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She's proud of her but isn't trying to get into her business; Nocticula's done pretty good on her own getting to where she is so Sarenrae's giving her room.
Keep in mind that Nocticula, despite being called the Redeemer Queen, is not a goddess of redemption. She's about midnight, exiles, and artists. Redemption is often a sought-after goal for exiles or maligned artists in her faith, but she doesn't really step on Sarenrae's toes there.
And that said, ANY redemption is good in Sarenrae's eyes. Doesn't matter to her at all if the catalyst for any redemption came from her, her faithful, or something else entirely.
Keep in mind that Nocticula, despite being called the Redeemer Queen, is not a goddess of redemption.
LOLWUT?
Everything I've ever read about her seems to read as though she is a goddess of redemption.
Though that does explain why I wasn't permitted to take her as a patron deity of my Redeemer champion (alignment conflicts back in the day).
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The goddess of self-redemption on your own terms vs. going around redeeming people to your own standards. Nocticula's about self-perception more than external approval.
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Keep in mind that Nocticula, despite being called the Redeemer Queen, is not a goddess of redemption.LOLWUT?
Everything I've ever read about her seems to read as though she is a goddess of redemption.
Though that does explain why I wasn't permitted to take her as a patron deity of my Redeemer champion (alignment conflicts back in the day).
Redemption is for sure a part of her faith, and the new rules make it possible (finally) to have redeemers of Nocticula, but yeah. For every deity we list 3 to 4 areas of concern, and "redemption" is not on Nocticula's list of those areas of concern.
Sarenrae: healing, honest redemption, the sun
Nocticula: artists, exiles, midnight
It's interesting though how many people assume she IS a full-on redemption deity, simply because of the word "redeemer" in her title. This sort of thing doesn't seem to happen with any other deity as far as I can tell. Like... Asmodeus is the "Prince of Darkness" but he's not a god of royalty or darkness (he's contracts, oppression, pride, and tyranny). And Desna's the "Song of the Spheres" but not a godess of song or singing (she's dreams, luck, stars, and travelers).
Worshipers of Asmodeus are still often associatd with royalty or darkness though, and there's plenty of song-related shenangians going on in Desna's faith. A faith isn't limited to only the themes in a deity's Areas of Concern, after all.
That all said, if I had a time machine and know now what I know today, I would have set up Nocticula's new nickname to be "The Exile Queen" or "The Midnight Queen" or something like that, and not change a single thing of the rest of her (she'd still be redempton-adjacent as she is now, just wouldn't have as distracting a nickname).
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Keep in mind that Nocticula, despite being called the Redeemer Queen, is not a goddess of redemption.LOLWUT?
Everything I've ever read about her seems to read as though she is a goddess of redemption.
Though that does explain why I wasn't permitted to take her as a patron deity of my Redeemer champion (alignment conflicts back in the day).
I mean...
Looking at her description on Archives, it does explicitly call out her differing view of "redemption" mostly just being not doing bad stuff anymore so it doesn't hurt you. Something tells me the people/demons she's harmed don't feel she's very redeemed.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMO, Sarenrae, alongside Desna, should be more worried about something else... in the future...
Zon-Shelyn is the divine reunion of Shelyn the Eternal Rose and her estranged brother, the Midnight Lord Zon-Kuthon. Together, the siblings represent the concepts of overcoming suffering through art, finding beauty in strange and unusual places, and reunion with lost loved ones.
As a reminder, Shelyn went missing after the Gap in search of her brother, while Sarenrae and Desna remain active. Back in Pathfinder, Shelyn formed a trouple with Sarenrae and Desna and even had their own pantheon called the Radiant Prism. Zon-Kuthon was also a mortal enemy of both Sarenrae and Desna, which didn't change in the latest edition. Fast forward in Starfinder and I... don't think either are pleased to see their consort "merging" with their nemesis. While Sarenrae and Desna may understand Shelyn's idea, I wouldn't be surprised if Zon-Shelyn churches are luring Shelyn's followers and slowly corrupting them :O
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IMO, Sarenrae, alongside Desna, should be more worried about something else... in the future...
