Arcanist or Sorcerer? Advantages of sorcerer..?


Advice


So, I want to try a full arcane caster, Everyone loves them so but I barely ever played full casters, Mostly stuck to 6th tier casters... But I'v narrowed it down to 2 classes, Arcanist and Sorcerer. Both seem great in different ways.

I love the Arcanists versatility with casting spontaneously from their prepared spells and being able to add more spells to their book in order to have more options, Plus Quick Study letting them swap a prepared spell for another in their book is great!

Sorcerer seems nice too, Full spontaneous with more casts per day which is nice, And they got their full list of spells known castable at any time, Though they know fewer spells so are more limited....

Both classes seem interesting in different ways, But I feel like Sorcerer falls behind a bit... o.. I wanted to ask, What are the advantages of Sorcerer? Are you a Sorcerer fan? If so what brings you to sorcerer over the other full arcane casters? Tell me why Sorcerers are the best full arcane caster! Please?


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Sorcerers do have the advantages you already noted, spells per day and full spells known always available, as well as access to sorcerer archetypes, arcana, and wild blooded bloodlines. Arcanists can steal some of these by multiclassing and the bloodline development exploit, but that is at the cost of delayed spell casting advancement.

Sorcerers are awesome for their relative simplicity in playing, so it is a great class for first-time full caster players. Don't have to worry about preparing spells (decision paralysis or "wait everyone, I need time to prepare that"), no extra points resource to keep track of (except per day uses of powers), and only have a single key ability for spellcasting and powers.

Arcanists have limited preparation without Quick Study, have to keep track of arcane reservoir points (along with the consume spells/magic items changes), and use INT for spellcasting and CHA for many exploits. Arcanists can also be more limited by campaign design. Like wizards, they require access to spells to make best use of their spellbooks. Consume magic items exploit requires the items to consume (wands, scrolls, potions, or staves). If these are of limited availability during the campaign, the class is weakened relative to a sorcerer.

Arcanists can definitely step on the toes of sorcerers, especially once they clarified runestones to be usable by them to get more spell slots. Sorcerers can make good use of pages of spell knowledge, and can UMD very effectively (SAD focus on CHA), easily using scrolls and wands to expand their versatility. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done a detailed cost analysis of sorcerers, wizards, and arcanists based on expected item usage over the course of a campaign. Regardless, it often comes down to preferred play style or flavor.


Arcanists are a little more ability dependent than sorcerers. A sorcerer could dump intelligence without much trouble. But an arcanist has to make some hard choices if he wants to dump charisma. Dumping charisma is viable, but it also locks off some options from your character and lowers the amount of spells you can consume per day to get back reservoir points.


it may be my play style - but I find Arcanists to be superior to Sorcerers, the Arcana abilities, combined with a larger number of spells known make it a better class in my opinion. but I've never had an issue with knowing what spells to learn - the list is generally pretty simple.


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I think a sorcerer is a great first choice for a full caster. You chose solid, all-around spells that you can use every day and just let loose.

Human: you get the 1 additional spell known FCB.
Half-elf: you get the above FCB plus you can cast Paragon Surge.
Kitsune: magic tail, and your FCB gives +1/4 DC to enchantments

Bloodlines

Arcane: familiar or bonded object
Astral: quicken 1/day without increasing the spell level
etc.

Lots of good choices (and lots of poor choices...).

The Exchange

The easiest comparison is a sorcerer to a blood arcanist. Sorcerer advantages:

1. Simplicity. You know the spells you know.
2. You can cast two more spells per day per level.
3. Bloodline spells - you have one more spell available each day than the arcanist. (Arcanist prepares max 5 of each level, sorcerer knows max 5 +1 bloodline of each level).
4. Bloodline feats - Extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19
5. Single Attribute Dependency - as Melkiador said an arcanist can choose not to invest in Charsima. But it's going to limit your useful exploit choices.

Spoiler:
For my playstyle I do prefer the arcanist. I like the flexibility and all the little things the arcanist can do. (Like using metamagic either spontaneously or preparing with metamagic to avoid the increased casting time.)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One other consideration: The expected level range for the campaign.

A sorcerer will probably be better suited for a campaign that will not reach high-level play (above 10th-12th, depending on other factors). It will start stronger at low-level play and (as mentioned) it's a more straightforward class to manage.

If the campaign is expected to go up to 13th+ levels, then an arcanist will probably be better suited. The ability to learn a wider selection of spells and change out what's available at the start of an adventuring day can be extremely useful for many situations that occur in high-level play. You will need to spend more effort to manage the increased complexity and options, however.

Ultimately, both the arcanist and sorcerer are strong classes. The sorcerer essentially has a higher floor, but the arcanist can have a higher ceiling.


On paper it seems that both classes have the same number of spells that they can cast at each level. But the sorcerer gets bloodline spells, and many races get extra spells known as an FCB. This can give the up to 3 extra spells per spell level they can choose from. This still does not match the arcanist’s ability to change his spells daily, it does lessen the impact of having a limited number of spells. In this I would still give the advantage to the arcainist.

In number of spells cast per day the sorcerer obviously comes out ahead. But the arcainist has more than just spells to use, they also get exploits. Exploits give the arcanist options that the sorcerer does not have. In some cases, it can make spells more powerful and harder to resist. Being able to raise the caster level or DC of the save by 2 (with Potent Magic) is something the sorcerer cannot match. Being able to teleport 10 feet per level as a 5-foot step is incredible. In some cases, the exploit can give the arcainist an attack.

The sorcerer does get bloodline powers and arcana but a blood arcainist can gain those by sacrificing 4 exploits and magical supremacy. The blood arcainist will still have 6 exploits at 20th level. The sorcerer does get bloodline feats but only 3 of them. The feat Extra Arcanist Exploit makes each exploit worth a feat. So that puts the blood arcanist up 3 for comparison. Are the extra spells a sorcerer can cast better than having potent magic, dimensional slide, and school understanding admixture (intense spells and versatile evocation). You do not need to take the blood arcainist archetype, but it makes it easier to compare the powers of the two classes.

