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The 5e and various "Martial V Magic" discussion threads have gotten me thinking about what I really don't like about PF/1e-3e style magic and how I would change it--if I could...
I was going to post this in that thread, but figured maybe it's better here? Not sure where it'd belong, really.
You may not like this, you may love Pathfinder's magic exactly as it is, and I'm not knocking it, but I wanted to put this "alternative" out there before I forget it. Good idea, bad idea, whatever, it is/was just an idea...
I'll try to explain it as best I can, but be aware that I've this thought for all of about 10 minutes now, and this is completely off the cuff, so there may well be gaps and holes and a lot of "issues" with it.
So, here's an attempt at a rough (very rough) sketch of what I'd like to do to create a "modular" or "free-form" system.
Goals:
Like 4e, Mage, Shadowrun and other systems, I want casters to be able to cast every round, so that they're always "casters" and always can wield magic to at least some extent if not to a massive effect every round.
I want casters to be able to draw from "raw" magic instead of "set" spells.
I want casters to learn the "basics" and then be able to mix and match them to create desired effects, and then (later?) add "augments" to the basics.
I think "spell power" should ramp up with level, but not to the dizzying effect in 1e-3e.
I want each caster class to have different benefits/abilities relating to how they employ and/or modify magic so that each class feels (more) unique.
I want magic to be seen as a living, mutable thing, not something locked into "reality stamps" that slam their imprint onto the world and then fade from it and memory.
Having said all of that, here are the basic system ideas:
Break magic into component parts
Combat Spells:
1. Select from:
Ball, Blast, Bolt, Burst, Cone, Dart, Ray
--all are untyped (for the moment)
--these would define the range, target (AC/REF/WIL) number of targets, and AoE (if any).
--I don't have anything set yet, but assume that each would be different from the others in the list but roughly correspond to something that already exists.
A "Ball" would be similar to a 3.5e/PF fireball in range and AoE, a "Bolt" would be like a lightning bolt, "Blast" & "Burst" like their 4e counterparts, "Dart" like magic missile and "Ray" like a scorching ray.
2. Select from:
Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Radiant (etc.)
--initial damage types are determined by your class selection, you learn additional by gaining levels/feats/class abilities (whatever)
--damage is a set progression (let's say 1d6/3 levels for now)
--damage is (as ^above^) + (linked attribute bonus) (INT for Wizards, CHA for Sorcerers, etc.)
--damage could be mixed types at the cost of 1d6 (and with a related feat/class ability, etc.)
3. (Augment)* Select from:
Blinded, Bouncing, Burning, Dazed, Deafened (etc.)
--*Augments must be learned (by feat or class ability), and "cost" 2d6 of damage per Augment, and there cannot be more than 1 Augment per spell (unless you take a feat, or have a class ability, etc.)
4. Cast your spell
Utility Spells:
1. Select from:
Burst, Mass, Party, Self, Target, Touch
--as above, (Combat Spells) I don't have the specifics set yet, but assume that each would be different from the others in the list but roughly correspond to something that already exists with the same descriptor for 'touch' etc...
2. Select from:
Alter, Armor, Disguise, Fly, Haste, Protect, Teleport, etc.)
--initial options are determined by your class selection
--duration is a set progression (let's say 1 round/3 levels for now)
--linked attribute bonus (INT for Wizards, CHA for Sorcerers, etc.) has a linked effect--so the "armor" boost would = (INT Bonus) for Wizards, (CHA Bonus) for Sorcerers; "Fly" would add (Linked Bonus) to your move speed, etc. Something like that, all the details aren't fully fleshed out in my mind atm.
3. (Augment)* Select from:
Extend, Quicken, (etc.)
--*Augments must be learned (by feat or class ability), and there cannot be more than 1 Augment per spell (unless you take a feat, or have a class ability, etc.)
4. Cast your spell
-=-=-
Spells per Day would be gone, you get limitless casting from the "components" and "augments" that you know, and you can learn more as you gain levels. Spells like Wish are gone, or maybe banished to something like a Ritual--costly, takes forever to cast, can't be done in combat, etc.
Each time you cast you can "customize" exactly what you want (from what you know) and you could use a total number of "augments" a total number of times per day/per encounter (whichever, haven't decided) equal to your Linked Attribute Bonus.
=-=
Meh, this took way longer to write it out than I thought, but so it goes.
To answer the 5e thread's question of what I'd like to see in 5e, this is close...sort of...in an unfinished way...
Dotting to read later.
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HAve you looked at PFs words of power system? it sounds very similar (except the unlimited times a day part)
Nope, never heard of it, is it a separate book/supplement?
...I may have to find it now...maybe it's just what I was looking for...
EDIT: Nvm, just Googled it and answered my own question:
I don't have the Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Combat books yet, so I'll have to read up on this...