Zon-Shelyn is the divine reunion of Shelyn the Eternal Rose and her estranged brother, the Midnight Lord Zon-Kuthon. Together, the siblings represent the concepts of overcoming suffering through art, finding beauty in strange and unusual places, and reunion with lost loved ones.As a reminder, Shelyn went missing after the Gap in search of her brother, while Sarenrae and Desna remain active. Back in Pathfinder, Shelyn formed a trouple with Sarenrae and Desna and even had their own pantheon called the Radiant Prism. Zon-Kuthon was also a mortal enemy of both Sarenrae and Desna, which didn't change in the latest edition. Fast forward in Starfinder and I... don't think either are pleased to see their consort "merging" with their nemesis. While Sarenrae and Desna may understand Shelyn's idea, I wouldn't be surprised if Zon-Shelyn churches are luring Shelyn's followers and slowly corrupting them :O
And as an additional reminder... Starfinder and Pathifnder are separate games with separate stories. The Gap is our construction to keep the games apart, so that one team doesn't have to be an expert in the other's constant changing canon. The Zon-Shelyn stuff is Starfinder lore, not Pathfinder lore. We might decide to "set up" some stuff in Starfinder in Pathifnder, but it's not required.
I know that the Gap is your "reset button", but... you know full well that not everyone forgot about it, right :p ? There are pre-Gap stuff, like the Golarion Survivor Human heritage.
Then again, deities can move on to other things as time goes on. I could say the same with how outer planes gradually adopted technology instead of keeping their realms "traditional".
BTW, I keep thinking that Nethys cast a forbidden spell that caused Golarion to vanish. I mean, where's Nethys in Starfinder now, huh ;) ?
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Honestly I feel like Sarenrae and Desna would be happy for Shelyn that her long quest to save her brother "worked". I mean it's not the ideal outcome of getting Dou-Bral back, but it could have worked out way, way worse than it did.
It might make the triad odd or maybe that isn't a thing by that point anymore, but "the siblings reuiniting in an act of love to banish a great evil" doesn't seem like the kind of thing Sarenrae and Desna are going to be super upset about.
BTW, I keep thinking that Nethys cast a forbidden spell that caused Golarion to vanish. I mean, where's Nethys in Starfinder now, huh ;) ?
"Nethys found some new magic and tried it out" is as good an explanation as any lol. It's certainly something he would do.
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"Nethys found some new magic and tried it out" is as good an explanation as any lol. It's certainly something he would do.
Hey guys look what I can-
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I know that the Gap is your "reset button", but... you know full well that not everyone forgot about it, right :p ? There are pre-Gap stuff, like the Golarion Survivor Human heritage.
Then again, deities can move on to other things as time goes on. I could say the same with how outer planes gradually adopted technology instead of keeping their realms "traditional".
BTW, I keep thinking that Nethys cast a forbidden spell that caused Golarion to vanish. I mean, where's Nethys in Starfinder now, huh ;) ?
It's not so much a reset button as it is a work-flow management barrier. Its' tough enough juggling one campaign setting's worth of lore, but perhaps more importantly... the Gap also serves (at least for us, internally) as a reason to not fall into the diminishing notion that all of Pathfinder is nothing more than a prequel whose stories always have to set up Starfinder stuff, or the restrictive notion that all of Starfinder has to make sure that it carries forward things from Pathfinder and can't do anything new. Keeping the two campaigns separate allows each of the (also separate) teams who work on those games and settings more freedom to tell their stories.
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Nocticula: artists, exiles, midnight
It's interesting though how many people assume she IS a full-on redemption deity, simply because of the word "redeemer" in her title.
Hmm... Redeem.
So - she royally insists that you pay for the art that you use.
Honestly I feel like Sarenrae and Desna would be happy for Shelyn that her long quest to save her brother "worked". I mean it's not the ideal outcome of getting Dou-Bral back, but it could have worked out way, way worse than it did.
It might make the triad odd or maybe that isn't a thing by that point anymore, but "the siblings reuiniting in an act of love to banish a great evil" doesn't seem like the kind of thing Sarenrae and Desna are going to be super upset about.
I would believe you if Zon-Kuthon was redeemed, in the same manner as Nocticula... but that didn't happen. Shelyn didn't purify her brother and atone for his sins; she instead embraced part of his portfolio.
