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A dagger is a melee weapon. When you throw it, it is a ranged weapon.
Classifications can change based on how something is used.
Ergo, even something as innocuous as a fan, when wielded like a weapon, is a weapon. Therefore, you cannot combine the aforementioned abilities.
As a GM, I would rule (if someone brought this up and tried to use it regularly) that you need to spend an interact action to "switch" the fan between improvised weapon usage and non-weapon usage. That action tax would likely kill this entirely on it's own and I'd stop that.
And I guess to clarify, I would rule that the item remains in that state of usage until you do something else that would negate that usage.
For example, you're holding it as a non-fan weapon, it remains that way until you switch to use it as a weapon. Then it remains a weapon until you "holster" it or put it away or whatever, when it's clearly no longer being used as a weapon (and inherently you've spent actions, though they may not be tracked assuming the fight is over).
To me it's as simple as:
If you're wielding a weapon, you can't raise your shield/buckler.
In order to make an attack with a weapon, or count as wielding that weapon it must be "used" appropriately to make attacks (which is to say wielded as a weapon). If it's not wielded as a weapon, it's not a weapon at that time.
As a GM, under no circumstances am I going to let you count as wielding two fan weapons and also raise your buckler (unless you have 3 hands).
Which is another way to phrase the real gist of my question. "How, exactly, does one stop wielding an object as an improvised weapon?"
Does it require an Interact action to change your grip on the object to "stop wielding" it?
Would stowing it and bringing it back out do the trick?
The real question is, why do you want it to not count as a weapon? If you want some shenaningans with switching it off and on - I would absolutely put a hard stop to it. Don't do it.
Otherwise, why does it even matter?
I think the answer is clearly yes. They want to wield two fans and use their buckler.
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If I were the GM I'd probably process it like this. When you draw or pick up an item which can be used as an improvised weapon, you can decide if you're wielding it or merely holding it. If you're merely holding it, you can't attack with it or use abilities as if it were being wielded, but you can Interact to 'adjust grip' and switch to wielding. If you're wielding it, you can 'drop' your grip as a free action so that you're merely holding it.
This seems to work well enough for 2h weapons and swapping between wielding and holding, so it doesn't seem unusually permissive or punitive.
If I were to try to represent this narratively, I might say that the fan has a length of cord looped around my wrist. When it's closed and dangling from my wrist, I'm holding it but not wielding it. When I hold open in my hand, I'm wielding it.
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If you are using fans as weapons, you have weapons in your hands, improvised or not. I would be very annoyed as a GM if you tried 'switching' trick with me 'now weapon-now not'.
Agreed. Wielding an item and simply holding that item are different things.
So if some abilities prevent wielding (but allow holding) an item, and other abilities require wielding that same item, then the two sets of abilities cannot be used at the same time.
I would require an Interact: Change Grip action to switch between holding the fan and wielding the fan. Similar to the Interact action needed to switch between ranged and melee usage modes of a Combination weapon.
Honestly, as a gm I would quickly put a stop to it as well
Argument: fighting fans need lots of movement and buckler, no matter how well made, is going to limit that (and make the grip on the fan worse, also the buckler is going to cover half the fan)
while RAW there is some wiggle room for shenanigans
Pathfinder is a system that values a certain degree of logic and RAI
while you are not at my table, I believe that many gms would argue similar and shut down attempts to play the rules like that (of course, there are always exceptions and I am sure some would be quite amused about it)after all, you are supposed to play the game, not the rules.
as a note in 3 parts
1) pathfinders strapped buckler is weird, those ar enot bucklers, those are a different kind of shield
2) it is historically correct to use the buckler hand at the same time for something else, there are even weapons that have a degree of inherent compatibility
3) I would personally actually allow the buckler hand to use quite a variety of objects and weapons, but fans are really not dimensioned in a way that makes sense to combine them with a buckler
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If they're at best improvised weapons, I'd say the PC determines weapon/non-weapon at the beginning of each round, much like when deciding to close one's eyes or not. Then the situation/consequences last until the beginning of their next round. So one could not juggle within one set of actions (even though, as noted by Angwa, that's hardly a cheat anyway). I couldn't see leveling so severe a penalty as a whole action as if regripping meant anything re: how one holds a fan (or many other items one could improvise to Strike with).
