Samurai and Ninja in Second Edition

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Be aware, all, that this is a debate which has already been hashed out at length several times before, and likely will be again. Some of it is lost because blog posts lost their comments sections, but I can still see evidence in my posting history.

I know it's fun to gripe and feel like been heard, but I don't imagine digital ink spilled here is going to mark a significant footnote in the history of Ninja & Samurai as pertains to PF2e. The question of why they don't currently exist (and probably won't soon) has been addressed.

We are all, of course, free to continue the debate (don't think me hypocritical if I'm still here next week on page 3 of this thread; I just failed the Will save) but I don't think it will have been time well-spent at the end of the day, so here's your complementary check-in before running up that hill to move the flag another inch this way or that.

[Teridax]

When this discussion comes up, I think the most useful part of it is when people bring up what they think is missing from the ninja or samurai fantasy they're envisioning in PF2e: if the only thing that's missing is a class specifically called "the Ninja" or "the Samurai", then that's the kind of want that's either easily satisfied by renaming existing classes like the Rogue or the Fighter, or that will likely never be satisfied due to the very existence of those classes that fulfill those themes already. If the ask is more for a certain range of mechanics that have yet to be implemented or made available to a particular class, then making those options available would benefit the game as a whole, including players wanting those specific character fantasies like a iaido practitioner or a magical assassin.

In this respect, although there is a measured discussion to be had around orientalism, overexposure of certain tropes, and how that can lead to things like oversimplified perceptions of certain cultures, underrepresentation of other cultural elements, and confusion between myth and historical fact, I also feel that kind of discussion is a bit of a red herring when it comes to wanting a particular character concept in-game. In the end, I think it boils down to people either wanting a pre-packaged option with a specific name attached to it, regardless of its contents, or wanting specific character options that can be attached to what we have already in order to better blend certain themes with game mechanics. If we can identify the latter and come up with options for those, as has happened in prior discussions, then that I think would satisfy the players who are able to be reasonably satisfied, and who can't already be satisfied by existing options.

[Ryangwy]

I think there's a nonzero chance of the ninja being an official class in PF2e because arcane trickster is a pretty deep well of class space that's currently unexplored (no, the now-defunct arcane trickster for rogues doesn't count) and 'ninja' genuinely is the cleanest one-word name you can ascribe that class.

The samurai... isn't a class. It's at minimum two completely polar concepts, one being an armoured knight except with Japanese weapons and armour and the other being a silk-wearing duelist ala swashbuckler. The PF1e samurai is just a very specific calvalier, anyway, which is now (mostly) the 2e commander. There's unfortunately no way for a swashbuckler to repeatedly draw and sheathe a katana for bonus damage but iaijutsu is specific enough a concept it can easily go unfulfilled just because nobody in Paizo wants to do it

[Powers128]

Yeah something like a naruto ninja is just as much of a worthwhile trope as magical girls are ala starlight sentinel. It's far enough removed from any realistic depictions of ninjas imo.

[Ryangwy]

Powers128 wrote:

Yeah something like a naruto ninja is just as much of a worthwhile trope as magical girls are ala starlight sentinel. It's far enough removed from any realistic depictions of ninjas imo.

Funnily enough as I understand it the Naruto-style ninja is actually the 'original' and the nonmagical assassin is the fictitious Western invention.

(With a bit of historical weirdness in that many of the folklore ninjas were real people from the Sengoku that were postfactually grouped together as ninjas and also given supernatural powers at the same time, so people checking out their historical selves do see a regular person good at sneaking and killing, in the same way that there's almost certainly a historical King Arthur.... who isn't Christian, doesn't wear plate mail and can't be a knight because the concept (as used) postdates him.)

[Powers128]

I'd give paizo the benefit of the doubt that their rationale is more sophisticated than just some flavor of internet outrage. Their team is relatively diverse I'm pretty sure.

[The Raven Black]

exequiel759 wrote:

Agonarchy wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

My feeling is that all this controversy about ninjas and samurai is mostly white people talking at each other how other ethnicities might feel about something, while the vast majority of those other ethnicities would go "What the heck are you talking about, ninjas and samurai are awesome".

You can't determine pop culture on the basis that someone might be possibly offended, because inevitably you will always find a few outliers who are offended by anything.

