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One of the things that has struck me in my recent con experiences with PFS (PaizoCon & Origins) is the frantic scurrying many GMs are doing to provide players with interesting table experiences by providing high quality battlemaps. We all saw the projector rig at PaizoCon. Kyle (Baird) and several other GMs (Shane?) spent major dollars to upsize, print and laminate maps from scenarios. I know Doug (Doug Doug - the original five star GM) and Kyle have spent a lot of time with 1" grid paper and handfuls of markers in order to grab players' attention and let them know that their enjoyment of the game is important. My own wife has recently brought up the uncomfortable topic of cutting back on Sharpie purchases for the sake of the kids' college funds. This occurred after I showed an unhealthy enthusiasm for the new, limited edition, sand colored marker they released in their "Carribean Colors" line this summer (WHOO HOO - several purchased in both regular AND fine point).
With this said, it seems to me that there is an unmet market need for printable mini scale (1"=5') maps for use with PFS scenarios. I would propose that Paizo should make PDFs of these maps available for purchase as an optional supplement to the scenarios. Each page could include a 6x8 section of the map which could be trimmed and joined to the other sections to make the complete map.
While I am no business genius or copyright attorney, and I am sure there are issues I could not possibly know about, here are my supporting arguements:
1) Paizo (presumably) already owns the rights to the maps. If this is not completely true, portions of the additional sales could be directed to the designer/cartographer. What is left should be mostly profit (less some initial formatting and website sales costs).
2) Based on my experience (described above), there is a market for this product.
3) Having easy to print maps might encourage more people to play/GM. I takes money and/or time to create decent maps. Personally, I found it easier to reenter gaming when I found the Ptolus campaign and it's accompanying Skeleton Key map packs.
4) Color laser printers are going for $249 these days. Two years ago, printing out some huge map on an inkjet was not practical (I know - I tried it). Now, it is relatively cheap.
5) Players love good maps. They talk about it at game days and the cons. They ooh and aah at tables with good maps, they complain about tables with really bad maps. Players who have a good time are more likely buy rulebooks and supplements. GMs like players who are having fun. GMs who are having fun are likely to buy more stuff too.
6) If map folios work for the adventure paths, then couldn't a similar product also work for PFS?
7) The integration of flipmaps and map packs with the scenarios is brilliant. Keep doing that. Just release supplemental map PDFs with scenarios which do not utilize these other products.
8) Some GMs (many who might particularly vocal) might complain "that back in my day we didn't even have dry erase markers. We used M&Ms and graph paper. In the dark. And we were GRATEFUL for them!". However, I believe that many other will download PDFs, print them, and bring them to their FLGS on PFS game day.
I would not be surprised if there are lots of reasons why Paizo hasn't done this already. Just thought I would throw it out to see what you all thought.
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Emusocprof
I'm not sure that the market is big enough for a professional cartographer.
But looking at the maps I've seen from DougDoug and others - it would be a SHAME not sharing them more widely.
So maybe the solution is more in the direction of the Apple model with the app store - make a Map store.
1) Make it easy for people like DougDoug to post their map as a PDF.
2) Give them a cut from any revenue like apple
2b) If GM's don't want the cut - fine as well. Some might just not want to profit from PFS - so ensure there is an option there as well
3) Ensure the maps are listed somewhere together with the scenarios
4) Ensure that the map author name is prominently displayed
I could see this as a great win-win-win for all parties - people drawing the maps, Paizo and the PFS and the GMs.
In principle this should be already possible for an indicidual to 'form a company', advertise your maps, sell them as pdf. But as this would be a minefield who owns what (yes - Paizo should own the rights to the maps in the scenario which could discourag others to draw enhanced maps)- it would be great if Paizo works something out around the lines above that keeps red tape to a minimum and fun for gamers and GMs at a maximum.
Thod
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I'll go one set forward with this and suggest using Poster Razor. I just up the size of the pics from the pdf to give me the 1 inch squares and then print out the battlemat on 8 1/2" x 11 paper. Then use sissors to cut the parts and use a glue stick to fit them together in one big map. If I know that I'll use the map again, I cover it in contact paper.
It's not as nice as a flip mat, but it's pretty darn good and with contact paper I can use dry erase markers. I'm going to make my maps like this for GenCon.
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I use FlipMaps when available, or PosterRazor when I have time. PosterRazor takes some getting familiar with. some time to adjust maps to the right scale, and the result can often be blurred and pixellated, but nonetheless functions well as a game map and the preparation impresses players used to suffering badly drawn maps. Over the course of preparing for several conventions I now have maps from most scenarios I've run PosterRazored onto cardstock. Highly recommended.