The last thing to look at is the stats. On the surface it would seem the sorcerer has the advantage on this. But consider how useful CHA is besides casting spells or for class features. Both classes get 2 skill points plus INT bonus per level. That means the arcainist will have a lot of skills, where the sorcerer will have very few. If you are ok with playing a character with no skills the advantage is with the sorcerer, but if you want any skills they come out fairly even.

The main advantage to the arcainist is flexibility. Not only can they change out their spells daily they have a lot of options for the player to choose from. About the only choice the sorcerer gets is what bloodline they take. Blood Arcainist and School Savant archetypes gives you the option of playing something very similar to a wizard or sorcerer but still having some flexibility to customize your character with exploits.


Quote:
Consume Spells (Su): At 1st level, an arcanist can expend an available arcanist spell slot as a move action, making it unavailable for the rest of the day, just as if she had used it to cast a spell. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

This is the other reason that charisma is important for an arcanist

There is also an exploit, consume magic items, that has a similar limitation, but that is of limited value, and requires choosing that exploit.

The Exchange

Melkiador wrote:
Quote:
Consume Spells (Su): At 1st level, an arcanist can expend an available arcanist spell slot as a move action, making it unavailable for the rest of the day, just as if she had used it to cast a spell. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

This is the other reason that charisma is important for an arcanist

There is also an exploit, consume magic items, that has a similar limitation, but that is of limited value, and requires choosing that exploit.

If I had to point at one thing while choosing between arcanist and sorcerer, I would point at the ability score dependencies. And how much your preferred playstyle weights the ability score dependencies.

If you prefer a save-or-lose or blaster caster, the sorcerer is almost always your better choice. Because you only need Charisma and you can focus on that stat with your point-buy, level increases, and equipment. Higher DCs, even with the arcanist's arcane reservoir.

If you like a utility caster or buffer, then DCs aren't as important. So it's OK that you are going to need to invest in both Intelligence and Charisma to really get the most out of the arcanist's potential. And that's on top of the freedom to memorize different spells every day.


Consume spells has a minimum of 1, so even in you dump CHA you can still use it at least once. Overusing this ability will mean you have even fewer spells. It is probably better using Consume spells only when you really need the arcane points.

When it comes to saving throws that is where the arcanist has the advantage. With Potent Magic the arcanist can increase either the caster level or the saving throws DC by 2. That is equal to the bonus provided by spell focus and greater spell focus and stacks with those feats. Because it uses a limited resource it you probably cannot use it on all you spell at higher level, but when you do use it, it is very good.

The need for CHA is going to depend on your build. For some having a decent CHA is going to be needed, but in other cases you do not need CHA.


Having more uses of consumes means that you could consume more lower level spell slots that you may not have needed anyway, to power your higher level spell slots. Dumping charisma completely means that you won’t be able to improve the number even with buffs.

7 Cha = 1 use
8 Cha = 1 use
9 Cha = 1 use
10 Cha = 1 use
11 Cha = 1 use
12 Cha = 1 use
13 Cha = 1 use.


Having a decent CHA will be useful to an Arcanist but it does not need to be super high. They have more stat requirements than a sorcerer or wizard, but they are nowhere near as bad as a monk. The sorcerer is in the same boat if they want a decent number of skill points.

A Peri-Blooded Aasimar would work well for an Arcanist. Not only do they get a bonus to both INT and CHA they get a bonus to spellcraft and knowledge planes. The point buy on the campaign will also affect this. On a low point buy the need for more diverse stats hurts more than a higher point buy. If the game is using a 25 point buy (my preference), this will not be that big of a deal. On a 15 point buy it will be painful.

What it really comes down to is what the player wants out of the character. Either a arcanist or sorcerer could work for what the OP wants.


Frankly, I do not think Arcanists require any charisma at all and can safely dump the entire ability score. If Fiendish Proboscis is not banned, the Arcanist effectively has an unlimited arcane reservoir simply by draining himself. Otherwise, a single Extra Reservoir feat largely suffices to improve an arcane pool at the very early levels where you would not wish to reduce your spell slots regardless. And the single spell slot you can sacrifice would later further improve the matter, as would a Consume Magic Items exploit in a pinch. The Arcanist does obtain some benefits from a charisma score of 14, but it is rather unneeded.

The Arcanist can also obtain the bloodline arcana and all the bloodline powers of a Sorcerer bloodline through the Blood Arcanist archetype. By and large, the Arcanist is simply superior to the Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype notwithstanding).

The advantages of the Sorcerer are the additional spells per day, wildblooded bloodline options (Sylvan is particularly powerful in this respect, especially when paired with a Boon Companion feat and when it is empowered with magics of the Sorcerer class using the Share Spells feature), or archetypes (such as Razmiran Priest). The Mnemonic Vestment robe and Paragon Surge spell of the Half-Elf race (typically used to obtain an Expanded Arcana feat to obtain a new spell known whenever required) are also often used to narrow some of the gap with the Arcanist. The Sorcerer also has more spells known than the Arcanist has spells prepared, but given that the Arcanist can change his spells prepared with ease, the Arcanist still has it much better on this front.


The Sorcerer, Arcanist, and Wizard are all fundamentally more similar than they are different. They share the same spell list, and their niche in the Pathfinder game system is having the best spells. All of them have access to incredibly powerful class features to support them in this niche and either specialize in certain kinds of magic or be broad generalists who are good at everything.

Between the three, there is really only one area where one of them objectively outclasses the others, and that's with regards to the Wizard's faster spell progression. Sorcerer and Arcanist are still really great classes, but the Wizard just feels like he's always a step ahead and like you're playing a higher-level character than you otherwise would have been. It's not the end of the world, and if you do end up playing to level 18+ the problem does eventually go away, but it is very noticeable for the majority of a campaign.

