Dark Ages Vampire - Bloodlines (Inactive)

Game Master Dennis Harry

Sorry, I am rather distracted this weekend. I am working a con.

This ok. Vitaliano is done for the evening and everyone else should be relatively soon as well.

Yay XPs!

Thanks for the 5.

Been tracking XP each time you have it and have 21 XP. On my character sheet.

Also, was Alessandro granted extra as he joined later?

Can we have guidelines for exceptional RP (something that...). Not begrudging anyone, but hate leaving XP on the table.

Can we have guidelines for exceptional RP (something that...). Not begrudging anyone, but hate leaving XP on the table.

Normally I grant that on an erratic basis. If you have more than I listed it was likely PM'd to you.

Not sure I can create a specific guideline for this but I will consider it.

5 XP. : )

I have begun updating the Campaign Info tab.

Wow, that's really useful info. Amazing resource. Great stuff ST Shadow.

Yes I have been running games for 27 years and I am still astounded by the number of NPC'S I created for this thread.

Is that all the NPCs....in the campaign info tab?

Yep every one mentioned by name some were of course not actually met imln perrson.

I think that was a most reasonable argument....

Agreed. He certainly bought it :-)

I bet you just can't wait to see Sergei Volkov again....

I was sure you were going to make me roll dice....

note to self put points into bluff...I'm going to need it....

Well, you know them and you are standing inside a Holy Site. Plus you pretty much proved yourself to him battling Zombies on one leg.

I guess that's always a bonus.....a nice way of saying he trusts me.

Tks for the XP DM ...

To make my life easier, a number of Rules from V20 will be posted in the Campaign Information Tab.

Those of you who are currently embraced, over Downtime we will discuss Roads :-)

The rest of you, not much longer after that... :-)

I reviewed the changes from Modern to Dark Ages V20 with respect to Abilities. First let's review Talents.

Talents - Officially Added - Legedermain.
Officially Removed - Hobby Skill.
Bloodlines had a House Rule - Carousing.

Ruling - I will be changing nothing. Legedermain already exists in the form of the Skill Larceny and I like the Carousing Talent the way it currently functions.

Carousing:

Carousing is essentially the Talent of being able to talk to anyone anywhere like a social butterfly. With 4+ dots your specialty can be with particular groups of people or social situations. People can provide a lot of information to those who know the language This ability allows you to blend in unobtrusively with the local scene, pick up gossip, and understand slang.

If you are not familiar with a social scene, an Etiquette roll may be necessary to blend in (ST discretion).

To pick up information, you influence others to relax and have fun. This might include showing a potential ally a good time, loosening an
informant’s tongue, or making instant drinking buddies who come to your aid when a brawl starts. The normal difficulty for this roll is 6, though it might be higher in the case of large or surly groups.

On a botch, your character comes off as an obnoxious boor or people begin to question why your character hasn’t touched her own food and drink.

Edit: Note that if you have Contacts related to a certain group with which you are trying to gather information, your Contact dice pool may be added to the roll.

Talents - Hobby Skill:

This Talent encompasses the following "secondary talents" from the Vampire Players Guide Second Edition:
Artistic Expression,
Diplomacy,
Interrogation,
Intrigue,
Masquerade (Silence of Blood - Pretending to be alive),
Negotiation,
Panhandling,
Poetic Expression,
Public Speaking,
Scan,
Scrounging,
Search,
Seduction,
Sense Deception,
Style,
Torture.

As these are NOT primary Abilities, I cannot test against them directly, however, having dots in them may increase dice pools on other tests.

Next let's review Skills.

Talents - Officially Added - Commerce.
Officially Removed - Professional Skill.
Bloodlines had a House Rule - None.

Ruling - I will be changing nothing here though I will rename the Knowledge Finance to Commerce & Finance.

Skills - Professional Skill:

This Skill encompasses the following "secondary talents" from the Vampire Players Guide Second Edition:

Animal Training,
Body Craft (Essential Vicissitude Skill)
Camouflage,
Dancing,
Disguise,
Escape Artist,
Falconry,
Forgery,
Fortune Telling,
Gambling,
Game Playing,
Hunting (Animals not Humans),
Mimicry,
Navigation (Sea),
Tracking,
Traps,
Ventriloquism.

As these are NOT primary Abilities, I cannot test against them directly (with the exception of Body Crafts), however, having dots in them may increase dice pools on other tests.

Finally let's review Knowledges.

Knowledges - Officially Added - Academics
Enigmas.
Officially Removed - Expert Knowledge.
Bloodlines had a House Rule - Finance
Hearth Wisdom used for Know Local.

Ruling - I will be changing nothing here though I will rename the Knowledge Finance to Commerce & Finance.

We will still use Hearth Wisdom for Local Knowledge.