At first glance, WoP is cast more as very "Skyrim"-like than I was thinking, but maybe the underlying mechanics are the same...
Really, I wanted something like Mage's "10 Arcana" as the basis for all magic (replacing or combining with D&D's Force/Fire/etc.)
And then Shadowrun's "Manaball/Manablast/Manabolt/Manadart" or "Powerball/Powerblast/Powerbolt/Powerdart" kind of flexibility.
So, you could mix and match the two elements "off the cuff" or "on the fly" as needed--based on what powersets you've "unlocked" and whether you want Attack/Combat spells or Defensive/Utility spells this round...
Meh, too tired to figure out the WoP blurb, and I may have to borrow someone's book to read the full section. As it is, I'm re-reading the same paragraph 3x and it's not sticking...
Guess my "great idea" for a "new" magic system might be stillborn and already done... Figures, I'm always late to the party... :(
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I think I'd like more of this:
Burst Fire Blast (magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3): This simple wordspell does 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to anything caught in a 10-foot-radius burst. If the wordcaster boosts the target word, this wordspell more closely resembles fireball, dealing damage in a 20-foot-radius burst. The targets receive a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage.
And less of this:
Selected Alignment Shield Enhance Form Grave Bane (cleric 6): This wordspell grants the target a number of bonuses. First, it grants the target a +2 bonus to AC and on saving throws when it is attacked by creatures of one alignment type (chosen by the wordcaster). The wordspell also grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution (chosen by the wordcaster). Finally, the wordspell grants an additional +4 sacred bonus on saving throws made against death spells and death magic effects; the subject cannot gain negative levels while this wordspell is in effect, and the target is automatically stabilized if brought below 0 hit points. All of these effects last for 1 round per level, as that is the duration of the effect word with the shortest duration. Note that alignment shield is only 1st level, and could be replaced with a 2nd-level effect word without changing the overall level of the spell.
I'm really looking for a more limited/streamlined system than the current one.
WoP seems able to replicate nearly anything in the current spell lists, and I was really trying to winnow all that down to something more manageable, not less...
So, WoP is close, but, I think "too much" and I'd like to hone it down to be simpler/quicker... And, like 4e, I'd like to ditch the saving throw mechanic (save for half, etc) and maybe use 4e's save V ongoing effect instead.
At least those are my initial thoughts after a (tired/quick) first glance...
Has anyone played with WoP in their games?
Was it faster or slower and better or worse than the default system?
Reading your Goals one thing comes to mind that fits all of them perfectly.
Ars Magica
They borrowed a number of concepts from it when making 3e but left out the best part. It's awesome magic system. It was cutting edge over 20 years ago and still holds up to and I'd say even beats any system that's come out since.
In it you cast spells based on your understanding of different aspects of magic. When your known spells don't work you can spontaneously make up spells on the fly. They're just lesser powerful then the specific formulas (spells) you've committed to memory. Oh and you have no mana pool or anything of the sort and can cast as much as you want. Just if you want to add some more power to what you cast you can fatigue yourself.
It's done like a skill roll by combining 5 Techniques with 10 Forms (that you have skill points in) against a target difficulty number. Spells having set difficulties to cast. This makes for a fantastically versatile and imaginative magic system. While at the same time keeping casting styles consistent.
It goes.
Create, Destroy, Alter, Control, or Understand
+
Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Animal, Plant, Body, Mind, Perception, or Magic
Some extremely simple examples are.
Heal = Int+Create+Body
Illusion = Int+Create+Perception
Darkness = Int+Destroy+Fire (Fire covers both heat and light effects)
Blindness = Int+Destroy+Body
Confusion = Int+Destroy+Mind
Charm = Int+Alter+Mind
Command = Int+Control+Mind
Turn rain into stones to pelt your enemies to death!!! = Int+Alter+Water/Earth :D
Not sure how you'd apply that to Pathfinder but it's still awesome and fits what you're looking for. ^_^
I was thinking about making casters more like warlocks. Extremely limited spells known, but cast all day.
I saw a system that was skills based/"create your spell" somewhere, and I think I have a copy. I'll look and see if I can find it on my computer... >goes off to rummage in the dusty files at the back of the hard drive<.
Ars Magica magic system could be (with a lot of work) converted to Pathfinder (or d20 in general) because it works on a roll a die (1d10 in this case) + your skill in Technique (Create, Destroy, Command, Transform or Understand) + your skill in Form (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Magic, Animal, Plant, Body, Mind, Senses),
And the fun part? 4th edition of Ars Magic became free download when Atlas Games introduced 5th edition!