At that point it sounds more like they want Parry instead of Raise a Shield with a buckler.
That's a good point.
As a GM, I'd be willing to convert a fighting fan into a slightly different (custom) fan weapon that had the parry trait. Similar end result but with less shenanigans IMO.
If you are using fans as weapons, you have weapons in your hands, improvised or not. I would be very annoyed as a GM if you tried 'switching' trick with me 'now weapon-now not'.Agreed. Wielding an item and simply holding that item are different things.
So if some abilities prevent wielding (but allow holding) an item, and other abilities require wielding that same item, then the two sets of abilities cannot be used at the same time.
I would require an Interact: Change Grip action to switch between holding the fan and wielding the fan. Similar to the Interact action needed to switch between ranged and melee usage modes of a Combination weapon.
The thing is, switching from melee to ranged action cost changes based on the weapon. For instance, a crossbow with a bayonet doesn't require a different grip and doesn't need an action to switch between melee and ranged. With this, IMO, I don't see the "shenanigans" of swapping melee to non-melee when I could melee to ranged with a more complicated weapon at will. The game poorly covers use/wield as you can in effect wield multiple 'items' at the same time in the same hands. The hands to wield a torch is the same hands needed to use one: same with a crossbow and a reinforced stock using the same hands to wield them simultaneously.
I think the only thing that'd mess thing up, IMO, is if the fan in question was actually used as a weapon: at that point, you wouldn't keep your raised shield.
On a different note, I'd like to pose the question of whether it's even worth it to use a regular fan as an improvised weapon.
It's only worth it if you have abilities that make it ok. For instance, Exemplar has Humble Strikes [+1 die size for simple weapons and improvised are simple weapons] or Weapon Improviser archetype [no -2, minimum damage 1d6 or 1d4 if agile] or a Shoony's Improvisational Defender [no -2] and Improvisational Warrior [gain Brawling crit specialization].
EDITED to add: as an open-ended question for anybody to answer, what damage type/amount and weapon abilities would YOU rule an ordinary fan being used as an improvised weapon should have?
Depends on size and construction. Materials could range from paper and thin wood to completely metal, while the end could come to a point, edge or a blunted one. As such, damage type and size would vary IMO.
From Weapon Improviser
"GM Advice: For a GM setting damage, typically a one-handed improvised weapon's damage is 1d4, 1d6, or 1d8; one that needs two hands is 1d8, 1d10, or occasionally 1d12, and an extremely ineffective one might deal 1 damage."
The way damage dice work, damage jumps from 1 to 1d4 so the fan would be 1d4. As to worrying about that being the same damage as a fighting fan, you have to remember it's -2 to hit and missing Agile, Backstabber, Deadly d6, Finesse, Monk and Knife crit specialization: so it loses a LOT [the DM might allow some traits to stay; myself, I'd allow Agile or Finesse to stay]. I might even bump up damage to 1d6 with no traits for a particularly large metal fan.
At that point it sounds more like they want Parry instead of Raise a Shield with a buckler.Unfortunately, while parry and raising a buckler are comparable in most cases, my base class for this character happens to be a Swashbuckler. And with the right feats, a Swashbuckler buckler loses that parry parity.
Honestly, as a GM, after you say this I'd be less willing to bend the rules in your favor.
You're essentially trying to benefit from the feats that favor bucklers for Swashbucklers and the Fan Dancer feats that require two fans at the same time, when it's pretty clear that's meant to be exclusive.
As a GM, the best I would offer is spending an interact action to make an individual improvised fan weapon count as either being wielded as a weapon or not. While it's not wielded as a weapon you could use things associated with your buckler. When it is wielded as a weapon you couldn't use buckler associated things (at least ones that require you to have it raised, it does seem like you can wear a buckler and not use it even when weapons occupy your hand). But you would be able to fulfill Fan Dancer requirements that require two fans.