One of the biggest advantages the Sorcerer has over the Arcanist is spell slots. The Arcanist is really tight on spell slots, and is only made even tighter by its reliance on Consume Spells to fuel its hunger for reservoir. A 6th level Arcanist with 22 Intelligence has 13 spell slots total, while the Sorcerer with 22 Charisma has 19 spell slots. And that's before Consume Spells is being used. The Arcanist is a class that needs more careful resource management, both in terms of spell slots and reservoir. The Sorcerer has a much deeper well to draw on, and can be a lot more liberal in his spellcasting. This will be the most prominent playstyle difference between the two.

Quick Study is something that is absolutely integral to the Arcanist class. It's central to their playstyle, and the class really wouldn't function without it since their default number of spells prepared is way too limited. But the ability to swap around what spells you can cast midday is not unique to the Arcanist; it's just the class relies on it to function. Both Wizard and Sorcerer have comparable options if they want them, they just don't strictly need them like the Arcanist does. Wizards have the Fast Study arcane discovery that allows them to prepare spells in only one minute, while Sorcerers have the Ring of Spell Knowledge and Mnemonic Vestments that allow them to add spells to their list of spells known temporarily simply by owning a scroll. All three of these classes have options, with different advantages and limitations, to swap around their spell availability midday. Which is better is more a matter of personal preference and what kind of playstyle you want.

The last thing I'll cover with respect to the Sorcerer is bloodlines. There just aren't that many top-tier bloodlines. Most are one-trick-ponies with one or two interesting powers and a couple of decent bloodline spells, but a lot of inconsequential filler that won't matter much to your character. You can use bloodline mutations to swap out unwanted powers, but there's no way to replace a bad arcana or trade out some bad bloodline spells. However, if you don't want to worry about these things and just want a good generic bloodline, you can't go wrong with Arcane.


The Wizard only feels like he is a step ahead on odd levels. On even levels, the Arcanist typically feels superior to both the Wizard and Sorcerer as a best-of-both-worlds spellcaster. But on odd levels (half of the game), the Wizard is indeed very much superior.

In addition, the 6th level Arcanist with 22 intelligence would have 15 spell slots, not 13. It would be effectively 16 spell slots if the Arcanist also has an arcane bond, such as through the Blood Arcanist archetype or even just a bloodline development exploit or the Eldritch Heritage feat. If you prefer, you could also have your character be at an older age for the improvement to mental ability scores and as such a 6th level arcanist could possess from 24 to 26 intelligence, which would also ensure more spell slots in addition to higher spell DCs. The Arcanist could also purchase scrolls (or even scribe them by obtaining the Scribe Scroll feat, perhaps through the Item Crafting exploit) and activate them in a pinch.


Tom Sampson wrote:
The Wizard only feels like he is a step ahead on odd levels. On even levels, the Arcanist typically feels superior to both the Wizard and Sorcerer as a best-of-both-worlds spellcaster

A 6th level Wizard can have four different 3rd level spells and six different 2nd level spells at their disposal. An Arcanist gets one and two respectively; you are so far behind the Wizard here that it's not even funny. In combat a Wizard will often just have the right spell prepared and can cast them immediately, while your Arcanist will have to take a move action to pull out your spellbook, a full-round action to quick study, and then two rounds later you can cast the right spell. Most of the time you won't have the luxury of doing that, and will just have to cast whatever you have prepared right now. Even when you do have time to Quick Study, very often you are just going to be studying a staple spell that a Wizard would have prepared or a Sorcerer would have learned. In these cases, you're waiting 2 rounds and spending valuable action economy and reservoir just to match the baseline of Wizard or Sorcerer. There are many common circumstances where Quick Study is the worst of both worlds. And when we specifically compare against the vast repertoire of a 6th level Wizard, you're going to be the worse far more often than you are the better of both worlds.

Outside of combat, a Wizard can just leave slots empty to be prepared later in the day, something they can afford to do because they have more spells slots than you to begin with and don't need to consume spells. With Fast Study, it doesn't even take them very long.

As to the comparison with Sorcerer, if the Sorcerer really wants to prioritize spell flexibility above all else they can afford a Ring of Spell Knowledge type II by 6th level, giving them essentially a better version of Quick Study for 1st and 2nd level spells. The Arcanist is only at an advantage with 3rd level spells, of which he gets only three per day, and is just plain outclassed at 1st and 2nd level spell slots. The Arcanist definitely has his advantages here; he's got much better flexibility at his highest spell level, and the Sorcerer spent a lot of money to replicate a better version of Quick Study. But that is the reality of the situation, any Sorcerer willing to splurge has access to a better version of Quick Study.

Quick Study is still a fantastically powerful ability, but people act like it's a swift action with no daily resource cost and no equipment considerations. It's a full-round action that requires daily resources and requires you to have your spellbook in hand. That last part is particularly dangerous if your GM is the kind who thinks sunder is a fair tactic to use against PC's. Not every table will be like that, but if your GM is the kind who doesn't tolerate using plot armor actively as a shield (I'm playing with one right now; he's a tough but fair GM who has told us he will punish us if we start metagaming the fact that we are the protagonists of the story) then you really don't want to use Quick Study in combat.

Tom Sampson wrote:
In addition, the 6th level Arcanist with 22 intelligence would have 15 spell slots, not 13

I must have transposed some lines when reading off the tables. In any case, my point still stands that there is a large spell slot difference here that is exacerbated by consume spells.

Tom Sampson wrote:
you could also have your character be at an older age for the improvement to mental ability scores and as such a 6th level arcanist could possess from 24 to 26 intelligence

Age categories are typically not appropriate for PC's, but the same applies to Wizard and Sorcerer.

Tom Sampson wrote:
The Arcanist could also purchase scrolls (or even scribe them by obtaining the Scribe Scroll feat, perhaps through the Item Crafting exploit) and activate them in a pinch.