Rather than relying in feelings, I encourage you to learn about the topic and its history from cited scholarly sources. People who are not Japanese themselves are often responding to the historical wishes of groups who have expressed a desire to be treated a certain way. Paizo, for their part, generally hires appropriate experts to help them maintain cultural sensitivity.

We have a Japanese person on this very thread talking about how ninja and samurai are perfectly fine if they were to be classes though.

But anyways, I still would prefer for these to not become classes either way. Samurai IMO doesn't really have much going on that a fighter with a katana (for the most basic representation of samurai) or the cavalier archetype (for the more appropiate representation) wouldn't achieve, and ninja is both too broad and too narrow of a concept to be represented in a class. If you make the classic stealth assassin ninja then you are making rogue 2.0, and if you are making a naruto ninja then you are making a spellcaster, and a fan from either of them won't be happy with the other.

Archetypes are fair game though. More than half of the archetypes aren't that good anyways, so if Paizo made one for each, even if they weren't that good, then people would stop complaining about wanting them. A bit pessimistic but its clear Paizo doesn't want to make them, for whatever white guilt reason.

"White guilt" unlikely. Caring about relevant people's opinions far more likely.

Rest assured though that should Paizo make Ninja and Samurai archetypes, these would be criticized by most people clamoring for those as classes, because it would not fit their image of what ninja and samurai should be. And they would also be criticized by those who would feel it is orientalism back again.

Net loss overall.

[exequiel759]

I mean, I can't speak about japanese people because I'm not japanese, but as someone born on latin america every time I see someone that supposedly cares about latino representation are usually white americans that don't know there's other countries in latin america besides Mexico or hispanic people born in the US that call themselves latinos and don't know even 3 words of spanish or tell you more than 2 dishes from their country other than the more popular ones. What I'm trying to say is, there's people that like to get offended by stuff that doesn't belong to them, and there's people that like to appropiate themselves of a culture they barely know because of their ancestry, and I find that more racist than the people that supposedly does tokenism.

[The Raven Black]

Note that Plane did not say they were Japanese.

[exequiel759]

The Raven Black wrote:

Rest assured though that should Paizo make Ninja and Samurai archetypes, these would be criticized by most people clamoring for those as classes, because it would not fit their image of what ninja and samurai should be. And they would also be criticized by those who would feel it is orientalism back again.

And that discussion would last exactly 2 days before everyone forgets about it. It happened with the vindicator and the inquisitor, the thaumaturge and the occultist, the bloodrager, the animist and the shaman, etc. 2 infamous archetypes won't kill Paizo, but 2 infamous classes can actually scare people about the direction the system is taking. It just happened with the slayer and the daredevil a month ago, and I think its for the better if we don't repeat that again.

[The Raven Black]

All that said, I agree with Teridax that what is best is when people explain what they want their PF2 character to be able to do. In this case, how they envision their ninja or samurai PC's abilities and then the forum's hivemind can consider how best to simulate it. Same as any character concept really.

[Agonarchy]

exequiel759 wrote:

I mean, I can't speak about japanese people because I'm not japanese, but as someone born on latin america every time I see someone that supposedly cares about latino representation are usually white americans that don't know there's other countries in latin america besides Mexico or hispanic people born in the US that call themselves latinos and don't know even 3 words of spanish or tell you more than 2 dishes from their country other than the more popular ones. What I'm trying to say is, there's people that like to get offended by stuff that doesn't belong to them, and there's people that like to appropiate themselves of a culture they barely know because of their ancestry, and I find that more racist than the people that supposedly does tokenism.

While there are certainly a good chunk of people who do this, there are a good chunk of people who do not. Personally, I am half French Canadian and got to listen to my fellow Americans making bad cliches about both heritages. I also come from a diverse family from a rough and racially complex area, where being a little tan gets you hassled by police, and being pale enough means you can lie about your heritage to escape it.

There is no singular experience that applies to all.

[keftiu]

It's really as simple as not wanting to "Samurai" to be hailing from places like Fantasy China and the Fantasy Philippines.

[PossibleCabbage]

keftiu wrote:

It's really as simple as not wanting to "Samurai" to be hailing from places like Fantasy China and the Fantasy Philippines.

The other thing is that if your character is in a specific martial order or in the service to a specific state entity, that's the sort of thing we want a specific archetype for (e.g. Knight Vigilant, Eagle Knight, Lion Blade, Pure Legion Enforcer), since at the very least that's also an option to convey "what this corner of the setting is like."