Is it worth it to potentially waste 1 of your 3 actions each turn switching your improvised weapon on and off to make use of different feats? I can't really answer that for you.
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If I were the GM I'd probably process it like this. When you draw or pick up an item which can be used as an improvised weapon, you can decide if you're wielding it or merely holding it. If you're merely holding it, you can't attack with it or use abilities as if it were being wielded, but you can Interact to 'adjust grip' and switch to wielding. If you're wielding it, you can 'drop' your grip as a free action so that you're merely holding it.
While that addresses the issue with the OP it feels kind of counterintuitive to me given how improvised weapons work that there's a scenario where you're disallowed from making an improvised attack with an object because you didn't pick it up in weapon mode.
I feel like trying to define a hard rule here is just going to break something somewhere else and it's better to just tell a player to please not try to make something like this a thing.
I feel like trying to define a hard rule here is just going to break something somewhere else and it's better to just tell a player to please not try to make something like this a thing.
The rules already do that by saying you can't raise a buckler while wielding a weapon, but the question persisted.
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I feel like trying to define a hard rule here is just going to break something somewhere else and it's better to just tell a player to please not try to make something like this a thing.The rules already do that by saying you can't raise a buckler while wielding a weapon, but the question persisted.
While that is a rule, it doesn't seem to have been made with improvised weapons in mind: carrying a torch in your buckler hand seems 100% on brand but it's one of the items that the game calls out as always being an improvised weapon. IMO, that's why the question comes up as they keep making improvised weapon content without addressing that virtually every item can be an improvised weapon meaning that they'd be incompatible with 'hold item but not weapon' abilities. As is, it's a Schrodinger's weapon situation where it's both an item and a weapon simultaneously.
As is, it's a Schrodinger's weapon situation where it's both an item and a weapon simultaneously.
In the absence of a specific rule, it comes down to GM interpretation. If the GM doesn't think it's overpowered, the GM can allow it, and vice versa.
And I guess to clarify, I would rule that the item remains in that state of usage until you do something else that would negate that usage.
This is how I would rule.
I wouldnt say its a shrödingers weapon situation
while I get where it comes from, it seems pretty clear to me
a fan is a fan and a fighting fan is a fighting fan
while the last one can fulfill the functions of the first, it is always a weapon
and the regular fan is usually mad eof light materials that are just not made to whack ot slice people with
Is the phrase "improvised weapons are simple weapons" only meant to indicate the proficiency rank used rather than whether or not an improvised weapon counts as a weapon?
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I wouldnt say its a shrödingers weapon situation
while I get where it comes from, it seems pretty clear to me
a fan is a fan and a fighting fan is a fighting fan
while the last one can fulfill the functions of the first, it is always a weapon
and the regular fan is usually mad eof light materials that are just not made to whack ot slice people with
Look at a torch. it is always an item for lighting up a space and is also always always an improvised weapons. The same applies to the fan, as the archetype notes you can use them as improvised weapons. The item never turns off [you're still holding a light source]and the improvised weapon never turns on [you always can hit someone with it]: they are simultaneously both. To wield or use them, you use the same hand and nothing indicates they use a different grip. Hence, shrödingers weapon as it is both weapon or item depending on the moment.
My approach would be a little different, but in the same vein- as soon as you Raise a Shield with your buckler, you're no longer wielding anything as an improvised weapon. You've got your buckler up, so you're not holding out a fan menacingly.
I'm probably not going to charge any extra actions for regrip, but you're not going to be able to use any Fan Dancer two-fan reactions while you've got your arm positioned to block.
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No, one action switching back and forth is not reasonable. Even a guy with a bastard sword needs only spend an action when bumping their damage up by +2/die (d8 to d12), not when opening up a hand for interactions and Athletics maneuvers. This build gains less than that for switching.
That said, I'd recommend against the buckler since Fan Dancer kinda fills a better role so (later) you'll want to be in two-fan mode anyway (and Swashbuckler's have good, alternate low-level feats). And the aesthetics. (And I suppose also to avoid this debate at the table!)