Scrolls and other consumables are great choices for any spellcaster. As far as crafting goes, Sorcerer is at a bit of a disadvantage due to being Charisma-based but not by much. Wizard is the advantaged one here, getting Scribe Scroll for free as a bonus feat.


Dasrak wrote:


One of the biggest advantages the Sorcerer has over the Arcanist is spell slots. The Arcanist is really tight on spell slots, and is only made even tighter by its reliance on Consume Spells to fuel its hunger for reservoir. A 6th level Arcanist with 22 Intelligence has 13 spell slots total, while the Sorcerer with 22 Charisma has 19 spell slots.

I'm assuming some of those slots are reserved for bloodline spells?

I'm still unpacking how the sorcerer's spells per day work vs their spells known.

The books say a sorcerer's spells known are not affected by their charisma.

Example: At level 12, sorcerers have a single 6th level spell they know, and have enough spell slots they can use it three times (before modifiers), correct?


KarmicPlaneswalker wrote:
Dasrak wrote:


One of the biggest advantages the Sorcerer has over the Arcanist is spell slots. The Arcanist is really tight on spell slots, and is only made even tighter by its reliance on Consume Spells to fuel its hunger for reservoir. A 6th level Arcanist with 22 Intelligence has 13 spell slots total, while the Sorcerer with 22 Charisma has 19 spell slots.

I'm assuming some of those slots are reserved for bloodline spells?

I'm still unpacking how the sorcerer's spells per day work vs their spells known.

The books say a sorcerer's spells known are not affected by their charisma.

Example: At level 12, sorcerers have a single 6th level spell they know, and have enough spell slots they can use it three times (before modifiers), correct?

Your example is correct. However, your assumption is incorrect. Sorcerers simply add the bloodline spells to their pool of spells known, so at level 12 the sorcerer knows 25 spells (not counting 9 cantrips); 5 are the bloodline spells fixed by bloodline, and the other 20 are chosen from sorcerer spell list. The bloodline spells are NOT like the bonus spell slots of specialist wizards or cleric domains.

Sorcerer spells known can be increased by bloodline adding spells, rings or pages of spell knowledge, the expanded arcana feat, or FCB.


I'd consider your party composition, also. After talking with my GM, I recently switched from Sorcerer to Arcanist, because the party was hurting for Knowledge skills. Switching to arcanist solved that problem.

(My sorcerer PC merged minds with an ancient wizard, so, thematically, (sorcerer + wizard)/2 = arcanist.)

Because I already had a lot of experience with an arcanist from a different game, when I switched my sorc over to my new arcanist, I decided to not choose Quick Study. Honestly, I haven't really missed it. I did use it a few times with my first arcanist, but not having it with my sorcerer is fine so long as I pick a variety of types of spells. Actually, what I do miss the most on this new arcanist is the Dimensional Slide exploit. A free level-dependent teleport that's part of a move action is very useful.

Exploits bring up another point that I just thought of: Sorcerers have some really cool, thematic bloodline powers, but an arcanist gets to pick and choose their exploits, and that flexibility is very nice.

One downside to the arcanist is the confusion over whether they can use magic items designed for spontaneous or prepared casters. I know that, often, an official ruling on specific scenarios has been officially decided (such as whether arcanists use pearls of power or runestones), but it really needs to be defined in the class description. I've heard a lot of talk about how it's "obvious" that arcanists use items specific to one or the other, but then there's always scenarios that pop up where the item doesn't make sense for an arcanist, limiting their selection.

Ultimately, though, when deciding between sorcerers and arcanists, I prefer wizards. :)


Arcanist is the most forgiving of the 3 options. You can change your spells known every day and even swap out mid-combat with the quick study exploit. You have the fewest spells per day, but the greatest ability to use every spell slot.

Sorcerers have a lot of spells per day and their options often allow them to do things that are not easily replicated otherwise, like boosting damage by 1 to 3 per damage die. Their spells known is limiting but there are ways to add a few more. They are easy to use in play because their options are so locked once chosen. Conversely, they are the most stressful when gaining levels, because you are “stuck” with those choices.

Wizard can get almost as many spells per day as the sorcerer, but their odds of getting to use most of those prepared spells per day is not great. A wizard might prepare two dispel magics that never get used, or he may prepare two but end up wanting to use five by the end of the day. Basically, the class is going to be “wasteful” a lot of the time. You can get around this a bit with items and by not preparing all of your spells slots at the beginning of the day, but those options carry their own costs and downsides. The wizard is easy to level up, but basically has to deal with the sorcerer’s spell choosing anxiety every single adventuring day.


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I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...


One thing that should also be considered is will the character being taking any archetypes. This affects the arcanist more than it does the sorcerer. For the most part the archetypes for the sorcerer are not that good and do not really alter how the class works. The archetypes for the arcanist on the other hand can fundamentally alter how the class works.

The blood arcanist as has already been mentioned allows the character to function very similar to a sorcerer. The school savant allows you to gain the specialty school features of a wizard. The elemental master gives the character some non-spell attacks. Both the school savant and elemental master also give the arcanist the ability to prepare 1 extra spell per spell level. The unlettered arcanist uses the witch spell list instead of the wizard spell list. Other archetypes offer even more unusual abilities.

Before choosing between arcanist and sorcerer I would take a look at the arcanist archetypes to see if any of them look like something you want to play.


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Dasrak wrote:
Tom Sampson wrote:
The Wizard only feels like he is a step ahead on odd levels. On even levels, the Arcanist typically feels superior to both the Wizard and Sorcerer as a best-of-both-worlds spellcaster
A 6th level Wizard can have four different 3rd level spells and six different 2nd level spells at their disposal. An Arcanist gets one and two respectively; you are so far behind the Wizard here that it's not even funny. In combat a Wizard will often just have the right spell prepared and can cast them immediately, while your Arcanist will have to take a move action to pull out your spellbook, a full-round action to quick study, and then two rounds later you can cast the right spell. Most of the time you won't have the luxury of doing that, and will just have to cast whatever you have prepared right now. Even when you do have time to Quick Study, very often you are just going to be studying a staple spell that a Wizard would have prepared or a Sorcerer would have learned. In these cases, you're waiting 2 rounds and spending valuable action economy and reservoir just to match the baseline of Wizard or Sorcerer. There are many common circumstances where Quick Study is the worst of both worlds. And when we specifically compare against the vast repertoire of a 6th level Wizard, you're going to be the worse far more often than you are the better of both worlds.