That we haven't done a bunch of these for Tian Xia is mostly because the Inner Sea region is the main focus of the Pathfinder setting and you're not going to put Tian Xia archetypes in a book about Qadira or an adventure set in Numeria.

[TheTownsend]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

keftiu wrote:

It's really as simple as not wanting to "Samurai" to be hailing from places like Fantasy China and the Fantasy Philippines.

The other thing is that if your character is in a specific martial order or in the service to a specific state entity, that's the sort of thing we want a specific archetype for (e.g. Knight Vigilant, Eagle Knight, Lion Blade, Pure Legion Enforcer), since at the very least that's also an option to convey "what this corner of the setting is like."

That we haven't done a bunch of these for Tian Xia is mostly because the Inner Sea region is the main focus of the Pathfinder setting and you're not going to put Tian Xia archetypes in a book about Qadira or an adventure set in Numeria.

That'd be funny. "The archetypes you're looking for are Minkaian Retainer and Jade Throne Assassin. They're from an AP and both have the Rare tag."

[moosher12]

I feel like for ninja at least, the best result would be either a class or a class archetype. But a normal archetype would struggle.

The reason is because, if someone wants to play a ninja, sneak attack is iconic. That's why Laughing Shadow Magus sort of gets scoffed at. Laughing Shadow magus can do trickster stuff, yes, but it simply lacks that assassination feel. And the closest you'll get to it is archetyping into rogue, but the core rogue stuff is heavily nerfed that way. And the reliance on using arcane cascade isn't really part of the fantasy. Too much magic, not enough assassination. It's a balancing act.

I think the answer is to buff Eldritch Trickster from a racket to a class archetype racket, like the vindicator. Let it change some fundamentals of how the rogue works (nerf some of its physical capability, while giving it spellcasting prowess, while overall keeping access to the rogue feat set), give it bespoke feats that support the fantasy of being a setting agnostic spellcasting assassin or thief

The reason that Eldritch Trickster has yet to come back as it is is because it simply does not grant enough benefit over Thief Racket plus archetyping into Wizard, which is why it should be buffed into a class archetype, so that it can fulfill its class fantasy.

Also, we want a setting agnostic class, class archetype, or archetype, for this for one reason. We already have an archetype within the world that works as a ninja. The problem is, we can rarely use it. That's the Red Mantis Assassin. Because its requirements require you be a worshipper of achaekek and use sawtooth sabers. And not everyone wants to be a Red Mantis Assassin, while not every GM is gonna be willing to let the Red Mantis Assassin work with just any weapon. Essentially it's the Automaton problem, everyone who uses the archetype within the Lost Omens campaign setting has to tie their lore to the Red Mantis Assassins, who attack anyone who is caught using their equipment without being one. As all automatons have to tie their lore back to the Jistka Imperium.

[exequiel759]

I find really weird we haven't gotten eldritch trickster again yet. I think most people assumed it was scrapped in the Remaster because it was a trap option, but that they were going to repurpose it somewhere else in a new book, after applying the neccesary buffs ofc. I guess it could still show up in Impossible Magic (a decent size of the book is going to remasters of the content that wasn't remastered yet after all), but if it doesn't, I think its likely Paizo scrapped it.

[moosher12]

While I'm holding out hope for Impossible Magic, I think there is a glimmer of hope for next years book. Lower chance, but not infeasible. The next book, judging by the latest blog post, hints that the book will be about dungeon delving. And hiring an eldritch trickster to do things like 1E's ranged legerdemain could apply to such a book. But it is certainly a longer shot than Impossible Magic.

[Powers128]

The return of Eldritch trickster would be great. I'd also like some sort of unarmored swordsman archetype.

[Crouza]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think part of the issue is that Paizo is pretty clear that people with full casting potential shouldn't be that capable in melee combat, just for niche protection for fighters etc. So a Wizard-Ninja runs into that issue, and I'm wondering if you couldn't just do this with a Magus or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

Now there's certainly room for wave-casters in Occult, Primal, and Divine but I'm not sure if any of those dip too much into the ninja fantasy.

I don't know man, Laughing Shadow Dex Magus or Vindicator Ranger feel pretty close to what I'd imagine a caster ninja to be like. Laughing shadow for the high magic, teleporting around, slap a person with a chidori type of ninja. And Vindicator for if you want a more skill focused, tricksy, magic-as-a-tool type of pragmatic ninja.