Academics are already covered by Knowledges such as Law, Medicine, and Theology. Expert Knowledge will cover items like Alchemy or Chemistry which a this point are not widely studied outside of very specialized places and individuals.

Enigmas checks will be covered by Occult.

To read and write a character must possess (at least) two dots of one of the following Knowledges:

Finance, Law, Medicine, Occult, or Theology. The idea is that anything past rudimentary training in these fields required the study of scrolls or manuscripts on the subject at hand.

Knowledges - Expert Knowledge:

These Knowledges encompass the following "secondary talents" from the Vampire Players Guide Second Edition:

Accounting (rudimentary version),
Alchemy,
Architecture,
Area Knowledge,
Astrology,
Biology,
Chemistry,
Clan Lore (Each must be taken individually),
Enigmas,
Geology,
Haggling,
Heraldry,
History (Human only),
Mathematics,
Metallurgy (ironically assists with Craft rolls),
Military Tactics,
Naturalist,
Research.

As these are NOT primary Abilities, I cannot test against them directly, however, having dots in them may increase dice pools on other tests.

Clan Lore is a requirement for you to learn anything deeper about the mysteries of each Clan. It can be gained only by spending time with a member of that Clan who in turn teaches you secrets. For each dot taken, which must be justified either through direct roleplay or downtime planning, I will send you a PM with what "secrets" you know about that particular Clan.

Otherwise, what you know is limited to what is posted in the Gameplay Thread.

One fundamental change though is how we will approach Languages. The V20 Dark Ages utilizes the following Merit

Multi-Lingual (2 points)

Additional languages increase the cost of this Merit by one point per language.

I would like everyone to adjust their characters accordingly as this is a minor issue and each one of you should have at least a freebie point lying around to make this change.

If you prefer, you can simply take this Merit

Lingua Franca (1 point)

You may not be able to hold philosophical discussions, but you can navigate your way through conversations in most places and will be able to communicate sufficiently in dire situations.

Note that this Merit alone without the Multi-Lingual one may preclude you from conversations which take place on a high level such as debates or conclaves utilizing a specific language. Thus far in the Thread, when I am utilizing a different language I state that I am using it and place that conversation in Italics instead of bold. The Bold face type when I utilize it always defaults to Italian, the dominant language of Venice.

All rule changes listed above will be placed with Campaign Information tab which is now chock full of good stuff.

All rule changes will be in effect as of the end of Downtime so for the last few posts before we hit that all important "out-of-game" time period, let's utilize the rules we were using so far.

Taking a break to watch GoT now, will sign back on after to update the Gameplay thread.

Question, i myself used two points to have additional languages originally...so I assume I should reapply those two points to multi lingual. My assumpotion is that Italian is most likely free...so with an intelligence of four should I have four languages besides Italian or four including Italian?

Correct Vitaliano! For some of you, it will be an advantage if you chose a higher intelligence.

I think you need to give out a lot more XP!

How do you pick up language via XP?

Question, i myself used two points to have additional languages originally...so I assume I should reapply those two points to multi lingual. My assumpotion is that Italian is most likely free...so with an intelligence of four should I have four languages besides Italian or four including Italian?

Italian + 4.

Good grief...hmm, I will have to think of some more languages he would likely have picked up or studied

French, English, German, Arabic, Chinese, Hindi!

I currently have French and Latin, I do like your suggestion as to picking up Chinese. I was thinking that as a student of medicine he might learn Chinese to get a feel for both western and eastern style medicine. I am having a hard time choosing between English and Arabic or possibly Spanish given the location. (English and Spanish weigh in a bit heavier in my mind atm) Thoughts on what might be more prevalent to a doctor/the area?

How could I forget Spanish!

Actually, I've been avoiding reading others' stories to keep in have knowledge compartmentalized.

I was just tossing out some popular languages Kindred would be from... African?

Does Chinese being a double byte language cost 2? LOL!

Greek. Slavic. Aramaic (though a bit dated). Nordic. Swahili a big trading language in Africa at the time. Mongolian. Persian (succinct from Arabic I believe not a linguistics guy but maybe Spanish as to Italian?). Yiddish. :-)

I think you need to give out a lot more XP!

How do you pick up language via XP?

Good question, the rules do not seem to address the issue or at least I have not seen it yet. I believe that we can House Rule that, et's say 2 XP for a new language plus a bit of time to learn (progress marked by in-game practice or just learn over a downtime period).

One more point, Literacy should be in no more than one language (Players pick) unless the Literacy merit is taken, see page 422 in V20 Dark Ages game.

OK, Campaign Information updated again all of the above data is included within.

I would think literacy would be included in "full command" of the language?

If now, how would you buy literacy via XP?

1 XP for speech or written, another XP for the other?
2 XP for speach or written, another XP for the other?

I can see instances where you'd learn written before speaking the language to say nothing of native fluency. Contracts, etc...