This is a bizarrely idealized circumstance for the Wizard. In your scenario, the Wizard is evidently entering the encounter with all of his 3rd level spells intact, all of them are different spells, one of them will happen to be the right spell to solve the encounter (and thus whichever spell(s) that turn out to be ineffective will not weigh him down), the Arcanist's 3rd-level spell will happen to be invalid, 2nd-level and 1st-level spells will not suffice to address the encounter at hand, the Arcanist didn't simply enter combat with his spellbook in hand, and while the Arcanist uses his move action to draw his spellbook he will not be using his standard action to cast something useful. Realistically speaking the Wizard will not have all 3 of his 3rd level spells during an important encounter and runs a risk of having prepared the wrong spell in which case 2 rounds will not even be enough for a Wizard to remedy this issue. The guessing game is the primary difficulty of Wizards.

Meanwhile the Arcanist can either attempt to switch his spell with the Quick Study exploit in combat or he can simply use his 3rd level slot(s) to cast a 2nd level spell if need be, which will often also prove effective. If the Arcanist has an arcane bond, he can also spontaneously cast any spell within his spellbook regardless of whether or not it is one of his spells prepared. If the party scouted out the foes or dangers ahead of time, the Arcanist can even quietly use quick study to switch his spell to better prepare for the encounter by taking 6 seconds (1 round) of time before combat has even begun. If the Arcanist has the School Savant archetype, he can even have an additional spell prepared for every spell level he is capable of casting.

Quote:
Outside of combat, a Wizard can just leave slots empty to be prepared later in the day, something they can afford to do because they have more spells slots than you to begin with and don't need to consume spells. With Fast Study, it doesn't even take them very long.

This is indeed a strength of the Wizard and a good decision, but not really an advantage compared to the Arcanist, who could also leave spells unprepared in order to perform partial spell preparation later in the day while remaining even less burdened by the issues of leaving a spell unprepared because he can use all his spell slots regardless.

Quote:
As to the comparison with Sorcerer, if the Sorcerer really wants to prioritize spell flexibility above all else they can afford a Ring of Spell Knowledge type II by 6th level, giving them essentially a better version of Quick Study for 1st and 2nd level spells. The Arcanist is only at an advantage with 3rd level spells, of which he gets only three per day, and is just plain outclassed at 1st and 2nd level spell slots. The Arcanist definitely has his advantages here; he's got much better flexibility at his highest spell level, and the Sorcerer spent a lot of money to replicate a better version of Quick Study. But that is the reality of the situation, any Sorcerer willing to splurge has access to a better version of Quick Study.

I believe we've discussed this before. I would not call it a better version of Quick Study because the Sorcerer is ultimately limited at 4th level spells when using the Ring of Spell Knowledge and will typically be unable to cast his 2 highest spell levels with a ring and only fall behind further from level 14 onwards and would need to wear additional rings if he wishes to flexibly cast more than one spell at a time in this fashion, unlike the Arcanist who can simply swap all his spells. All this wealth expended will also put the Sorcerer behind when it is time to purchase a lesser metamagic rod for the quicken spell metamagic. What you recommend are certainly good purchases but the Arcanist is nevertheless significantly advantaged here even when the Sorcerer is using them and the Arcanist needs far fewer system mastery tricks to be so advantaged.

Quote:
Age categories are typically not appropriate for PC's, but the same applies to Wizard and Sorcerer.

Age categories and their bonuses to mental ability scores are fully intended for use by PCs. That is likely a major reason why they carry such increasingly vicious penalties to physical ability scores. They are simply unpopular because of those penalties. Allow me to cite the relevant rules on age from Pathfinder Core:

Quote:

You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. [emphasis added] If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. Alternatively, roll the dice indicated for your class on Table: Random Starting Ages and add the result to the minimum age of adulthood for your race to determine how old your character is.

With age, a character's physical ability scores decrease and his mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character's ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way.

When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his maximum age and record the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his maximum age dies of old age sometime during the following year.

The maximum ages are for player characters. Most people in the world at large die from pestilence, accidents, infections, or violence before getting to venerable age.

You are of course correct that the same applies to the Wizard and Sorcerer but so long as you have enough or more than enough spells you are fine either way for your encounters. That is also a major reason why this sort of comparison is increasingly less important at higher levels where there are more than enough spells to address all your needs regardless, assuming you are not simply in the habit of trying to solve all your problems with only your highest levels of spells, anyway.

At any rate, playing a character with all the added frailties of old age might not be the most fun for someone new to spellcasters.

KarmicPlaneswalker wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
One of the biggest advantages the Sorcerer has over the Arcanist is spell slots. The Arcanist is really tight on spell slots, and is only made even tighter by its reliance on Consume Spells to fuel its hunger for reservoir. A 6th level Arcanist with 22 Intelligence has 13 spell slots total, while the Sorcerer with 22 Charisma has 19 spell slots.

I'm assuming some of those slots are reserved for bloodline spells?

I'm still unpacking how the sorcerer's spells per day work vs their spells known.

The books say a sorcerer's spells known are not affected by their charisma.

Example: At level 12, sorcerers have a single 6th level spell they know, and have enough spell slots they can use it three times (before modifiers), correct?

Spells per day and spells known are wholly separate mechanics. The Sorcerer does not have any spell slots reserved for bloodline spells. Bloodline spells are just bonus spells known that can be cast with any spell slot. The Sorcerer's charisma score indeed does not affect their spells known, only their spells per day. And yes, a 12th level Sorcerer only has a single 6th level spell known. Oracles are more advantaged in this respect, as they obtain their mystery spells at the same level they obtain a higher level of spells known.

