Trial of the Beast - Paladin dilemma (spoilers - DMs only)

Hi,

I'm DMing my first AP and the party has reached Lepidstadt and has met Judge Daramid...

...can anyone give me any pointers on how I could possibly convince my Paladin PC that this is still the good and right path despite the dilemma he faces?

As I stated I'm still new to DMing and would love the input of some veterans as I don't necessarily understand all the rules etc. ;)

Cheers,

Paul

Have her acquiesce and then be open about her involvement.

Also, tell the Paladin player to cool his jets. Being super-strict will derail more elements later in the AP.

The person requesting the investigation is not the one he should be concerned with. Who he should be concerned with is the Beast. Is he comfortable in his alignment knowingly allowing a possibly innocent victim to be burned alive?

To choose to allow an innocent to die a horrible and wrongful death when you have been given an opportunity to do something about it by a person of authority does not strike me as a lawful, and certainly not a good action.

While deceiving someone can be viewed as a bad thing, just like nearly every action, it must be taken in context. Would he be more comfortable with her being removed from the trial and replaced with someone likely predisposed toward conviction of someone who ultimately is innocent?

I think he needs to look at the real situation and not focus on the superficial aspects. An innocent creature's life is at stake. If he turns his back on that creature, I would be quite sure his good deity would strip him of all paladin abilities.

Have her acquiesce and then be open about her involvement.

Also, tell the Paladin player to cool his jets. Being super-strict will derail more elements later in the AP.

He could get her to acquiesce and be forced down from judgement. After the trial have the three judges cast their votes, and the creature is released 2-1, with the 1 voting for conviction being the one that replaced the judge. That should help him see just how tenuous the situation was.

Personally I would have her ask the paladin if he is really comfortable allowing an innocent to be burned to death.

The person requesting the investigation is not the one he should be concerned with. Who he should be concerned with is the Beast. Is he comfortable in his alignment knowingly allowing a possibly innocent victim to be burned alive?

To choose to allow an innocent to die a horrible and wrongful death when you have been given an opportunity to do something about it by a person of authority does not strike me as a lawful, and certainly not a good action.

While deceiving someone can be viewed as a bad thing, just like nearly every action, it must be taken in context. Would he be more comfortable with her being removed from the trial and replaced with someone likely predisposed toward conviction of someone who ultimately is innocent?

I think he needs to look at the real situation and not focus on the superficial aspects. An innocent creature's life is at stake. If he turns his back on that creature, I would be quite sure his good deity would strip him of all paladin abilities.

Thank you, I think you've just about given me enough to put forward the argument I was looking for; I had tried the 'innocent creature's life at stake' angle but he felt that he couldnt go along with a deception - your take on this might just be enough for me to work him around as I would rather he take part than not - and I will roleplay that he stands by and watches his party investigate if need be

Make that Paladin lose his powers immediately. Hardliner behaviour requires hardliner response.

I'm actually serious. Paladin loses all powers. Not for long, and and he'll get them back on his own, without the need for atonement or anything. Just a friendly "Don't play leapfrog with a unicorn" reminder from his deity.

The Paladin doesn't have to deceive anyone. He is asked to keep his employer a secret, and for good reason. He is not asked to break any laws - in fact, he's supposed to see justice done, and without his involvement it's quite likely that injustice will instead be done.

And even if there was something actually fishy going on, that would have been the lesser of two evils. I'm quite sure it's a lot more important to see an innocent go free than to go all old school (in a very bad way) on the paladin's code of conduct.

Make that Paladin lose his powers immediately. Hardliner behaviour requires hardliner response.

I'm actually serious. Paladin loses all powers. Not for long, and and he'll get them back on his own, without the need for atonement or anything. Just a friendly "Don't play leapfrog with a unicorn" reminder from his deity.

The Paladin doesn't have to deceive anyone. He is asked to keep his employer a secret, and for good reason. He is not asked to break any laws - in fact, he's supposed to see justice done, and without his involvement it's quite likely that injustice will instead be done.

And even if there was something actually fishy going on, that would have been the lesser of two evils. I'm quite sure it's a lot more important to see an innocent go free than to go all old school (in a very bad way) on the paladin's code of conduct.

That's actually even better, a bit of divine intervention would be something superb in this gothic-themed AP and would let my players know i won't stand for silly indecision in the face of the bigger picture.

It's bad enough one of my PCs would happily let the beast burn purely because its a flesh golem, and is investigating it purely for the money, than to also have a paladin stand by and watch it die a potential innocent (as he knows not its guilt or innocence at this point)

Brilliant, thank you. (I continue to learn the role of the DM - this is only my 3rd DMed module having only previously ran The Haunting of Harrowstone and The Godsmouth Heresy; I'm loving the RP elements and the improv I get to do so far!)

Cheers,

Paul

Glad you're enjoying the RP elements Tytho, and good on you for tackling this tricky AP so early in your GM career.

Thanks everyone also for the spot on advice given - defending the beast, which after all is from the Bestiary - will be a tricky one for some players.

Come back and tell us how it went at the end of the adventure will you please?

Rich

Glad you're enjoying the RP elements Tytho, and good on you for tackling this tricky AP so early in your GM career.

I'm finding it absorbing and incredible fun to tell the story and the RP elements have always been what I enjoyed most when playing RP so I'm very pleased to be able to deliver one so rich in story to my players, rather than have them hack down mob#1 followed by mob#2 ad nauseum.

Well back to the 'tale of the paladin's dilemma', even though I made the paladin have a quick chat with his deity (in a scene quite blatently stolen from the matrix as neo chatted with the oracle) he seemed to be steadfast in his belief that he wouldn't assist the Judge but would speak with the beast and upon speaking with him, decided based upon that conversation to aid the investigation. I even tried to add a real world reminder of his deities words as a small inscription appeared on the blade of his glaive after his encounter 'The strictest law often causes the most serious wrong' so maybe I did persuade him to do the right thing but in the way he was most comfortable with.

Sadly, upon the first investigation in the boneyard of morast the impetuous bard with dragon blood running through her veins openly dug up a coffin to examine the contents against the paladins protestations; while the remaining party members continued their exploration of the boneyard the paladin returned to Leipdstadt alone. In the morning she rode off stating to the barkeep on her departure that if they asked 'she no longer wished to be assosciated with members of the party she had been attached to' leaving the party to their investigation. An NPC for me to play with later in the AP perhaps?

They will soon be joined by a well disguised halfling summoner...

As as aside, my favourite humorous moment so far in the AP has been the party desperately trying to work out which spell 'beeswax' was a component of (literally poring over their core rulebooks for 10-15 minutes) while investigating the university crime scene as they could smell it in the air of the auditorium, only for the cleaner to walk up and attempt to polish the wood...and even then it took them the whole conversation and me dropping hints about 'polishing the wood', 'oh I've got to polish it ALL again soon' for the penny to drop.

Thanks for all the advice again anyway!

Paul aka Tytho