Look at a torch. it is always an item for lighting up a space and is also always always an improvised weapons. The same applies to the fan, as the archetype notes you can use them as improvised weapons. The item never turns off [you're still holding a light source]and the improvised weapon never turns on [you always can hit someone with it]: they are simultaneously both. To wield or use them, you use the same hand and nothing indicates they use a different grip. Hence, shrödingers weapon as it is both weapon or item depending on the moment.I wouldnt say its a shrödingers weapon situation
while I get where it comes from, it seems pretty clear to me
a fan is a fan and a fighting fan is a fighting fan
while the last one can fulfill the functions of the first, it is always a weapon
and the regular fan is usually mad eof light materials that are just not made to whack ot slice people with
I don't know that a torch is always an improvised weapon. As noted that would preclude you from using things that say you may hold an item but not a weapon. And I'm doubtful the intention was to break people being able to hold torches. Or course it could be the intention, I don't know factually. And as a GM it's simple to make rules that work this out. Similar to the whole fan thing (as I've been discussing/ruling) the fan or torch functions as its base item or as a weapon, and you choose when you draw it which mode it's in. And it stays in that mode until you spend an action. The torch just also happens to remain a burning torch emitting light when you use it as a weapon.
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I don't know that a torch is always an improvised weapon.
It says it can be used as an improvised weapon and there is nothing to say when or if that turns off. It's like the crossbow with a bayonet: Can you say when or in what circumstances it stops being a melee weapon or a ranged weapon? Would there ever be a circumstance that a stance that requires a melee or ranged weapon ever stop working if you're holding it?
And I'm doubtful the intention was to break people being able to hold torches.
Flip that around once. Do you think the intent is that a stance that requires a weapon would continually turn off when you're using an improvised weapon? After all, "Improvised weapons are simple weapons" and not 'improvised weapons are simple weapons while attacking with them' or 'act as weapons for an attack but are otherwise held items.' With them simply simple weapons, there isn't a situation they aren't that: you are holding then in the required hands to use them, the very definition of wielding as a weapon and using them as an item with nothing indicating it's a binary state between them. It's both a weapon and an item.
Now on the other side, do you think that using a torch turns off it's 'item' use, IE the, light goes out? What does stopping using it as a torch do? Or in the case of a fan, does t stop being able to fan things as a weapon? Doesn't seem like that's the intent or in the rules.
Similar to the whole fan thing (as I've been discussing/ruling) the fan or torch functions as its base item or as a weapon, and you choose when you draw it which mode it's in. And it stays in that mode until you spend an action. The torch just also happens to remain a burning torch emitting light when you use it as a weapon.
You can houserule that, but it's no where in the rules that you can't simultaneously wield/hold multiple things at once when they are built in: for instance, do you force someone with a shield to take an action to switch to a shield spike attack from using a shield for defence? Use an action to use a reinforced stock after a crossbow attack? A Gauntlet Bow spends an action between gauntlet and bow attacks? You're inventing an action that isn't there: when they WANTED an action to switch, they made it very clear in Combination and there's nothing equivalent for improvised weapons.
Hidden rules deep cut - animal instinct violating their anathema by drinking a potion because they used an improvised weapon while raging.
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In seriousness though, I think any discussion of what counts as an improvised weapon must necessarily take intent into account. No amount of rules citation and close reading will get around the fact that this section of the rules is not built as a rigorous physics engine. Using improvised weapons is a niche enough subset of the rules that it isnt and can't really be precisely defined without wasting a bunch of page space better used by offering guidelines and letting the table sort out what seems good enough if an edge case comes up, like whether to count picking up any object as wielding a weapon for the purposes of abilities.
graystone, very reasonable. So, returning to the case, does it follow from your stance that any abilities which don't work with weapons in hand just always turn off when you have things that are explicitly improvised weapons? Do they turn off when you hold an item because most items could be used as improvised weapons?