Merellin wrote:
I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...

Ah, noted. I would honestly just recommend playing an Arcanist with at least 20 int then. It's the easiest to use. The Blood Arcanist archetype will already enable you to get ordinary Sorcerer bloodlines if you want, in which case the Arcane bloodline is a decent choice, using an arcane bond as an Arcanist would treat the contents of their spellbook(s) as the spells they know, meaning you could use your arcane bond to spontaneously cast any spell in your spellbook even if you haven't prepared it. Incidentally, the additional spells known bestowed by the arcane bloodline's 9th level power ("New Arcana") would for an Arcanist instead become additional spells prepared of that level. ("Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare.")

The Arcanist has two major advantages for spellcasting: First, it can change its spell selection daily and even change a spell mid-day, perhaps even mid-combat, with a single full round action by using the Quick Study exploit. Second, it can expend arcane reservoir points to raise a spell's caster level or spell DC, especially when using the Potent Magic exploit. These advantages tend to make the Arcanist the easier and more effective choice.


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Merellin wrote:
I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...

I guess it’s just the nature of the discussion. Hard to discuss the users of this spell list without bringing in all 3 options. Honestly, all three are surprisingly well balanced against each other. For this discussion, I prefer sorcerer for blasting and arcanist for utility.

Also, as Mysterious Stranger pointed out, arcanist archetypes are pretty significant. They can really change the way the class plays.


Melkiador wrote:
Merellin wrote:
I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...

I guess it’s just the nature of the discussion. Hard to discuss the users of this spell list without bringing in all 3 options. Honestly, all three are surprisingly well balanced against each other. For this discussion, I prefer sorcerer for blasting and arcanist for utility.

Also, as Mysterious Stranger pointed out, arcanist archetypes are pretty significant. They can really change the way the class plays.

Agreed, I have found that the Exploiter Wizard, with the Admixture school, is better than an Arcanist, and on par or better than a sorcerer.


To be clear, I was saying why Wizard did work its way into the conversation. I was not suggesting that it should be part of the conversation. The thread has now been clarified to not be about wizards.


Okay, So... I'v been reading the replies and pondering and I feel like a full spontaneous caster would be fun to try, But as I considered this I noticed, Hey, The Psychic class is also sponatenous! It looks quite interesting too and my party never had one before (We had two sorcerers in the past...)

So.. Umm.. What if we change the pondering to Sorcerer or Psychic? They are a bit more similar, But whats the advantages of one over the other?


What besides a full spontaneous caster do you want in a character. That is going to be more important in choosing a class than which class is "better".

Which is better or more powerful is a very subjective question. A lot of it will depend on the player as much as the class. If you as a player do not use a class feature well, it becomes less important to the question of what is better. For example, I had a player playing a paladin who totally ignored his spells. For that player switching to an archetype that traded away his spell casting was better even though what he gained was less powerful. While you are not playing a paladin and obviously do not want to trade away spells the example is still valid.

If you are open to a psychic, are you open to other full spontaneous casters. An oracle is also a full spontaneous caster and with the right mystery they can get access to many spells from other list that can allow them to be very different from a cleric.


Oracle is a class I wanna try at some point, But not quite yet, I have played 2 Clerics (Only real full casters I played before, One to level 6 and one to level 7) And I am currently playing a Warpriest in one campaign, So I dont wanna dip into the Cleric spell list again quite so soon.

What I want... Hmm... I like doing damage, I like having some crowd control, I like having some utility... But again, I'm not good at full casters as I only really played 2 and both where cleriucs who focused on buffing and healing when not swinging weapons so I dont know what I want from a full arcane/psychic full caster quite yet.

I played a couple of unchained summoners but mostly focused on Pit spells outside fighting with my eidolon, So I want to try more!


There is a psychic bloodline for the sorcerer. A lot of people feel that it is a better choice than the actual psychic. Unfortunately, Paizo started getting way too conservative with their design goals in later books. They were so afraid of creating overpowered options, that everything became pre-nerfed.


Merellin wrote:
I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...
Merellin wrote:
So.. Umm.. What if we change the pondering to Sorcerer or Psychic? They are a bit more similar, But whats the advantages of one over the other?

???

Okay, sure. But when I start talking about the Witch, don't give me any lip.


One thing about the sorcerer is that they are often easier to play. Having a small list of spells, you can cast as needed obviously has some drawbacks, but it also has some advantages especially for a player that does not know the spell list well. With a sorcerer the player can focus on knowing his spells and not worry about the others. That makes it easier to understand all your spells and when best to use them. The arcanist or other class that prepares spells has more spells to keep track of and must figure out which ones will be useful for what the party is going up against. The sorcerer usually chooses his spells based on being able to adapt them to multiple circumstances. The individual spell may not be optimal but usually can get the job done.

In all honesty if this is your first time playing a full arcane caster the sorcerer may be a better fit. They have less choices than the arcanist but requires less system mastery. You know ahead what your abilities will be so can focus on figuring out how to use them to the best advantage.

If you did want to try an oracle an oracle of the heavens with the blackened curse can play very differently than a cleric or war priest. There are enough cleric blasting spells and revelations for that mystery you can create a very good blaster. If you take the ability to cast inflict spells spontaneously you can even go for a bad touch blasting build. Oracles get to decide whether they cast cure or inflict spells, and their alignment has nothing to do with it.


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Merellin wrote:
So.. Umm.. What if we change the pondering to Sorcerer or Psychic? They are a bit more similar, But whats the advantages of one over the other?
Merellin wrote:
What I want... Hmm... I like doing damage, I like having some crowd control, I like having some utility... But again, I'm not good at full casters as I only really played 2 and both where cleriucs who focused on buffing and healing when not swinging weapons so I dont know what I want from a full arcane/psychic full caster quite yet.

