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With all the restrictions already in place on the Gunner's Bandolier, why prevent it ?Because it's completely unnecessary and could easily just be a power grab. Now, do i think a gun with short bow statistics would be unbalancing? No not at all. But if Paizo removed reload as a feature of firearms, a few of them would be strictly superior to things like the shortbow. And we both know that if you removed the reload, nobody's sticking to the guns that stink or even ones that look equivalent to a shortbow; they're going for the dueling pistol or the jezail.
It's unnecessary because if a player wants to build a ranged martial that uses a weapon with the statistics of a shortbow, but also gets the extra proficiency bonus of a gunslinger, they already can. That's just a dex fighter with a shortbow. Again, not really a balance issue to have a gunslinger use shortbow stats, given that the fighter does exactly that. The question is what else you let in the door by getting rid of reload (and pragmatically, what feats and subclass features do you now design for gunslinger since you've zeroed out the value of a whole bunch of their stuff).
"This incredibly spacious bandolier can hold up to 4 one-handed crossbows or firearms that take no more than 1 action to completely reload (typically meaning that weapons with the capacity or repeating traits won't fit in the bandolier's holsters)."
That is hardly the same as asking for removing Reload from all firearms.Just wishing for a fun combat style (draw, shoot, drop in 1 action) that will not even last 2 rounds.
Actually, it is the shoot and drop style so common in pirate movies that just cannot be viable with the PF2 rules, even with the current version of the Gunner's Bandolier.
You always need to reload. Even if you want to use weapons where the visual of reloading does not fit.
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It feels kind of telling that in this thread OP made to talk about wanting to build an exemplar a lot of the defense of the status quo instead pivots toward playing a pure gunslinger instead, a class built from the ground up to salvage these weapons... and even then the results are still kind of whatever.
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It's caused Guns are Balanced Poorly. If you aren't critting you aren't winning with them, generally. Which is about the same s bows but bows have the upside of being Reload 0, Guns have Reload 1+, so if you don't crit you are dealing d8s, the same as a long-bow, but unlike the long-bow they can once=a=turn spam Hunted shot (Ranger Feat) tp fire 2 arrows with 1 Action at 0/-5 MAP but they don't need to Strike > Reload > Strike, they can Strike > Strike > Hunted Shot and Fire 4 Strikes in the same time you can fire 2, at 0/-5/-10/-10 if you're not a Flurry Ranger but if any of those Crit.... You get Deadly.
You feel better cause you can just choose to fire your bow vs needing to reload.
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Just wishing for a fun combat style (draw, shoot, drop in 1 action) that will not even last 2 rounds.Then forget the bandolier, just:
R1: quick draw and shoot (1a), move with running reload (1a), shoot again (1a.).
R2: Risky Reload and fire (1a). If success, move with running reload and fire again. If fail, drop as a free action, quick draw gun #2, and fire.That's the shoot and drop style you want.
You don't need the bandolier to get 2 rounds of fun gun action. Don't you think it's a bit much to imply something like "look, I want to fire the best reload 1 weapons twice per round. And I want 4 of them all magically runed up to the max, without paying any action cost. And I don't want my reload to require a move or other defensive action, I want a reload action that is offensively effective as a strike. Without all three of those things, I'm just not satisfied with gunslinger."
Also it's worth pointing out that many piratey actions and movies would be perfectly well modeled by the Way of the Drifter having a rapier in the other hand and firing and swinging all day long. Nothing more fancy than that. It's totally piratey, and the only negative on this thread about it is Claxon saying that's not the sort of PC he wants. Which is fine, to each their own. But if you Raven want pirate, there it is.
The idea was of shooting and dropping rather than reloading. So Running Reload and Risky Reload do not help.
Please give me an example where using a Gunner's Bandolier that would not require a specific action to copy the runes and draw is overpowered. As I very honestly do not see it.
My idea of the Pirate was still in the Shooting then dropping, as you do not see them reloading when in a fight. And my ideal fantasy would be the guy with so many guns who can wildly just quick draw, shoot and drop them.
Like Merisiel does with all the throwing knives she carries on her.
Even if, in my case, it would be only the 4 from the Gunner's Bandolier.