[moosher12]

For the case of Vindicator, only having focus spells doesn't really feel like being a spellcaster.

[Crouza]

ornathopter wrote:

Also, people in the diaspora are going to have a very different experience than people living in Japan. It's very easy to think ninjas are silly to worry about when you are a Japanese person surrounded by other Japanese people all the time - a Japanese-American nerd who's been the only Asian person in every gaming group they've ever been in is going to have had more bad experiences and times they've felt humiliated or exoticized or just gotten constant little reminders that their favorite hobby was heavily shaped by writers who would have called them a slur if they ever met. There is a lot of writing by Asian-American ttrpg nerds about this exact topic. Because again - no one in this thread is saying "nobody should EVER play a ninja or samurai!", they're saying 'you don't need a special option for playing a ninja or samurai, you can do that already.'

My own play group heard I was making a ronin style drifter for our first pf 2e game and wouldn't stop saying "Honor-Abu!" every chance they got, and doing that specific stereotype voice. These are people I genuinely know are good people, this shit is just that pervasive in the space because it's rare for anyone to call people on this shit, and when they do, they get absolutely drowned out/swarmed by everyone else wanting to do the "rikey-flied-lice" accent because "its' funny" and "its harmless".

[Crouza]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Be aware, all, that this is a debate which has already been hashed out at length several times before, and likely will be again. Some of it is lost because blog posts lost their comments sections, but I can still see evidence in my posting history.

I know it's fun to gripe and feel like been heard, but I don't imagine digital ink spilled here is going to mark a significant footnote in the history of Ninja & Samurai as pertains to PF2e. The question of why they don't currently exist (and probably won't soon) has been addressed.

We are all, of course, free to continue the debate (don't think me hypocritical if I'm still here next week on page 3 of this thread; I just failed the Will save) but I don't think it will have been time well-spent at the end of the day, so here's your complementary check-in before running up that hill to move the flag another inch this way or that.

I'd rather this thread be hijacked by people showing off their concepts for Samurai and Ninja tbh. At least something productive would come out of that.

Since I threw my hat in with the laughing shadow magus ninja, might as well cover a samurai idea I've been itching to make. I'd plant to pick Commander and make an older samurai who was injured in battle, vaguely based on fictionalized shingen takeda, and who uses a war fan as their banner to signal my party members for my tactics.

[Agonarchy]

I would love a swashbuckler build that was more oriented toward stealth and gadgets. Can easily build any number of action spies that way, like a fantasy James Bond, Batman/Robin, creepy shadow clown, etc., but also fit ninja and assassin tropes. Sneaky tricky tots and flashbang surprises make for great showy fun just as much as ninja flips and swinging from ropes. And with the right build on an awakened duck, well, Let's Get Dangerous.

[TheTownsend]

I've often been fond of the idea of a Skeleton Swashbuckler who's a post-seppuku samurai, left to decay on the battlefield before awakening many years later, and fighting with the enchanted wakizashi the previous him did it with.

Personally as far as ninja builds go I prefer a monk over a rogue, more focus on defense and mobility, lean into the high-flying feats angle. Combine shooting stars stance with the Assassin dedication if you're using Free Archetype.

[Ryangwy]

Agonarchy wrote:

I would love a swashbuckler build that was more oriented toward stealth and gadgets. Can easily build any number of action spies that way, like a fantasy James Bond, Batman/Robin, creepy shadow clown, etc., but also fit ninja and assassin tropes. Sneaky tricky tots and flashbang surprises make for great showy fun just as much as ninja flips and swinging from ropes. And with the right build on an awakened duck, well, Let's Get Dangerous.

Ehh, we already have Dex Armour Inventor for that...

I think that it's important to view ninja 'gadgets' more like spell components (e.g. fireball needing guano, animal friendship needing food) than technology. I think a fair, culturally accurate representation of ninjas needs to cast off the arcane and/or primal list because the trope makers like Sarutobi Sasuke (yes, really, many of the important ninjas in Naruto are based off folklore ninjas) and Jiraya can breathe fire, wind and poison, jump supernaturally, turn invisible, teleport, grow larger or smaller, summon animals, transform into animals... if that sounds like a best hit list of the arcane and primal tradition, it's because it is. Yeah, sure, they breathe fire by hiding flint in their mouth and create obscuring mist by tossing homemade bombs, but doesn't that sound like a prepared caster?