Personally, I would recommend "getting your feet wet" with a sorcerer before trying the psychic (or oracle). Thematically, it's probably easier to design and play a sorcerer around a concept that fits well in a particular campaign (often just by choosing an appropriate bloodline). Complexity-wise, both the psychic and oracle have more "fiddly bits" (phrenic amplifications for psychic, revelations for oracle) than a sorcerer; essentially, it's a similar conversation as sorcerer vs. arcanist (higher floor vs. possibly higher ceiling).


I grok do u wrote:


Your example is correct. However, your assumption is incorrect. Sorcerers simply add the bloodline spells to their pool of spells known, so at level 12 the sorcerer knows 25 spells (not counting 9 cantrips); 5 are the bloodline spells fixed by bloodline, and the other 20 are chosen from sorcerer spell list. The bloodline spells are NOT like the bonus spell slots of specialist wizards or cleric domains.
Sorcerer spells known can be increased by bloodline adding spells, rings or pages of spell knowledge, the expanded arcana feat, or FCB.

That confirmed a few things for me. Thank you for the clarification.


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Since the player has already played 2 clerics and a warpriest the oracle would be the easiest for him to play. Although the clerics may have focused on buffing and healing, they still had access to their entire spell list, so the player is probably at least familiar with the spell list. By 12th level an oracle of heavens with the blackened curse will have 16 spells from just his mystery and curse. If he plays a human oracle and puts the favored class bonus into extra spells known he will still have 12 0 level, 7 1st level, 7 2nd level, 6 3rd level, 5 4th level, 3 5th level and 1 6th level for spells he can choose. He can also have 3 offensive revelations (spray of shooting stars, interstellar cold, and dweller in darkness) in addition to awesome display. His color spray should be able to affect creatures as if they were 7 HD less, so it will knock out, blind, and stun creatures of up to 9HD, and blind up to 12HD.

But the player wants to try a spontaneous arcane caster. Since he is looking for damage, crowd control, and utility my suggestion would be to play a school savant arcanist with the admixture as his school. Intense spell will add damage to all his evocation spells; Versatile evocation will allow him to change the damage type to overcome resistances or exploit vulnerabilities. Being able to prepare an extra evocation spell per spell level will be very useful. Most evocation spells are focused on damage, but it does have some crowd control spells as well. Wall of Force is a very good crowd control spell.

The arcanist gives him the ability to boost either his caster level or the DC of the saving throw. Both can help increase the damage he deals with his spells. For feats he can take spell focus and greater spell focus evocation to boost the DC of the saving throw. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration are also something he will want especially as he levels up. If he goes for an elf he could (with potent magic) boost the caster level by 8 to overcome spell resistance. Or he could boost the save on his evocation by 4 and the caster level would still be 6 higher than normal to overcome spell resistance.

Since the player has already experienced at playing a prepared caster that should minimize the problems many inexperienced players with having to memorize spells.


Melkiador wrote:
Merellin wrote:
I dont know why everyone is bringing up wizards, Wizard was never on the table, I'm pondering Arcanist or Sorcerer, No interest in Wizard...

I guess it’s just the nature of the discussion. Hard to discuss the users of this spell list without bringing in all 3 options. Honestly, all three are surprisingly well balanced against each other. For this discussion, I prefer sorcerer for blasting and arcanist for utility.

Also, as Mysterious Stranger pointed out, arcanist archetypes are pretty significant. They can really change the way the class plays.

I bring up the Wizard - specifically the Exploiter - because it basically is an Arcanist, but on Steroids.


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As several of you will remember, this took quite a bit of work. And it might actually be of some use here.

Casters Compared

It presents the strengths & weaknesses of the various classes. Sure it's unavoidably subjective, but the collective brain trust that went into this has hopefully resulting in broadly useful values.

In terms of a choice between a Sorcerer and an Arcanist, I do think that sheer number of spells looms large. A few representative levels:

5th level
Sorcerer: 4 2nd, 6 1st
Arcanist: 3 2nd, 4 1st

8th level
Sorcerer: 3 4th, 5 3rd
Arcanist: 2 4th, 4 3rd

13th level
Sorcerer: 4 6th, 6 5th
Arcanist: 3 6th, 4 5th

An arcanist has 70-75% of the top two spell levels to cast/day, compared with a sorcerer.

I suggest that you consider the type of campaigns that your group has. If you commonly have 3+ encounters/day then I'd recommend the sorcerer more highly. If you usually have 1 or 2 encounters/day then I think either one will work for you.


If you are looking to have an easier time or do damage with spells, I would recommend the Sorcerer over the Psychic. For damaging spells, the Orc bloodline together with the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation would give the Sorcerer quite an advantage.


If he is going to go for a sorcerer focused on doing damage with his spells Orc bloodline is a poor choice. The bloodline gives you the Orc subtype including darkvision, but also gives you light sensitivity. Most of the bloodline power are designed to boost your melee combat, which most sorcerers avoid. The bonus vs fear and latter immunity to fear is not bad, but those are usually will save which is the sorcerer’s good save. Half the bloodline spells also do not do any damage.

The draconic bloodline would be a better choice. They get the same bonus to damage on the spells but are not restricted to fire. The bloodline powers are more useful especially the breath weapon and wings. The bloodline spells are not damaging spells but are for the most part useful. The main concern is getting all three form of the dragon spells. The capstone is also much better.

The solar bloodline is also a good choice especially in an undead heavy campaign. It gives a bit of healing and condition removal which is always useful. The bloodline spells in a normal campaign are ok, but in a campaign with a lot of undead they are incredibly powerful.

The Exchange

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If he is going to go for a sorcerer focused on doing damage with his spells Orc bloodline is a poor choice. The bloodline gives you the Orc subtype including darkvision, but also gives you light sensitivity. Most of the bloodline power are designed to boost your melee combat, which most sorcerers avoid. The bonus vs fear and latter immunity to fear is not bad, but those are usually will save which is the sorcerer’s good save. Half the bloodline spells also do not do any damage.