"Nethys found some new magic and tried it out" is as good an explanation as any lol. It's certainly something he would do.
Well, what else could make an entire planet vanish AND make everyone, outerworldly beings and deities included, either forget about Golarion or not being able to bring the planet back, let alone know what happened?
It's "my" explanation, sure, but it's not a weird one either :p
As Mr. Jacobs said, while both Path and Starfinder are kept separated for both narrative and gameplay reasons, both settings are still connected with puzzle pieces left to be assembled.
Then again, Paizo could tinker with multiverses and make it like Marvel, where the 2099 timeline is often kept apart from the Classic or Ultimate storylines XD
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We do already have canon alternate timelines in both Starfinder and Pathfinder. A lot of the time themed spells refer to them. There might be a fun precog character in there. Someone who zooped over from pathfinder to starfinder.
"no no no you don't get it, nocticula is a good person now, trust me"
"What do you MEAN rovagug disappeared with the planet?"
"Oh I know what happened in [Year]. It was when umm... uhh.."
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I would believe you if Zon-Kuthon was redeemed, in the same manner as Nocticula... but that didn't happen. Shelyn didn't purify her brother and atone for his sins; she instead embraced part of his portfolio.Honestly I feel like Sarenrae and Desna would be happy for Shelyn that her long quest to save her brother "worked". I mean it's not the ideal outcome of getting Dou-Bral back, but it could have worked out way, way worse than it did.
It might make the triad odd or maybe that isn't a thing by that point anymore, but "the siblings reuiniting in an act of love to banish a great evil" doesn't seem like the kind of thing Sarenrae and Desna are going to be super upset about.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... I won't stand for this Zon-Shelyn slander! Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn merged because they both sacrificed themselves trying to save the other at the same time. How is that not a redemption of Zon-Kuthon? Certainly, Shelyn embraced part of his portfolio, but he embraced part of hers. Redemption isn't always from a high-handed and lofty position without getting dirty to meet someone where they're at.
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Quick question somewhat related to the original question: Has any Demon Lord stepped up to replace Nocticula as the Demon Queen of Lust and Succubi?
Whoa, whoa, whoa... I won't stand for this Zon-Shelyn slander! Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn merged because they both sacrificed themselves trying to save the other at the same time. How is that not a redemption of Zon-Kuthon? Certainly, Shelyn embraced part of his portfolio, but he embraced part of hers. Redemption isn't always from a high-handed and lofty position without getting dirty to meet someone where they're at.
Zon-Kuthon needed saving? Really?
Even ignoring the non-statically linked continuities and alternate timelines, deities and even just demons have such a weird relationship with identity that you can't really rely on "facts". There could be a new Nocticula, and number of equally valid ones, some sort of time loop, a split soul, a Piccolo good/evil split, an imposter, an entity formed from outdated lore, Nocticula being infested or forgetting herself, etc. etc.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa... I won't stand for this Zon-Shelyn slander! Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn merged because they both sacrificed themselves trying to save the other at the same time. How is that not a redemption of Zon-Kuthon? Certainly, Shelyn embraced part of his portfolio, but he embraced part of hers. Redemption isn't always from a high-handed and lofty position without getting dirty to meet someone where they're at.Zon-Kuthon needed saving? Really?
Well, once he sacrificed himself for her, yes, so "at the same time" might not be exactly right.
Quick question somewhat related to the original question: Has any Demon Lord stepped up to replace Nocticula as the Demon Queen of Lust and Succubi?Shamira might be the next in line, but we haven't done much to expand on this yet.
Honestly, I was a little disappointed that she was not listed in Divine Mysteries.
And that she was not listed in the following expanded list of deities and similar powerful entities
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We do already have canon alternate timelines in both Starfinder and Pathfinder. A lot of the time themed spells refer to them. There might be a fun precog character in there. Someone who zooped over from pathfinder to starfinder.
"no no no you don't get it, nocticula is a good person now, trust me"
"What do you MEAN rovagug disappeared with the planet?"
"Oh I know what happened in [Year]. It was when umm... uhh.."
The other way around might be great too. Especially for a SF's "Golarion expert" who will have to reconcile what he took as undisputable historical facts with PF's actual reality.