I think this also represents a lot of arcane trickster tropes (except the spellthief but spellthieves are awkward) and I think excluding the nonmagical or focus point only concepts that people also call ninja is a good idea. Those are already covered by stuff like Magus and Ranger (and... not very ninja tbh but I watched Ninja Sentai Kakuranger, I'm probably an outlier for English speaking ninja fans)

[Easl]

Ryangwy wrote:

Agonarchy wrote:

I would love a swashbuckler build that was more oriented toward stealth and gadgets. Can easily build any number of action spies that way, like a fantasy James Bond, Batman/Robin, creepy shadow clown, etc., but also fit ninja and assassin tropes. Sneaky tricky tots and flashbang surprises make for great showy fun just as much as ninja flips and swinging from ropes. And with the right build on an awakened duck, well, Let's Get Dangerous.

Ehh, we already have Dex Armour Inventor for that...

I think that it's important to view ninja 'gadgets' more like spell components (e.g. fireball needing guano, animal friendship needing food) than technology.

Honestly it sounds to me like there's at least three themes that different tables, players, or GMs would want to emphasize (realistic stealth ninja; magical ninja; james bond ninja), so any class or class archetype is likely to disappoint at least 2/3 of players lol because it won't reflect their mental notion of what it should be. And while it's nice to recognize original folklore, modern books and films are perfectly fine for a player to draw their PC's inspiration from too.

Given that, I'm totally fine with no bespoke class or even archetype. Use the tools Paizo has to realize your vision, and if it's just the lack of a name on the class, well, rename it. Though I do agree with Teridax that a good way Paizo could support the ask would be to offer additional game-mechanical "tools" (feats, spells, etc.) so that someone using a base class + existing archetype and then leaning into the theme has ways to get to a character with the right "toolbox."

[Ryangwy]

Easl wrote:

Honestly it sounds to me like there's at least three themes that different tables, players, or GMs would want to emphasize (realistic stealth ninja; magical ninja; james bond ninja), so any class or class archetype is likely to disappoint at least 2/3 of players lol because it won't reflect their mental notion of what it should be. And while it's nice to recognize original folklore, modern books and films are perfectly fine for a player to draw their PC's inspiration from too.

Yeah, that wraps back to why it's unlikely for a ninja or samurai class to be made in PF2e, where Paizo tries to be a lot more careful about the class fantasy (okay, R&R, but I think that would make them more cautious going forward, not less). If ninja makes it back in, it's going to be, as I mentioned, because no better name can be found for magic rogue class and they decide that making the TMNT/Daredevil/Batman fans unhappy their ninja has too much magic is worth it.

To be a bit more productive than that, if I could propose a framework for such a ninja to fill a genuinely missing class fantasy, I would base it off the Warpriest (no doctrine selection here). They get full martial weapons at 1st level but no shield block/medium armour, swap their Will progression for Reflex, shittier sneak attack progression (start 1d4 ala Sneak Attacker, caps out at 2d6) that applies to damaging spells, their choice of Arcane (Int) or Primal (Wis) casting with the appropriate skill + Stealth, Swash type additional skill increase, no font, the ability to add a +2 circumstance bonus to Strikes (starting 5th) and saves vs spells (at 7th) against off-guard enemies (this probably means dropping master Strikes at 19).

To tie it together... a 1st level free action metamagic that lets you Create a Diversion using Arcana or Nature any enemy who you didn't critically miss or that didn't critically succeed against your spell, lasting until end of next turn, and a two-action Strike that makes hit enemies off-guard to your next spell? So unlike the Magus you'll be trying to alternate damaging spells and Strikes, unless you can enable off-guard in another way.

I can think of many more potential additions but I'll leave it as this for now.

[Maya Coleman]

I know there is a lot of discussion here, but I just wanted to say that yes, Paizo always either hires freelance writers a part of the culture that inspires the new writing OR reaches out to writers already on staff who represent those influences!

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, the thing about the "Fighter" is that that it's just "someone who is well trained with weapons and adequately trained with armor". Beyond that, you build it how you want.

I don't really understand what there is about a fighter or guardian who wears O-Yoroi armor and wields a polearm in the glaive/naginata/woldo/guandao style that doesn't read as "Samurai" if you give it an appropriate backstory and personality.

Less so than the fictional ninja, the samurai doesn't appear to have any need of magic whatsoever.