This topic was done to death before - basically, having battlemat sized maps would require the cartographer to make two maps (one for the print, one for the mat). Cartographers ain't cheap, their time is limited and several other factors result in this not being possible at the moment.
This.
I LOVE seeing what my GMs come up with at shows (and many of you wowed me beyond belief at Paizo Con) but this idea of providing PDFs of these maps is currently too time-consuming, too expensive, and simply not feasible.
Trust me, though: should I ever get even a HINT that this has become feasible, I'll be in Lisa's office begging for just such a product line.
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Hi all -
What about setting up a community collective of the bigger Rasterized maps from the PFS Scenarios?
I've purchased most of the flip-mats (even the frickin' prison I swore I'd never buy because of the blank backside - only one worse is the blue water from the ship, like my players can't imagine blue water), the Map Packs (the ships were close for Perils of Pirate Pact), and other options.
For the few maps that I couldn't use the Dragon Lair or Darklands I've had to draw them out early (and red and brown can stain regular chessex battlemats).
Having the rasterized PDF map would be much more preferable. With permission (and a collective location to house them), I'm sure it could be done by the fans. Yes, players might be able to get their hands on the maps - but they can purchase the PDF of the module already - so it's still the same on-your-honor system.
I'm somewhat familiar with Adobe Illustrator, but not enough. Plus I'm busy with adding in PFS legal play stuff into HeroLab, so other than the occasional opportunity I would be hard pressed to help, but I'd try. Esp. for cons this would be great - and as the PF coordinator for NeonCon something that I'd see about getting printed for the GM's.
Be Well. Be Well Enlarged.
Theocrat Issak
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This topic was done to death before - basically, having battlemat sized maps would require the cartographer to make two maps (one for the print, one for the mat). Cartographers ain't cheap, their time is limited and several other factors result in this not being possible at the moment.This.
I LOVE seeing what my GMs come up with at shows (and many of you wowed me beyond belief at Paizo Con) but this idea of providing PDFs of these maps is currently too time-consuming, too expensive, and simply not feasible.
Trust me, though: should I ever get even a HINT that this has become feasible, I'll be in Lisa's office begging for just such a product line.
Could we just purchase the raw image file that gets used for the scenario pdf?
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What most people don't realize, is in Adobe Reader, you can click the Map, Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V into your favorite image editor. From there, you just have to blow it up to 1" Squares and Viola.
I wouldn't make that assumption. I already do that, that's how I was able to print out a 24" x 36" map of the Sothis Lodge. What I'd like to see is access to the raw file that was used (assuming it's better resolution than what's in the pdf layout)
I believe an equivalent approach is to offer a clear battle mat (plexiglass, acrylic, or equivalnet roll up material) with 1 inch grid that accepts dry erase or permanent marker (wet erase is a pain), and therefore you don't have to be as finicky with the scale. As long as the PDF is available, provide basic instructions for various format printers and paper size to get the desired results, and place under the battle mat.
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I am not too familiar with Razor Poster... Is that a software application? Or just a procedure? I've used Acrobat to copy map images and then enlarge them in Gimp for the proper scaling before. Does Poster Razor allow this to be done without some of the hassle?
This program is easy peasie. If you have the picture for the size that you want already, enter the picture accept the defaults and and it will create a PDF that has all the parts that can be re-assembled.it allows for some overlap so you can guide the pieces together easy.
I just use a glue stick to put them to gether. If i need to keep the map, I cover it in clear contact paper. Then i can use dry erase markers on it too.
Chief Technical Officer
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What most people don't realize, is in Adobe Reader, you can click the Map, Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V into your favorite image editor. From there, you just have to blow it up to 1" Squares and Viola.I wouldn't make that assumption. I already do that, that's how I was able to print out a 24" x 36" map of the Sothis Lodge. What I'd like to see is access to the raw file that was used (assuming it's better resolution than what's in the pdf layout)
The "original" maps are not that much better than what you find in the PDF. (They generally haven't been compressed with a lossy algorithm, so they're slightly less noisy, but they're usually about the same size, within a few percent.)
That's the whole point of why we can't "just do it"—when we assign a cartographer a map, he's told that it'll be half-page or full-page or whatever, and he works to that size. If he had to do every map to 1"=5' scale, it would take him a lot more time—and that time would cost us a lot more money. It would also mean that our few good, reliable cartographers wouldn't be able to do as many maps in the same time, and that would mean we'd have to find more cartographers just to execute the same number of maps we need each month... and that would probably mean that we'd have to lower our standards for maps. So... not anytime soon.
