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So, this thread isn't meant to be "here's what I want the Remastered Psychic to be able to do". Rather, it is things about the pre-Master Psychic that the remaster needs to clarify for the sake of reduced headaches:
1) How the Psychic Spellcasting feature interacts with the manipulate trait.
2) Psychic has a number of class feats that force others to make saving throws (Psi Burst, Violent Unleash, Psi Catastrophy, Cranial Detonation) but don't specify whether it uses Class or Spell for the DC.
If anyone can think of any others, feel free to say something.
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For #1, my suspicion is that the remastered Psychic won't interact with the manipulate trait at all by default, though I'd also like the class to get Subtle Spell so that they can use their spells with no gestures or sounds. If the spellshape can be used as a free action and applied to amped cantrips while their psyche's unleashed, even better!
I'll add a couple more:
3) The Psychic needs to redefine its Refocusing, since right now it relies on the premaster assumption that casters can only regain 1 expended Focus Point in-between each use by default.
4) Amping needs to be better-defined, since choosing whether or not to amp a cantrip isn't any sort of action with any traits, yet it works like a spellshape action due to how it prevents the use of other spellshapes. I'd quite like amping to be defined as a spellshape free action, which would among other things prevent the Magus from amping imaginary weapon as part of a Spellstrike.
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What are you asking to have clarified in number 1? Psychic spellcasting never did anything special about the Manipulate trait. Any spells with somatic or material components still had somatic components for a psychic, and still had Manipulate.
Wedding singer voice: “Things that could have been brought to my attention LAST YEAR!!!”
The hopes I had have been doused by seeing that the upper-level feats are more or less the same. They still have a feat giving them more low-level slots and they still have a feat the removes the refocus improvement's condition that only used focus points to amp. While it's possible we got slot improvements and kept that feat, I'm skeptical. And while I do expect some tweak to the refocus wording, it's still similar enough to work with the existing feat.
The hopes I had have been doused by seeing that the upper-level feats are more or less the same. They still have a feat giving them more low-level slots and they still have a feat the removes the refocus improvement's condition that only used focus points to amp. While it's possible we got slot improvements and kept that feat, I'm skeptical. And while I do expect some tweak to the refocus wording, it's still similar enough to work with the existing feat.
If you're referring to the preview images on the store page, I wonder if those are just placeholders from the original, non-remastered version. On one of those pages, they still have alignment noted for various characters. I assume those would be removed as part of the remastering of this book.
Perhaps it's just my copium for also being disappointed when I saw that the high level Psychic feats were exactly the same...
The hopes I had have been doused by seeing that the upper-level feats are more or less the same. They still have a feat giving them more low-level slots and they still have a feat the removes the refocus improvement's condition that only used focus points to amp. While it's possible we got slot improvements and kept that feat, I'm skeptical. And while I do expect some tweak to the refocus wording, it's still similar enough to work with the existing feat.If you're referring to the preview images on the store page, I wonder if those are just placeholders from the original, non-remastered version. On one of those pages, they still have alignment noted for various characters. I assume those would be removed as part of the remastering of this book.
Perhaps it's just my copium for also being disappointed when I saw that the high level Psychic feats were exactly the same...
Oh, really? That's good to know. I will readjust back to my previous mild hope, since alignment being gone is a big part of what the remaster needs to do.
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Why does everyone want to suggest not using Focus Points, a system Paizo made to handle stuff like this? Monks use it instead of Ki and so should Psychics use Focus points instead of their own resource. That would make Psychics overpowered if they could freely cast AMPs without a resource though. There be no reason to use spell slots outside of some rare niche cases.
You would need to restrict them to their current 2 slots or reduce them to 1 slot of magic or worse make them a bound-caster.
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If you're referring to the preview images on the store page, I wonder if those are just placeholders from the original, non-remastered version. On one of those pages, they still have alignment noted for various characters. I assume those would be removed as part of the remastering of this book.
Perhaps it's just my copium for also being disappointed when I saw that the high level Psychic feats were exactly the same...
Yes, definitely placeholders in my opinion. Several of the feats on the preview images are listing pre-Remaster spell schools (evocation, transmutation, etc.) as keywords. So wait and see.
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...
4) Amping needs to be better-defined, since choosing whether or not to amp a cantrip isn't any sort of action with any traits, yet it works like a spellshape action due to how it prevents the use of other spellshapes. I'd quite like amping to be defined as a spellshape free action, which would among other things prevent the Magus from amping imaginary weapon as part of a Spellstrike.
I think that would be an elegant solution of Magus imaginary weapon problem.