:)

Okay, I have so much to say on the matter of Academics and Languages.

Academics are added to DA because as a rule people are not educated. This does not mean that people are not university educated. It means they cannot read or write. They cannot reliably add or subtract. Shepherds do not count their sheep. They look them over, calling them out by name. They don't say to themselves, I've only got 49 of 50 here. One's missing. Instead they think, ... Long Shanks, Fluffy and Spot... where's Blackie? I'm missing blackie. He's not here with the rest of them. These are times that beggar our imaginations. It is hard to envision how well educated a high school dropout is compared to the serfs and peasants of the middle ages.

European academics of the middle ages begin with the Trivium. These are the three basic tenets of learning upon which all other education is predicated. Grammar, logic and rhetoric comprise the trivium. That is input, reasoning and output. One would need to learn the trivium before they could begin to study the quadrivium.

The quadrivium is composed of arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. These four, combined with the first three, make up the liberal arts. This is a basic education. This learning was not just required, but was instrumental in allowing a person to study higher, or practical arts, such as architecture, law or medicine.

The knowledges of Finance, Law, Medicine, Occult and Theology do not hinge upon a basic education. A lord, sheriff, priest, etc. can state the laws of the land or precepts of the church and any serf can remember these and recite them back without needing to be educated. Peasants can actually argue the basics of law and theology because they are presented in so simple a manner to them. It could actually confound the lord or priest when the serf responded with, "Yes, milord, the law states I cannot hunt deer in the forest. I found this deer in my vegetable garden."

Finance is not accounting. It does not depend upon knowing how to do more than simple addition and subtraction. It is remembering the prices of items in various places relative to each other. Another knowledge which can be applied without knowing how to read, write or do arithmetic. As you have combined it with Commerce, it moves even more from mathematics. Just look at a modern university. A finance degree is a bachelor's of art unlike an accounting degree which is a bachelor's degree of science.

Theology covers what one know about religion. Anyone ever go to Sunday School as a little kid? Can you still remember what you were taught? Did you ever need to read or write to listen to the lesson? What about the sermon?

As for medicine, did that shepherd need a veterinarian to come treat the sheep or did he just lance the boil himself? Here's the funny thing about that example. In 1309, a shepherd would casually lance a boil on his livestock because he knew it would get rid of the sickness. A European physician would never consider doing the same to their patient because it wasn't covered by Galen, the great Roman physician (no joke, medical progress stopped with his death for the next ~1400 years in Europe). At the same time, doctors in the middle east and elsewhere routinely lanced boils. Just look at the numbers of deaths due to the black plague in each area. Lancing the bubonic boils drastically increased the chances for survival.

Occult is knowledge gained by direct observation. You don't have to read about it to learn it. You can see a vampire biting someone on the neck or a person turn into a wolf. This is separate from Hearth Wisdom which is knowledge gained through anecdotal observation. You learn by the stories your grandmother told you as a child (remember the priest delivering sermons above?) and is often mixed up or conflated due to retelling through the generations and why it is not as good as Occult for knowing of the supernatural.

Academics is a necessary knowledge to represent education.

As for languages, intelligence is not an accurate guide to how many one can know. Sailors often speak multiple languages, and always have, because of their exposure to so many different cultures. Most people didn't go into sailing because they were known as the village prodigy. If you speak multiple languages it most likely because you have lived in places where those languages were spoken. It's a bad rule in D&D and it's no better here.

Additionally, languages are not the same in 1309 as they are now. For example, there is no "French". The two most prevalent spoken languages spoken in France were langue d'oil and langue d'occidental. They are not the same thing and this is still seen in modern day France. Just ask someone from Marseilles how they were treated when speaking to a Parisian on their last trip to Paris. Yet many people in France did speak both. This is why Linguistics is a necessary knowledge and why the exponential growth per dot makes sense.

I learned Spanish in the neighborhood where I grew up. When I went to college, I took French. It was easier because I understood the syntax and grammar of Spanish, another Romance language. When I worked with someone from Poland, I was shocked to learn that Polish is also a Romance language. I had to get my head around the consonant clusters, but once I did, it all made sense. I was relating this to a co-worker who is a native French speaker and told her about how Romanian is so similar that I can read it and understand it. She didn't believe me until I pulled up the Romanian Embassy website and she was amazed how easy it was to understand. She always thought that with all of the different punctuation marks, it was incomprehensible.

I do not think you should drop Academics or Linguistics. They are needed and cannot be easily or adequately replaced by those other knowledges. Moreover, you would now be requiring many more ranks in more abilities to convey the same knowledge.

I guess this is a rant and I apologize for it. At least it is now at an end.

Yes, quite the Rant!

Linguistics

The Linguistics Knowledge was removed from both V20 and Dark Ages V20 by Onyx Press not by Storyteller Shadow. My belief was that the Merit allowing for multiples languages adequately handled the ability to speak multiple languages.