[Ryangwy]

Indi523 wrote:

I would argue that the current traditional western warrior classes probably do not fit well with their Oriental versions. Sure there is the Champion but the Champion is more religious based and deals in Divinity. The Divine in Korea were more like shamans and I suspect the Flower knights more than likely would know arcane magic rather than divine. Same with the Samarai. Certainly Smarai and Hwarang would be better trained in Lore skills and maybe would have a bardic ability to recall any lore even if they did not have it.

It's true the Fighter is a bad fit for Eastern noble warrior class. That's because the Fighter is a poor fit for almost all noble warrior classes (here meaning the social construct); the thing about being a class of people whose entire life purpose is to get swole to crunch heads is that you end up picking up a variety of weapons to cover all angles.

The Fighter is monofocused on one weapon type due to the gamification of the concept of the fighting man; it's easy to give pick-from-list abilities that benefit one single weapon, and over time that became the mechanical identity of the class. That's not to say the Fighter is a bad class; it instead best represents citizen militias like the Greek hoplites and English longbowmen who only have time to practice one weapon, or professionalised military like Swiss Guards, Zweihanders and the ubiquitous Pikemen that don't have infinite money to chase being good with everything.

The noble warrior class is better represented by the Ranger (remember, Aragon is a king) or Commander; good with multiple different weapons, familiar with nature (a reminder that hunting, tracking and raising combat animals was a noble pastime) or warfare lore. This honestly covers almost all such people across all cultures, really. There's no need for them to know magic (beyond what the Ranger can already get) or have Bardic Lore, you can just pick up more lores (or archetype in) if you feel like it.

[exequiel759]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, the thing about the "Fighter" is that that it's just "someone who is well trained with weapons and adequately trained with armor". Beyond that, you build it how you want.

I don't really understand what there is about a fighter or guardian who wears O-Yoroi armor and wields a polearm in the glaive/naginata/woldo/guandao style that doesn't read as "Samurai" if you give it an appropriate backstory and personality.

Less so than the fictional ninja, the samurai doesn't appear to have any need of magic whatsoever.

That's the thing though, what people want of "samurai" isn't what a samurai was IRL, what they want is an anime swordsman that slashes the air to throw shockwaves to their enemies, cut buildings in half with a single slash, and jump to deflect a meteor that could have destroyed the whole city. That's why most people here think that a class can't be enough for either samurai or ninja, because it doesn't matter which approach you take there's going to be people disappointed.

[TheTownsend]

Slightly tangental, but I've realised you can play the Japanese Imperial Regalia/"Three Sacred Treasures" as your three Thaumaturge impliments: sword, mirror, and the bead/jewel could be an amulet or regalia to avoid having two reaction impliments.

Do with that what you will, I have a character in mind who bailed on a heist and is almost certain he took the forgeries.

[exequiel759]

TheTownsend wrote:

Slightly tangental, but I've realised you can play the Japanese Imperial Regalia/"Three Sacred Treasures" as your three Thaumaturge impliments: sword, mirror, and the bead/jewel could be an amulet or regalia to avoid having two reaction impliments.

Do with that what you will, I have a character in mind who bailed on a heist and is almost certain he took the forgeries.

I guess you could do a similar concept with an exemplar (which arguably fits a samurai a bit more, at least the anime version) with the Gleaming Blade, Mirrored Aegis, and Victor's Wreath ikons. Its not even a bad combo; start combat with Mirrored Aegis, trascend, and then keep switching betweem Gleaming Blade and Victor's Wreath for the rest of combat.

[Teridax]

Trying to narrow a few bits of feedback here down into a few concrete points:

* There seems to be some level of demand for more iaido-focused options, like Quick Draw but with additional mechanics around drawing and sheathing one's weapon. This relates to the conversation mainly because this one of the samurai's thematic elements that players feel is missing, especially on classes that lack Quick Draw like the Fighter.

* Similarly, there seems to be some level of demand for better switch-hitting options. In particular, the Fighter's specialization in one weapon group is generally seen as a limitation to their ability to play a samurai effectively.

* The main thing that seems missing from making rogues into ninjas is an effective magic-based option, as the Eldritch Trickster racket isn't really good at what it offers.