That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
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That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
Vic,
Not to be a pain in the ass, but I think your above statement is not accurate -- unless you are now restating it or altering it.
I think if you look a little more closely at the Community Use Policy, at least as presently stated, adventure maps created by the community cannot look "substantially similar" to those published in the product lines.
While a battlmap could be redone with new textures in, say, Dundjini or Maptools that is simply based on the layout of an exsiting product without infringing copyright (for the good reason that there is no copyright in an idea of an imaginary place - only in an expression of an image), I would assume a rescale of the same image would not meet the Communiy Use Policy provisions regarding maps, which reads:
You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.
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I am not too familiar with Razor Poster... Is that a software application? Or just a procedure? I've used Acrobat to copy map images and then enlarge them in Gimp for the proper scaling before. Does Poster Razor allow this to be done without some of the hassle?This program is easy peasie. If you have the picture for the size that you want already, enter the picture accept the defaults and and it will create a PDF that has all the parts that can be re-assembled.it allows for some overlap so you can guide the pieces together easy.
I just use a glue stick to put them to gether. If i need to keep the map, I cover it in clear contact paper. Then i can use dry erase markers on it too.
Thanks for the info! I always prefer to liven my games up with a battlemap if possible. I'll definitely check out the program.
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You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.
Vic
I have to agree with Steel_Wind. I understand why such a phrase is in the community use licence. But you probably understand why this currently would discourage someone from posting his own interpretations. I even looked up the license for this purpose and that was the end of it for me to persue making any maps of the future available to others.
For PFS play it needs to follow the layout of the original map - othervice there is an issue to use such a map in OP. At the same time - this gets you pretty close to what is explicitly forbidden.
It would help if there would be a clarification that for PFS and to foster PFS it is fine. If this would cause legal issues to post in a blog, then it would be appreciated if you could just could let us know as well. I could see problems for other areas if you water this down in a blog post and others will apply it outside PFS games.
In my view there would be a win/win situation if we could find a common sense solution that ensures Paizo rights are fine but also protects users who post in good faith a pdf map.
Thod
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Chief Technical Officer
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You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.Vic
I have to agree with Steel_Wind. I understand why such a phrase is in the community use licence. But you probably understand why this currently would discourage someone from posting his own interpretations. I even looked up the license for this purpose and that was the end of it for me to persue making any maps of the future available to others.
For PFS play it needs to follow the layout of the original map - othervice there is an issue to use such a map in OP. At the same time - this gets you pretty close to what is explicitly forbidden.
It would help if there would be a clarification that for PFS and to foster PFS it is fine. If this would cause legal issues to post in a blog, then it would be appreciated if you could just could let us know as well. I could see problems for other areas if you water this down in a blog post and others will apply it outside PFS games.
In my view there would be a win/win situation if we could find a common sense solution that ensures Paizo rights are fine but also protects users who post in good faith a pdf map.
Thod
The exact text from the Community Use Policy says:
...you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.
The bits that are probably confusing people are the definitions of "your own interpretations" and "substantially similar." Keep in mind that this sentence applies to both artwork and maps, and the goal is to encompass our intent equally for both cases.
Let's apply it to artwork for a second, because that might be a more clear case as far as communicating our intent. Say you want to do a drawing of Seoni. Obviously, you have to be able to do something *somewhat* similar, in that she'll be a slender human female of particular proportions, and likely wearing a familiar red dress—if you couldn't do that, it wouldn't be Seoni! On the other hand, we don't want you to just trace over Wayne Reynolds' drawing and call it good—that would be what we mean by "substantially similar."
Now, let's take maps. Say you want to do a map of Sandpoint. Obviously, Sandpoint has an established geography, and if you couldn't replicate that, it wouldn't be a map of Sandpoint. But we also don't want you to just replicate Rob Lazzaretti's drawing and call it good.
We explain a bit more in the CUP FAQ:
Does this mean I can make miniatures-scaled battle maps of locations in your adventures?Yes, so long as you're creating new cartography, not using our existing maps, and you don't charge anything for accessing it, and you follow all the other rules.
Ultimately, what we mean is that, under the CUP, you can make your own cartography to represent our locations, but you can't just blow up or otherwise modify our existing cartography—you have to make your own. It can be as "geographically accurate" as you like, so long as it's clearly your own interpretation, and not just a copy of ours.
