less words. If I were to change a few things, to match your idea more closely, it would be:
Starting at 1st level, a Monk gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only when making a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. He can only make a flurry of blows when fighting unarmed or while using a Special Monk Weapon. While making a flurry of blows, the monk adds his full strength bonus to both his primary and off-hand attacks; even when using a two-handed weapons, the monk only uses 1x his strength modifier.
A monk may also substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for any attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
The monk gains the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 8th level, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. At 15th level, the monk gains Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Two-Weapon Fighting can only be done during a full-attack action, so there is no reason not to tie it into flurry of blows. I, honestly, would prefer to keep the 1 weapon flurry as it makes the Monk special in some way, but that's a personal preference.
My text:
- Grants the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, but tied to the Flurry of Blows class feature so archetypes that replace it, aren't granted the feats.
- Removes the confusion of 'no off-hand attacks'.
- Allows full strength bonus.
- Saves word space (200 words vs your 242 words) while clarifying the class feature
If you want to use your text, by all means, do so, I'm just trying to help you save words at this point. I'm not really sure what else is needed at this point, but I'll probably go through your Monk document with a fine-toothed comb and see if I can't shave any more words or look for something that may confuse a first time player. I'll also see if I can't get my friends to look over the document as none of them are as well versed in Monk rules as I am, so they may question something I'm very familiar with.
[Edit] Also, I would prefer to keep the one-weapon flurry option as it makes less editing that needs to be done for the Archetypes, such as Sohei and Zen Archer. They can both flurry with weapons that can't be used in normal flurries (such as the Bow), but, under your rules, they would have to forgo half their attacks because they have to use two-different weapons. If we keep one-weapon flurries, we don't also have to errata those two archetypes specifically, and all the different PFS scenarios.
I don't play PFS myself, but it's always something I think needs to be kept in mind if any changes to the rules are to be mad. Any scenario that contradicts newly issued rules must, themselves, be errata'd which only creates more work for the Paizo crew. If we can 'fix' the Monk without them having to reprint dozens of new scenarios and books, then we exponentially increase the likelihood of the fix coming sometime soon, instead of in the next incarnation of Pathfinder.
Hi Tels, Dabbler,
Thankyou for your help with the Errata. Its has taken me a while, but with your help I have finally spotted the problem with Flurry of Blows. I was reading my intent not what was written. My intent was to create a flurry of blows that allowed any possible combination of attacks, which includes all attacks coming from one-weapon. What was written was in the same style as the original pazio text, and (in hindsight) was clearly ambiguous. I think this is the offending line."The monk must make all attacks using unarmed strike or the Special Monk Weapon in any combination." This makes readers think that they have to iterate between unarmed strikes and the Special Monk Weapon.
I have updated the text to clarify this. Updated words in bold.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, an unarmed monk or a monk wielding a Special Monk Weapon(s) can make a Flurry of Blows as a full-attack action. When doing so the monk gains extra attacks as if they were Two-Weapon Fighting, and may use the Two Weapon Fighting Feat(s) [1] without an off-hand weapon. All attacks, including those granted from the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat(s), must be made with the Special Monk Weapon(s) or unarmed strike. This can be in any combination, including all attacks with the same weapon. The monk applies his full (1x) Strength bonus to damage rolls for all successful attacks made, including primary, off-hand, and two-handed weapon attacks. A monk may also substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for any attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks. A monk with the Flurry of Blows class feature gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 1st level, the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 8th level, and the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 15th level, even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for these feats.
[1] Two-Weapon Fighting feat(s) include: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and any other Two-Weapon feats that that require Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite.
Is this clearer?
Word count is now 2392.
Kind Regards,
Stragen
It is indeed clearer. I haven't had a chance to go through your document yet, nor have any of my friends, but as far as I can tell, your Monk Errata is completed.
The one thing I would do now, is compare your Errata to all the archetypes and see if everything meshes well.
That's what I've been doing, looking at both my monk and Tel's. By and large most archetypes only need minimal adjustment.
Something occurred to me earlier that will need some clarification.
Maneuver Training, what BAB does the Monk use to determine qualification for feats, prestige classes, etc?
I would assume if maneuver training lets the monk use their class level, then that is what is used for feats and such, but I may be wrong.
Does anyone recall what/why there was a ruling about the consideration of letting monks being able to do their unarmed damage on a combat maneuver?
Good stuff, Stragen. Its pretty elegant in the way that it adjusts for the TWF kerfluffle. I really like Catfall. Not sure about the Fast Movement change, though. Is there a reasoning behind it? Movement has been one of the key advantages of the monk for a long time. Why make it Ki dependent?
Good stuff, Stragen. Its pretty elegant in the way that it adjusts for the TWF kerfluffle. I really like Catfall. Not sure about the Fast Movement change, though. Is there a reasoning behind it? Movement has been one of the key advantages of the monk for a long time. Why make it Ki dependent?
Because it's a clashing class ability. The Monk, largely, has two iconic class abilities. To be a highly mobile unit on the battlefield, and to throw out a staggering number of attacks.
However, the Core Monk, can't do both of them. If he wants to be even semi-effective, and get his attacks, he must stand still. If he wants to move at all, then his he gets one attack that is more likely going to miss. What Stragen did, is make Fast Movement worthwhile. If you read the entry closer, and keep an eye on the table you'll notice, the Monk can still move around the battlefield quickly, but he can also spend Ki to move a short distance between his attacks, or to get that little extra movement to make it to his enemy.
Good stuff, Stragen. Its pretty elegant in the way that it adjusts for the TWF kerfluffle. I really like Catfall. Not sure about the Fast Movement change, though. Is there a reasoning behind it? Movement has been one of the key advantages of the monk for a long time. Why make it Ki dependent?Because it's a clashing class ability. The Monk, largely, has two iconic class abilities. To be a highly mobile unit on the battlefield, and to throw out a staggering number of attacks.
However, the Core Monk, can't do both of them. If he wants to be even semi-effective, and get his attacks, he must stand still. If he wants to move at all, then his he gets one attack that is more likely going to miss. What Stragen did, is make Fast Movement worthwhile. If you read the entry closer, and keep an eye on the table you'll notice, the Monk can still move around the battlefield quickly, but he can also spend Ki to move a short distance between his attacks, or to get that little extra movement to make it to his enemy.
Ohhhhhhh. Gotcha.
This looks like a lot of fun! What I found (as sort of a lay man player, mind you) is two fold:
1) This errata feels extremely front-loaded. Almost as if it's a step too far. A Human monk with this gets effectively 5 feats at first level: 1st, Human, Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus: Monk, and Stunning Fist
2) The text "In calculating falling damage he reduces the number of dice rolled by 1d6 per monk level he possesses." reads as though you take your monk level, roll that many d6's and reduce the number of dice rolled for falling damage by that much. Or 4-24 falling dice (40 - 240 feet!). Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, since that doesn't seem the intent. But it's from my first impression.
I can't wait to see what direction this goes and I look forward to it!