Based on this, it feels to me like a fair part of this demand could be satisfied with a few targeted improvements and additions: if the Eldritch Trickster were made good at its niche, then that would enable more magical ninja builds, and if the Fighter or a martial archetype offered draw-based benefits and improved switch-hitting, then building that very particular katana- or naginata-wielding, mounted bow-firing samurai concept would become much easier. Independently of this, these additions could also benefit a wider array of character concepts (the Eldritch Trickster racket could cater to any sneaky, gishy character fantasy, and you could use those same switch-hitting options to build a Mongol mounted archer, for instance), so it would be possible to cater to those wanting a specific ninja or samurai while enabling a far broader array of builds as a whole.

[Dubious Scholar]

Yeah. I do think iaido can just be handled by an archetype - basic enabling with a minor bonus and then feats for various fancy attacks. (Please?)

Switch-hitting has long been a weakness of the system, but I'd argue it's more keeping multiple weapons up to par where you run into issues with resources. You're always making sacrifices somewhere to get it going. Finesse weapons are weaker, but otherwise you have to double dip STR/DEX and that's even worse, etc.

Ninja type stuff exists in many classes. Monks get wall running and water walking, etc. and can do some of the supernatural agility things. Rogues get a touch of that at high levels, and are fantastic at the assassination angle. I think Kineticist actually touches on some of the more magic ninja stuff, if you want someone who fights by chaining fireballs into faces and such.

[Kyrone]

When I was playing the game with more frequency I did homebrew some Iaido stuff. Like sheathing the weapon giving the effects of parry and while you are like that if you attacked and the enemy missed you could use your reaction to strike back and if that didn't happen on your next turn you could use a 'quick draw' action with some bonus damage.

Ninja today I would go for the Rogue with Alchemist dedication using the options available, have bombs, smoke, energy mutagens and even tools.

[exequiel759]

I think the most basic implementation of iaido could be with an archetype that had a dedication with an effect similar to "You gain the Quick Draw feat. The first time you make a succesful Strike as part of drawing your weapon in a round, you deal an extra die of weapon damage. At 10th level, this increases to two extra dice, and at 18th level, this increases to three extra dice." plus a couple more feats that went along with this playstyle.

[Easl]

Ryangwy wrote:

The Fighter is monofocused on one weapon type due to the gamification of the concept of the fighting man; it's easy to give pick-from-list abilities that benefit one single weapon, and over time that became the mechanical identity of the class. That's not to say the Fighter is a bad class; it instead best represents citizen militias like the Greek hoplites and English longbowmen who only have time to practice one weapon, or professionalised military like Swiss Guards, Zweihanders and the ubiquitous Pikemen that don't have infinite money to chase being good with everything.

The noble warrior class is better represented by the Ranger (remember, Aragon is a king) or Commander; good with multiple different weapons...

No argument that other classes may have non-melee skills that fit the trope well. However it baffles me that people keep thinking of fighter as 'mono-focused' when it is as good with all the other weapons as the Commander and Ranger and the other martials. Nothing prevents you from taking your specialty in Sword and then swinging a polearm or firing a bow when the need or situation calls for it. It's like saying "Bob has a fruit salad with world class cantaloupe. Charlie has a fruit salad with average cantaloupe. Therefore, Bob can only possibly ever eat cantaloupe." It just does not follow. Bob isn't more limited than Charlie - rather, Charlie is more limited than Bob.

[Crouza]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Yeah. I do think iaido can just be handled by an archetype - basic enabling with a minor bonus and then feats for various fancy attacks. (Please?)

Switch-hitting has long been a weakness of the system, but I'd argue it's more keeping multiple weapons up to par where you run into issues with resources. You're always making sacrifices somewhere to get it going. Finesse weapons are weaker, but otherwise you have to double dip STR/DEX and that's even worse, etc.

Ninja type stuff exists in many classes. Monks get wall running and water walking, etc. and can do some of the supernatural agility things. Rogues get a touch of that at high levels, and are fantastic at the assassination angle. I think Kineticist actually touches on some of the more magic ninja stuff, if you want someone who fights by chaining fireballs into faces and such.

The best thing about an iaido focused archetype is it can pull double duty with the quick draw gunslingers, or make Alchemists and thrown builds very happy.

[exequiel759]

Honestly, we don't even need an archetype, we just need the feats. The duelist archetype feels like the perfect place for iaido-themed feats.

[PossibleCabbage]

exequiel759 wrote:

That's the thing though, what people want of "samurai" isn't what a samurai was IRL, what they want is an anime swordsman that slashes the air to throw shockwaves to their enemies, cut buildings in half with a single slash, and jump to deflect a meteor that could have destroyed the whole city. That's why most people here think that a class can't be enough for either samurai or ninja, because it doesn't matter which approach you take there's going to be people disappointed.