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That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
Per the CUP, this map would be illegal, would it not? If it is, it's a shame.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Per the CUP, this map would be illegal, would it not? If it is, it's a shame.That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
I'm not familiar enough with all of our maps to recognize that. If you explain what you've done, though, I can tell you whether it's allowed.
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Per the CUP, this map would be illegal, would it not? If it is, it's a shame.That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
I am more curios what that guy is doing with a Beta Rulebook on Photo 15...;)
It's a map of from a PFS scenario blown up about 250%, printed, and laminated.
That would be legal for personal use, but not for distribution, free or for a fee.
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Vic
Thanks for your time and the explanations. My interpretation was a lot more restricted as I didn't understand it in the way you explained. I've some ideas how to make a few maps and it wouldn't be based on the PFS maps (apart of course the layout).
I just hope to find the time and that over time we will be able to organise some community sharing. That should be in the best interest of PFS GMs, Paizo as well as players.
Thod
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Ultimately, what we mean is that, under the CUP, you can make your own cartography to represent our locations, but you can't just blow up or otherwise modify our existing cartography—you have to make your own. It can be as "geographically accurate" as you like, so long as it's clearly your own interpretation, and not just a copy of ours
Hi Vic, as I do a lot of stuff that is possibly borderline on this (and post it all over these forums ;)
How would you interpret doing a copy paste from a pdf of a map. Using that as a template layer to outline the walls, road etc etc, and then creating a map using that sketch as a basis? i.e. all new textures, surrounding elements etc etc.
This is an example. although not quite finished as the group passed through before I needed to complete it....
That photobucket account has pretty much everything I've made, from line drawings for hook mountain, that from pure descriptions by someone else, through a reworking of the glassworks basement, to the glassworks you see there...
It would be nice to know that's it's all legal, and if not, what to pull :D
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Per the CUP, this map would be illegal, would it not? If it is, it's a shame.That said, our Community Use Policy allows noncommercial users to create and freely distribute their own maps of our adventure locations.
You are misreading the CUP. The CUP only applies if you are publishing or redistributing paizo's works. Printing something out (really anything) and using it in a roleplaying session is legal regardless and you don't need to go through the CUP at all.
Now if you were to print those and give them to a bunch of friends or put it on your BLOG then it fall under the CUP.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Ultimately, what we mean is that, under the CUP, you can make your own cartography to represent our locations, but you can't just blow up or otherwise modify our existing cartography—you have to make your own. It can be as "geographically accurate" as you like, so long as it's clearly your own interpretation, and not just a copy of oursHi Vic, as I do a lot of stuff that is possibly borderline on this (and post it all over these forums ;)
How would you interpret doing a copy paste from a pdf of a map. Using that as a template layer to outline the walls, road etc etc, and then creating a map using that sketch as a basis? i.e. all new textures, surrounding elements etc etc.
If you're saying you basically use our map as a guide layer, "overdraw" it with your own elements, and then essentially remove our map from the file, that's fine!
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Could a Regional Coordinator distribute copies for use at a Con?Yep.It's a map of from a PFS scenario blown up about 250%, printed, and laminated.That would be legal for personal use, but not for distribution, free or for a fee.
Kyle
I think the better idea is to get together, start making some maps and share them. My contributions are likely around the TileSystem program for Dwarevnforge. It allows me to make 2d maps of Dwarvenforge layouts. I already do have a map for the upper parts of Voices in the Void. Just need to blow it up, refine it and add the lower parts.
Having a map in real size would help me to lay out the pieces during play - at the same time players without Dwarvenforge could use the printout on it's own.
I guess there are others out there who already have some maps that are 90% ready to go. Let's start with these and see how far we get.
We would need a good place from where to link to the maps. Guess one of the current fan projects is a good place for that.
I will post here once I have something ready. Vic should have given enough explanation about what is fine. So let's start.
Thod
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Chief Technical Officer
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Could a Regional Coordinator distribute copies for use at a Con?Yep.It's a map of from a PFS scenario blown up about 250%, printed, and laminated.That would be legal for personal use, but not for distribution, free or for a fee.
Nope. One of the main reasons (but not the only reason) is that, because our artists design their work to be seen at a certain size, presenting it at a different size than intended gives an inaccurate impression of the actual quality of their work, and of Paizo's quality controls. Among other things, we don't want people seeing one of our maps that been blown up and pixelated, and thinking "Paizo sure is turning out some crappy-looking maps these days!"