Certainly the fact that there are multiple dialects in areas of close proximity (really in 1309 there is no Italy as we think of it today) is historically factual but from a game play standpoint simply too nuanced to struggle through. The juice is not worth the squeeze with respect to a detail such as that.

I would also agree that Intelligence is not directly linked to the ability to speak multiples languages. However, from a systems standpoint there needs to be some way to make that determination.

I think the approach I am taking here is an advantage for the Players so I will not change that. Linguistics is NOT a Knowledge, if you have points in it, feel free to assign those points to the Merits which cover languages to reduce the impact on your character.

Academics

Just doing some quick research there are approximately 25 Universities scattered across Europe by the Year 1309, most of them have significant involvement with or are run by the church. It seems there are other schools where merchants and nobles are taught more rudimentary studies (in some Italian cities as many as 15 such schools are open), they require a less rigorous curriculum versus the Universities and focus on arithmetic and reading. Still, the majority of people were illiterate in the middle ages (Italian City States seem to have bee the exception to this rule) even in the more noble classes as it was seen as more of a virtue than a requirement.

Certainly I agree that accounting and finance are separate disciplines, I am a Tax Attorney by trade and I have an MBA in finance. I fold Commerce and Finance into a single discipline because I see them as similar enough in the time period that a merchant would need to know both. There is no "market" and few international banks at this time in history. Coinage is certainly coming into its own (fully underway in many cities) as a way of commerce but bartering does still exist. Though as taxes are starting to be levied to finance wars, peasants are starting to need coinage to handle these burdens.

Keep in mind that while loosely based on history, the game is not a perfect reflection of history and I do not think it needs to be.

My comment regarding having two plus dots in Law or Medicine for example I believe was reflective of the fact that normal people will have some knowledge of these disciplines, even without formal training.

Your point regarding excessive points to handle a Knowledge that should be a catch all is well taken though.

Therefore, I will leave Academics as a Knowledge. However, it seems to be a Knowledge rarely called for within the framework of the game which is why I was eliminating it. The specialty options were put in place, and will remain in place, should a character feels that he can make substantial utility of such studies in game. I look forward to seeing what people come up with!

Literacy

As far as literacy goes, literacy and command of the language are not the same thing.

The formal training standard as described in my posts from yesterday were a way for me, in game, to address Alessandro's questions regarding reading and writing without over-complicating the issue.

Let's do this.

You may read and write your native language provided you have 1 dot in Academics OR 3 dots in either Law, Medicine, Occult or Theology.

For every dot in Academics above the first you can read and write that many more languages which you know.

I am leaving it at that as I think that is a workable system and I have no desire to further debate the issue in light of other points I addressed above.

I went ahead and updated my character for the languages and I think given the new rules I might have an idea of what I need to do as far as some of the xp I have earned. I shall wait till of course downtime before I decide anything but I felt the languages portion of it was at least something I needed to go ahead and set up. Yay for more languages.

DM:

I spend 3 merit points to get:

Linguist (3): Italian, Arabic, Chinese

How does the change affect me ?

Michele keep spending those willpower please :)

DM:

I spend 3 merit points to get:

Linguist (3): Italian, Arabic, Chinese

How does the change affect me ?

Get 1 Freebie Point back and choose one extra language. I think Greek is appropriate based on your background.

Thank you for your understanding.

I have backed out the three points in Linguistics. I took the Multi-lingual merit at 4 pts. to represent the four additional languages that I had before. Due to the Intelligence modifier to languages, I added Arabic. It was a language that I wanted to take in the beginning, but I couldn't raise Linguistics any higher and I didn't have any use for the three additional languages it would have imparted.

Languages are now Frisian (native), German (hoch Deutsch), Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Arabic

That left me with two points which I put into Politics 1.

Thank you for your understanding.

I have backed out the three points in Linguistics. I took the Multi-lingual merit at 4 pts. to represent the four additional languages that I had before. Due to the Intelligence modifier to languages, I added Arabic. It was a language that I wanted to take in the beginning, but I couldn't raise Linguistics any higher and I didn't have any use for the three additional languages it would have imparted.

Languages are now Frisian (native), German (hoch Deutsch), Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Arabic

That left me with two points which I put into Politics 1.

I never object to a well reasoned and well supported position thanks for caring enough about paper man to spend that time defending him! I want players that care!

Whistles sheepishly.

Hello
It's DM Beckett.

I've begun to create a character with the rules I saw, but I had a few questions. I wasn't clear on for Attributes if we got a free starting dot or not?

I'm working on a more flushed out background and description, so that should be done tomorrow. I think I'm going to go with Eastern European origin rather than France, and I also see that somehow a bit of my original post get eaten.

Please have a look at my basic stat workup and let me know what I need to do. I'm also shorting myself a Background, just because nothing really fits.