I'm using Secrets of Pact Magic, and one of my players has the 'Unhinge the Spirit' ability. In short, it lets him separate out a beings 'life force' from its body (temporarily). My thought is that this doesn't work on outsiders. Since outsiders can't have souls put back into their body, why should their souls be vulnerable to removal?
So since Magic Jar talks about souls and life force as more or less synonymous, does Magic Jar work on outsiders? Can an outsider use it to possess someone else, leaving their inert body somewhere? Can someone else use Magic Jar on an outsider, trapping the outsider's soul in a jar?
Nobody has thoughts?
I probably should have posted this over in the Rules forum.
I'm using Secrets of Pact Magic, and one of my players has the 'Unhinge the Spirit' ability. In short, it lets him separate out a beings 'life force' from its body (temporarily). My thought is that this doesn't work on outsiders. Since outsiders can't have souls put back into their body, why should their souls be vulnerable to removal?
So since Magic Jar talks about souls and life force as more or less synonymous, does Magic Jar work on outsiders? Can an outsider use it to possess someone else, leaving their inert body somewhere? Can someone else use Magic Jar on an outsider, trapping the outsider's soul in a jar?
While I agree that soul and life force are often confused (and sometimes used as synonymous) in D&D, I'd argue that they are not the same thing.
As for the outsider soul and body thing, it has been long understood that the body of an outsider was the manifestation of its soul. So it wasn't so much that the outsider had no soul to call back, but that it had no "body" to come back to. Outsiders would go back to their home plane and take X years to re-form etc...
Now this has been kind of thrown out of the window since 3rd edition where outsiders have been (easily) available to players, and the ever-confounding native sub-type.
As far as your issues goes, I'd say that the ability you are describing should work on outsiders as well, unless you can think of some similar situations that specifically states that outsiders are immune to (or unaffected by).
None spring to my mind at the moment, but I admit that this is not my field of expertise...
'findel
I think the question that needs to be asked with souls and bodies is what exactly is the body made out of? Physical meat? Congealed ectoplasm? What?
If you chop off a tiefling's tail, you probably have a bloody severed tail. Native outsider or not, the tiefling has a regular physical body and you can unhinge the soul from it, magic jar it and so forth.
A devil? If you chop off its tail, the tail probably dissolves into smoke or something. Its body is just a manifestation of its eeeevil soul. But unhinging it from its ectoplasm might send that back to Hell, so wouldn't be a useless power.
Then look at undead. You probably can't magic jar incorporeal undead. But corporeal undead? There's no reason you couldn't take a vampire's soul out and take over his dead body for a while.
Well my thoughts are that this entry (from the SRD):
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature; its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Would indicate that the soul and body cannot be separated. The rule itself only talks about putting the soul back into the body, but wouldn't that also extend to removing the soul in the first place? Native outsiders (which really should have been another type, but that is different discussion) are of course treated like a normal living creature.
Does anyone have examples of demons or devils using Magic Jar in an adventure or source book?
A devil? If you chop off its tail, the tail probably dissolves into smoke or something. Its body is just a manifestation of its eeeevil soul. But unhinging it from its ectoplasm might send that back to Hell, so wouldn't be a useless power.
What if the Devil is currently in Hell?
My thought was to give true outsiders total immunity, but maybe just making them immune on their home plane is enough. When they are outside their plane it could work much like a banishment.
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Does anyone have examples of demons or devils using Magic Jar in an adventure or source book?
Shadow demons can use magic jar as a spell-like ability.
And demonic possession is all over the place, so I'd say that demons/devils/all outsiders can use (and be used by) magic jar. They can in PFRPG and in Golarion, in any case.
By the strict reading of the rules, there's a thematic disconnect with true outsiders (not native outsiders) using magic jar (or having it used on them). I generally rationalize it by saying that when they use it, they insinuate a bit of their own essence into the target, but not their entire selves since they don't have body/soul duality like mortals and native outsiders have. When having magic jar used on them, I generally assume that their essence isn't displaced or fragmented, but that the controlling presence of the spellcaster's soul acts to suppress their control of themselves much like a dominate spell.
I've had fiends go crazy with magic jar in my campaigns, and a few instances of PCs using the same spell on various true outsiders, and I've usually seen no reason to stop the fun.
Ok, you've convinced me. Magic Jar for everyone!