I was under the impression that demons, devils, angels, etc., could only be permanently killed (barring True Resurrection, etc) on their home planes, but I can't seem to find this anywhere in the PF rules.
Am I remembering something from 3.5 (or another game system entirely), or did I over look something in the PF rules?
(And, yes, I know that "summoned" creatures must wait 24 hrs before reforming, if "killed" while summoned.)
that's a 3.5 rule for outsiders. You can still kill lesser ones anywhere, but any greater outsider just reforms over a varying length of time back home. Princes and the like can even survive being killed on their home planes, as the plane itself eventually brings them back to life.
==Aelryinth
that's a 3.5 rule for outsiders. You can still kill lesser ones anywhere, but any greater outsider just reforms over a varying length of time back home. Princes and the like can even survive being killed on their home planes, as the plane itself eventually brings them back to life.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the quick responses. Ael, is that a PF rule? If so, could you point me to it?
The difference is how the outsiders arrive. Summoning brings the essence of the outsider which is merely banished for a time when the material form is killed. It also mean that the outsider in question can't use it's own summoning abilities.
A Calling spell on the other hand such as Planar Ally, Gate etc. brings the actual outsider to the Material Plane. In that case any summoning abilities it might have ARE available but any death suffered is the real deal.
As I noted in the OP, I understand the difference between calling and summoning, inc. the effects associated with them.
What I'm trying to find is whether there are rules (and if so, where they are) about "slain" outsiders reforming after being killed and how long it takes. Also, which ones those rules apply to.
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The difference is how the outsiders arrive. Summoning brings the essence of the outsider which is merely banished for a time when the material form is killed. It also mean that the outsider in question can't use it's own summoning abilities.
A Calling spell on the other hand such as Planar Ally, Gate etc. brings the actual outsider to the Material Plane. In that case any summoning abilities it might have ARE available but any death suffered is the real deal.
As I noted in the OP, I understand the difference between calling and summoning, inc. the effects associated with them.
What I'm trying to find is whether there are rules (and if so, where they are) about "slain" outsiders reforming after being killed and how long it takes. Also, which ones those rules apply to.
I don't think there are any solid rules anywhere about it except for the rare case-by-case basis for specific creatures. The last place I remember thinking I saw anything of the sort was in Planescape, and I could be remembering wrong.
I just built my own rules and did each creature on a case-by-case basis, ignoring a number of "outsider facts" that got standardized across all planar creatures in the shift to 3rd Edition. Feels more mythological that way, IMO. It probably isn't what you're looking for though. It's stuff like: Dretches reform by tearing free from the very "earth" of the Abyss, Glabrezus either reform instantly if summoned or otherwise have to piece themselves back together over the course of five centuries from the stuff of the Abyss if they have enough willpower not to simply be "demoted" to a lower form of demon, Astral Devas are reborn from celestial "seeds", Lillends still have the Silent Hour, etc.
Thanks, Mikaze. I was planning on using the "time to re-form" as a plot point and wanted to make sure I wasn't ignoring any actual rules/guidelines already in place.
It has varied wildly by edition and source. 3e came out and (depending on your perspective) simplified/dumbed down the multiplicity of rules on the subject and had summoned ones suffer no ill from a death, reappearing on their native plane, while those called were dead dead. I don't recall if it addressed the body or lack of one left behind in such a case.
2e's Faces of Evil had some really cool specific case mentions of what happened when specific fiends died and on what plane they died on. For instance dergholoths could only be killed permanently outside of the three planes of conflict. They were used so often for war on those planes, their substance had been tailored to reform almost immediately upon death so as to avoid the mass death of those squad level leaders for the loths' mezzoloth armies (who themselves when they died were literally recycled immediately, with a new mezzoloth forming at the base of Khin-Oin or the Tower Arcane instantly).
I personally prefer to handle things on a case by case basis, with the broad rule of greater fiends are harder to kill and will reform on their native plane in short order, and even if killed there may by sheer force of will draw their scattered essence back together.
I think Mikaze is right here. No hard rules for PF yet, but I've been using 3.5 sources as a guideline. Devils are sent back to Hell for 100 years, demons revert to chaotic energy used to spawn more demons, ect... Bottom line, if you kill an outsider on the material plane, it's rarely gone for good.
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Even greater fiends will not reform "in short order," but they will reform.
Pit fiends have the devil shaping ability, which allows them to make greater devils out of lemures.