I think the thing is that a class needs a theme that is clear and functional from level 1, and that doesn't step on the toes of another class's niche. Some things (like flying, teleporting, sword beams, etc.) are simply high level abilities and "getting those abilities eventually" aren't enough to support a theme for a class.

The other thing is that this game is supposed to support a wide range of different character concepts across a single party, and valid ones are like "I'm a really good archer with no special abilities outside of how the arrows go where I aim them" so you have to put limits on "how gonzo something else could be."

There's certainly room for another option for "decent AC when unarmored" aside from "be a monk" or "have +5 dex" and iaido seems perfect for an archetype but "stopping meteors with your sword" is probably a different game.

[moosher12]

exequiel759 wrote:

Honestly, we don't even need an archetype, we just need the feats. The duelist archetype feels like the perfect place for iaido-themed feats.

That's a good point, and Paizo has added to existing archetypes before.

[Dubious Scholar]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

but "stopping meteors with your sword" is probably a different game.

Barbarian does have Sunder Spell, which can directly attack the effects of a spell to destroy it.

Alternatively... it's probably within scope for Exemplar's Remake the World, but... that's one of the most open-ended level 20 feats in the game.

[Ryangwy]

Easl wrote:

No argument that other classes may have non-melee skills that fit the trope well. However it baffles me that people keep thinking of fighter as 'mono-focused' when it is as good with all the other weapons as the Commander and Ranger and the other martials. Nothing prevents you from taking your specialty in Sword and then swinging a polearm or firing a bow when the need or situation calls for it. It's like saying "Bob has a fruit salad with world class cantaloupe. Charlie has a fruit salad with average cantaloupe. Therefore, Bob can only possibly ever eat cantaloupe." It just does not follow. Bob isn't more limited than Charlie - rather, Charlie is more limited than Bob.

... Because increased proficiency is the Fighter's damage booster? Rogues and barbarians also get all martial weapons, nobody will say the rogue is as good with the greatsword as a barbarian or the barbarian with the shortsword as the rogue because they don't get their damage booster (ok, the barbarian gets it halved) on some weapons that they have full proficiency in.

exequiel759 wrote:

what they want is an anime swordsman that slashes the air to throw shockwaves to their enemies, cut buildings in half with a single slash, and jump to deflect a meteor that could have destroyed the whole city

I'm fairly certain the iconic Japanese sword user that does those things use a greatsword... I do agree that a lot of people have attached things to samurai that don't even match how they're 'properly' used, as a catch-all for 'sword thing in East Asia' (extra funny when the katana, like the longsword for knights, wasn't even their main weapon).

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Ninja type stuff exists in many classes. Monks get wall running and water walking, etc. and can do some of the supernatural agility things. Rogues get a touch of that at high levels, and are fantastic at the assassination angle. I think Kineticist actually touches on some of the more magic ninja stuff, if you want someone who fights by chaining fireballs into faces and such.

The specific niche that's missing (and that probably needs a whole class to accomodate) is 'I cast magic to breathe fire/turn into a giant/summon a frog behind you/create illusions/teleport and you're so distracted by that I stab you extra good' which is arguably what the folklore ninja is at the core. That's genuinely unreplicable ATM; of the three classes that want to strike and magic, Magus and Summoner want to do it simultaneously to add the damage together and Warpriest/battle harbinger are entirely about buffing.

[moosher12]

Ryangwy wrote:

The specific niche that's missing (and that probably needs a whole class to accomodate) is 'I cast magic to breathe fire/turn into a giant/summon a frog behind you/create illusions/teleport and you're so distracted by that I stab you extra good' which is arguably what the folklore ninja is at the core. That's genuinely unreplicable ATM; of the three classes that want to strike and magic, Magus and Summoner want to do it simultaneously to add the damage together and Warpriest/battle harbinger are entirely about buffing.

Pretty much this. More folks need to try to actually build out a folkloric ninja from levels 1-20. Helped a player try to build one up to level 9. It barely made it, and that was with a very generous version of free archetype where archetypes don't require you to buy 3 archetypes before getting a new archetype. But folks should challenge themselves to build a ninja without any optional or home rules by actually building the character on a character sheet. You'll find that you're making significant concessions on large swathes of the fantasy no matter what you do.