Ars Magica magic system could be (with a lot of work) converted to Pathfinder (or d20 in general) because it works on a roll a die (1d10 in this case) + your skill in Technique (Create, Destroy, Command, Transform or Understand) + your skill in Form (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Magic, Animal, Plant, Body, Mind, Senses),
And the fun part? 4th edition of Ars Magic became free download when Atlas Games introduced 5th edition!
But AM 3e has the better artwork! :p
Anywho that would be awesome to see converted. You're right with the ability and skill system being similar it should be doable (D10+Stat (-5 to +5)+Skill (0-10) vs D20+Stat (-5 to +5)+Skill (1-20)). They essentially just doubled the range of the die roll and skills from base ten to base twenty.
Let's see.....
So you'd just have to do is give casters skill points to spend in various Forms&Techniques. Casters would then roll D20+Form (0-20)+Technique (0-20)+ Int mod (-5 to +5)+miscellaneous modifiers for components (verbal, somatic, material), ritual casting bonuses, etc. (+0 to +20). This would give a upper limit of 85. Then all you'd have to do then to use Pathfinder spells is determine what Form/Technique they're based on and give them a difficulty of Spell Level x10 to cast. You'd have no way for a single caster to get off a 9th level spells by himself this way but that's not so bad imo. The hard part would be balancing it. You'd mainly have to figuring out how many skill points characters get to spend on Forms&Techniques.
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I'll have to look through Ars Magica, but it may be too complex for what I'm after. Still, when I can I'll give it a read. In essence, it sounds a lot like Mage, where you create "spells" from your control of arcane forces and your relevant skill set.
For now, until I'm "up" on Ars, I'm really wanting to limit complexity in favor of speed and reduced spell bloat/power creep.
I'd like to keep skill rolls out of it, just have a "mix and match" free-form system, choosing from the things you've already "unlocked" via your class abilities or feats, or whatever.
My idea of the Linked Attribute Bonus is just to make your required stat more fully tied to the spells you cast--just like a Fighter with a 20 STR gets his +5 to damage, a 20 INT Wizard would get +5 to his spells (in either damage or effect--depending on what spell it was)
Essentially, in my original idea, you'd have the "forms" for the spell, and that would determine range/shape/target/save, so that's "locked in" to what you pick.
Then, your "effect" would come from your choice of cold/fire/whatever, and that would make the (untyped) form into a typed form--fireball, iceball, necroball, etc.
Finally, you'd have the possibility of the Augments to boost the spells when need (BBEG) but not every round so you don't outshine the martial characters, yet you're still casting spells every time it's your action--spells that you can vary if enemies cluster or separate.
Any feedback on the damage ramping I've used? Too much, too little?
I think it'd be easier to start with the damaging spells first, then move into the utility spells later since they're inherently more complex...
I'll have to look through Ars Magica, but it may be too complex for what I'm after. Still, when I can I'll give it a read. In essence, it sounds a lot like Mage, where you create "spells" from your control of arcane forces and your relevant skill set.
Actualy it's Mage that looks a lot like Ars Magica :P
Ars Magica was made by people who later started White Wolf and made World Of Darkness games, including Mage. There are even official statements in Hermetic Tradition book that Ars Magica is not the same world as Mage so many things differ - however it is quite clear that Ars Magica had great impact on World Of Darkness (including the fact that all hermetic houses from AM are mentioned in MtA, code of hermes was, with certain alterations adapted by order of hermes in MtA and by clan Tremere in VtM and many other links beyond that).
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I'll have to look through Ars Magica, but it may be too complex for what I'm after. Still, when I can I'll give it a read. In essence, it sounds a lot like Mage, where you create "spells" from your control of arcane forces and your relevant skill set.Actualy it's Mage that looks a lot like Ars Magica :P
Ars Magica was made by people who later started White Wolf and made World Of Darkness games, including Mage. There are even official statements in Hermetic Tradition book that Ars Magica is not the same world as Mage so many things differ - however it is quite clear that Ars Magica had great impact on World Of Darkness (including the fact that all hermetic houses from AM are mentioned in MtA, code of hermes was, with certain alterations adapted by order of hermes in MtA and by clan Tremere in VtM and many other links beyond that).
Interesting. Been a long time since I played Mage, so while its magic system sticks in my head, I don't remember those references to Ars.
Dotting this. Several interesting ideas, but I'm already running late on my lunch break...
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Another thought: You could create a divide between Wizard and Sorcerer by limiting the choices available to them--sort of similar to the "Schools" and "Opposition Schools", etc. but in this sense it'd relate to what Form/Effect/Augments they could each have access to.
In essence, the Sorcerer (and similar classes) would become a "Blaster Caster", with a lot of damage-dealing options to learn, while the Wizard-types would have more of the "Utility" type options but far less direct-damage choices...
Haven't worked it out, just a thought...