It feels really like gunners bandolier is more for characters who want to dabble in firearms and occassionally get of a shot then for dedicated firearms users
but now if we homebrew a ikon that is to the gunners bandolier that would be like the shadow sheath to the throwing weapon piece, that would be fun
I do like firearms, I really do, I think they can have a lot of impact, but we do really lack for some options and niches
and they really cant compare to any dedicated reload 0 ranged weapon
and those that are repeating are usually not worth it
(I hate d4 for weapons and will die on that hill)
(I hate d4 for weapons and will die on that hill)
Humble Strikes increases Air Repeater Damage to d6 at least. With Starshot's +1 it's essentially a normal d8 (4.5avg) weapon.
My build got buried as the last post of the first page :c. Lol
I do like firearms, I really do, I think they can have a lot of impact, but we do really lack for some options and niches and they really cant compare to any dedicated reload 0 ranged weapon and those that are repeating are usually not worth it
(I hate d4 for weapons and will die on that hill)
The lack of Martial repeating weapons too...
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It's caused Guns are Balanced Poorly. If you aren't critting you aren't winning with them, generally. Which is about the same s bows but bows have the upside of being Reload 0, Guns have Reload 1+, so if you don't crit you are dealing d8s, the same as a long-bow, but unlike the long-bow they can once=a=turn spam Hunted shot (Ranger Feat) tp fire 2 arrows with 1 Action at 0/-5 MAP but they don't need to Strike > Reload > Strike, they can Strike > Strike > Hunted Shot and Fire 4 Strikes in the same time you can fire 2, at 0/-5/-10/-10 if you're not a Flurry Ranger but if any of those Crit.... You get Deadly.
You feel better cause you can just choose to fire your bow vs needing to reload.
Yep, guns are only good/better if you're getting critical hits. And even with a gunslinger's higher than most proficiency, it's not enough to make critical hits common.
I would honestly rather have a firearm that is 1d8, reload 0, martial proficiency, 1 or 2 hands I don't care, and 50ft or more range. I think that's fair, it's not going to be broken. But the game blocks you from that.
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I dearly wish to play a PFS Halfling Gunslinger MC Investigator with the ability to cast True Strike and Sure Strike from scrolls (and later slots) without Trick Magic Item. But AFAIK this cannot happen before level 8 at the earliest.
To add to the madness, Unexpected Sharpshooter at later levels.
Talk about Critfishing.
Sadly getting PFS characters beyond level 9 is difficult.
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I'm having fun with my exemplar mortar. Dragonette Dromaar with Barricade Buster and Starshot. It solves the buster's range problems by instead giving me a burst up to 60' out. Alternate turns with Skin Hard as Horn or Victor's Wreath. 8 shots is plenty for most fights. As a Dragonette, EVERYONE'S bigger than me, so they're all getting that -2 vs starshot.
Went Runesmith dedication, which is admittedly kinda crap until level 6. But for now I put Marssyl on the gun so all my shots, even those 5' bursts, add secondary explosions of 1 bludgeoning at another 5' out. Though I can't select out allies, so... sometimes unhappyness at table. At 6 level I can pick up Tracing Studies and rebuild for Pattern Flight so that on off-turns I can shoot Lyskel onto people and make them clumsy vs the mortar.
In PFS, I built a gun Exemplar who's sort of loosely based around Nathan Drake from a conceptual standpoint. Archaeologist archetype and related feats to make the character a decent explorer in addition to a solid combatant.
Ikons are:
Doctoral Thesis (Flingflenser, Starshot Ikon)
Lucky Break (Reinforced Stock, Titan's Breaker Ikon)
Gaze Sharp As Steel
Deft epithet allows for one free reload a turn. Flingflenser with the Starshot ikon stacks scatter damage with spirit splash, so its use is when the melees haven't all rushed in yet, or when people don't care about a bit of splash. The Transcend ability for Gaze Sharp As Steel sets up some extra damage for one shot, and when it's active, enemy ranged attacks are less effective.
If enemies close in or allies are worried about splash, alternating the Transcend abilities of Gaze Sharp As Steel and Titan's Breaker makes the character a passable melee combatant without needing to swap weapons or change modes, since it's a reinforced stock.
Peerless Over Heaven can be nice for a firearm exemplar, especially if you gain access to the crit spec beforehand through something like an ancestry feat in order to increase the DC of the stun.