It wouldn't need an explicit callout. When looking at the Weapon Improviser archetype, things as innocuous as fruit, thorns and mushrooms are listed as improvised weapon options. When a banana can be an improvised weapon, a RAW answer would be that almost nothing qualifies to be used with something worded like the buckler.
Switching is actually an attempt to be permissive while trying to follow 'no weapons' requirements.
I understand but, IMO, it's the wrong way to go when so many other objects that have dual uses and do not need to use such an action and the ones that do are weapons that require reloading.
I'd go with 'You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light or negligible object that's not a weapon in that hand. Light or negligible improvised weapons count as objects instead of weapons for this.'
PS: it should be noted that the buckler is so poorly worded that you are unable to hold a negligible bulk item in your hand and raise your buckler: only a Light bulk item qualifies. :P
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I was not aware of this!
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I was not aware of this!
Whoops, I should clarify. They don't have anathema anymore, but their rage just flat out prevents you from using weapons while raging. Its not a personal taboo anymore, but it's still a restriction. Didn't mean to get your hopes up!
graystone, why are you cherry-picking the text of torch to imply that it's "always an improvised weapon" or something. Here, let me quote its FULL text for context, emphasis on the improvised weapon bit
"A torch sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light to the next 20 feet) for 1 hour. It can be used as an improvised weapon that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage plus 1 fire damage."
I explained; there is no rules or text for how one uses it as an improvised weapon other than improvised weapon ARE simple weapons. IE, always improvised as they are always a simple weapon. Also no rules/text exists for a way to use an item as an improvised weapon other than to wield it and the exact same requirements exist for using an item and wielding a weapon: holding it in the number of hands requires to use it. Please point out anything I've said that incorrect or misleading.
Saying that it CAN be used as an improvised weapon isn't what makes it special. ALL objects can be used as improvised weapons, even fruit, as mentioned "for inspiration" in the text for the Weapon Improvisor archetype. But their damage, or even IF they do damage, is usually up to the GM. From Improvised Weapons, "The GM determines the amount and type of damage the attack deals, if any, as well as any weapon traits that the improvised weapon should have." What the text for torch does is define exactly how much and what types of damage it does instead of leave it to GM prerogative. So it's not saying the torch is as an "always on" improvised weapon unlike other objects. It's specifying its damage and setting a potential precedent for similar improvised weapons
Everyone's arguing "when" an object is an improvised weapon as if we can't know for sure. But there is a rule for it, again in the text for Improvised Weapons, "If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons are simple weapons. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon."
"If you attack..., you're making an attack with an improvised weapon."
Let me point out the important part that disproves what you're saying: "Improvised weapons are simple weapons." Not acts as one for the attack, but are simple weapons:IE always a weapon. It seems to me that you've tried to do what you claimed I did; cherry picking sections of the text that seems to prove your point while ignoring the parts that don't. There is NO text saying improvised weapon are at some point not treated as simple weapons, only that the ARE simple weapons. As such, I stand by my statement "that a torch is always an improvised weapon" as there is no mechanism in the game to wield/use it as not a weapon but use it as an item and the text plainly calls it out as a weapon as it can be used as an improvised weapon. If it was meant to only be a weapon while attacking, they'd have to word it like shield bash ["shield bash is not actually a weapon"], but then it doesn't work with things that require a weapon like stances.
Should a Weapon Improvisor not benefit from such spells just because what they're "wielding" isn't technically a weapon?
As pointed out, they are 100% simple weapon. Second, they already can use handwraps of mighty blows, so I don't see any reason they can't use those spells. Heck, as simple weapon you could just put the runes on the improvised weapons, though it's a bad idea on an archetype that breaks their weapons.
Whoops, I should clarify. They don't have anathema anymore, but their rage just flat out prevents you from using weapons while raging. Its not a personal taboo anymore, but it's still a restriction. Didn't mean to get your hopes up!
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Whoops, I should clarify. They don't have anathema anymore, but their rage just flat out prevents you from using weapons while raging. Its not a personal taboo anymore, but it's still a restriction. Didn't mean to get your hopes up!