The draconic bloodline would be a better choice. They get the same bonus to damage on the spells but are not restricted to fire. . .

I think you may be misremembering how those bloodlines work. Draconic's bloodline arcana isn't restricted to fire but you do have to choose one energy type when you take the bloodline and the bonus damage only applies to that type. The entire reason for choosing the Orc bloodline is for its arcana bonus damage, which applies to every damage type (all energy types and physical damage).


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If he is going to go for a sorcerer focused on doing damage with his spells Orc bloodline is a poor choice. The bloodline gives you the Orc subtype including darkvision, but also gives you light sensitivity. Most of the bloodline power are designed to boost your melee combat, which most sorcerers avoid. The bonus vs fear and latter immunity to fear is not bad, but those are usually will save which is the sorcerer’s good save. Half the bloodline spells also do not do any damage.

The draconic bloodline would be a better choice. They get the same bonus to damage on the spells but are not restricted to fire. The bloodline powers are more useful especially the breath weapon and wings. The bloodline spells are not damaging spells but are for the most part useful. The main concern is getting all three form of the dragon spells. The capstone is also much better.

The solar bloodline is also a good choice especially in an undead heavy campaign. It gives a bit of healing and condition removal which is always useful. The bloodline spells in a normal campaign are ok, but in a campaign with a lot of undead they are incredibly powerful.

I beg to differ, and am surprised at your contrary recommendation. I strongly believe the Orc bloodline to be the superior option. Allow me to explain why. The Orc bloodline obtains its bonus to all damaging spells, whereas the Draconic bloodline must choose a single element (and the Solar bloodline necessarily selects for fire). This is a major advantage of the Orc bloodline over both of the options you mentioned.

The negatives you list are also minor (aside from the bloodline spells, perhaps). Light sensitivity is a minor issue as it only renders the Sorcerer dazzled (which is a -1 penalty to attack rolls) and only when in bright light. For a Sorcerer, this sort of penalty is unlikely to prove a significant impediment, especially as most damaging spells do not even use attack rolls to begin with, and the Fearless bloodline power will even remove light sensitivity at level 9 regardless. As for the bloodline powers having a melee focus, you should simply trade away the 1st-level bloodline power, 7th-level bloodline feat, and 9th-level bloodline power (keeping the 3rd-level bloodline power, as it is quite decent) for all three bloodline mutations to further improve damaging spells. Ergo, the melee focus of a bloodline power you are choosing to trade away does not actually matter, and the bloodlines you recommend would similarly trade away their bloodline powers.

As such, the Orc bloodline's benefit here is simple: all your damaging spells are considerably more effective, regardless of element, whereas the bloodlines you recommend only provide the very same bonus for a single element, rendering them more circumstantial. The Orc bloodline also provides darkvision and fear immunity which the other bloodlines do not.


That may be true, but I would still advise against the orc bloodline. The extra damage is good, but I think not having any decent bloodline powers, only 1 good bloodline feat, and half your bloodline spells being poor choices is not worth the 1 point per die.

The draconic bloodline will give him a breath weapon, energy resistance and natural armor bonus, wings at will with no duration, 3 good feats, and better bloodline spells. The only weak bloodline power is claws which will be traded out for Blood Havoc anyways. His damage with spells of his energy type will match the orc bloodline and all others will only be at most 1 HP per level lower. I would much rather play a sorcerer that can fly above his enemies and rain down spells, than play a sorcerer with a high STR that becomes large.

Draconic gives you immunity to sleep and paralysis in addition to your energy type. It also gives blind sense 60 ft. The Draconic capstone is way better.


The Orc bloodline does have a decent bloodline power: Fearless (the 3rd-level bloodline power). The armor bonus is good, the fear immunity is better, and the removal of light sensitivity is minor but still pleasant to have. You are right that the bloodline feat selection is worse, but if you are trading your first bloodline feat away for a bloodline mutation, the second bloodline feat arrives at level 11 and the third at level 15 where the Sorcerer really does not need any help, and Great Fortitude and Toughness are both serviceable feats. The capstone is often irrelevant but at any rate the Orc Sorcerer could easily trade it for an alternate capstone, such as Flawless Mind for a +8 bonus to charisma or Unique Bloodline for a second bloodline's arcana and 1st, 3rd, and 9th level powers.

As for the Draconic bloodline, I would regard Dragon Resistances as its one good bloodline power. The breath weapon is only usable once per day and best traded, just as with the Orc bloodline. The wings are indeed useful, more than the Orc's power of giants, but they arrive so late that flight is already a solved issue by this point. And the Draconic bloodline capstone I would also trade away the same as the Orc's for either Flawless Mind or Unique Bloodline. By level 20 you should already have good answers to sleep and paralysis regardless, the blindsense of 60 feet also loses nearly all of its value when you could have already cast Echolocation for 40 feet of blindsight starting at level 10, and at these levels there are other ways of obtaining fire immunity in a pinch through the Sorcerer spell list if need be. The aforementioned alternate capstones would be far superior.

It is not for nothing that I find the Orc bloodline to be the better option.


For what it's worth, since you asked about the Psychic, take a look at the alternative spell components and the UnderCasting mechanic. Psychics get screwed if they get affected by adverse emotional effects (fear being the most common), but if you trust in your good Will saves and/or don't deal with these effects often, then basically all of your magic is Still and Silent . . . Ultimate sneaky caster!!!

UnderCasting gives you some nice spell versatility, and theoretically expands your total spells known a fair bit. Not saying this is superior to the sorcerer, but nice options.

Of course, if you want nearly the best of both (if not moreso) then the Psychic bloodline has already been mentioned.


I just got my ability to post back after a long period when I could not.

I think the consensus here is that the arcanist wins for sheer power, if not by much. I would add that sorcerers, where some bloodlines give powers and arcana that are very powerful, lend themselves to some particular specialised very powerful builds that other classes can't replicate.

Examples are the blaster builds or the Kitsune enchanter build.

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