In general, I'd like Paizo to reuse mechanics they invented already - so use Focus points for as many "once per 10 minutes" abilities as possible, use "flourish" trait for action compressing abilities (like Animist "Step + Sustain"), and so on.
These mechanics were created for a reason and using them would just make system more straightforward and less breakable.
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Actually... with the changes to Focus Point regeneration... does the Psychic need to be under the restrictions it was in the pre-Master?
(i.e. Can only recover multiple points if they used Focus points only on Amped Cantrips)
Heck, maybe the Psychic should start play with the full 3 points instead of just 2?
What are you asking to have clarified in number 1? Psychic spellcasting never did anything special about the Manipulate trait. Any spells with somatic or material components still had somatic components for a psychic, and still had Manipulate.
Because verbal, somatic, and material components do not exist anymore, instead, individual spells are given the manipulate trait.
Also, I've never understood how Psychic Spellcasting then interacts with Attacks of Opportunity, so I feel like some clarity of how it effects spellcasting mechanically would be helpful.
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It says so in the key terms for amps:
Amps are special thoughtforms that modify the properties of your psi cantrips. You can apply an amp only to a psi cantrip, which is called the amped cantrip. Applying an amp to a psi cantrip costs 1 Focus Point and is part of the actions needed to Cast the Spell. The singular focus required to amp a psi cantrip means that unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip, and you can't apply both an amp and a metamagic ability to a cantrip at the same time. If both an amp and the amped cantrip deal damage of the same type, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Feats with the amp trait provide different amps you can apply to psi cantrips in place of their normal amps. If an amp has its own effect, its level is the same as the amped cantrip's.
In fairness, I've seen a lot of players miss this bit entirely, so you're by no means the only one. Definitely cause for clarifying how amps work, in my opinion.
Actually... with the changes to Focus Point regeneration... does the Psychic need to be under the restrictions it was in the pre-Master?
I personally don't think so; I think the original restriction only made sense at a time when focus spells were far more restricted and recovering additional Focus Points was considered exceptionally powerful. This may tread into "here's what I want the remastered Psychic to do" territory, but I think it would be fine for the Psychic to just recover their entire focus pool when they Refocus from level 1.
Also, I've never understood how Psychic Spellcasting then interacts with Attacks of Opportunity, so I feel like some clarity of how it effects spellcasting mechanically would be helpful.Completely as normal? It changes nothing in relation to triggers of reactions. They don't react to speech.
This is correct. Psychic spellcasting has never done anything to affect the triggers of Attack of Opportunity/Reactive Strike. Manipulate spells for anyone else are still Manipulate for psychic (under both premaster and remaster rules). Same for Concentrate, if you bring Disruptive Stance into it.
To try to sum it up:
Premaster effects
Verbal Component with Concentrate -> emotion component, still with concentrate but no speech
Somatic component with manipulate -> still somatic components with Manipulate
Material Component with Manipulate and an item and free hand requirement -> Somatic components with Manipulate
Remaster effects
All spells now require speech unless they are subtle. This requirement is presumably removed, but the Concentrate trait stays on any spell that has it. There is something to mechanically clarify here
The Material/Somatic divide in Manipulate spells is gone, so substituting somatic for material doesn't do anything. The Manipulate trait was never affected before and wouldn't be now.
I've always viewed the idea of the manipulate trait as leaving ones self open (for an attack). When viewed that way, whether it represents material or somatic components, or even just mental focus, it makes sense (to me) that psychic spellcasting would still leave one open to Attacks of Opportunity.
For psychic casting I imagine the manipulate can be something like holding the back of your hands to your forehead as you concentrate really hard (thwack!).
I always think of the Conceal Spell manipulate gesture as the Bill Clinton thumb gesture - innocuous, awkward in a fight (thwack!), appropriate in social situations.
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It says so in the key terms for amps:
Amps are special thoughtforms that modify the properties of your psi cantrips. You can apply an amp only to a psi cantrip, which is called the amped cantrip. Applying an amp to a psi cantrip costs 1 Focus Point and is part of the actions needed to Cast the Spell. The singular focus required to amp a psi cantrip means that unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip, and you can't apply both an amp and a metamagic ability to a cantrip at the same time. If both an amp and the amped cantrip deal damage of the same type, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Feats with the amp trait provide different amps you can apply to psi cantrips in place of their normal amps. If an amp has its own effect, its level is the same as the amped cantrip's.In fairness, I've seen a lot of players miss this bit entirely, so you're by no means the only one. Definitely cause for clarifying how amps work, in my opinion.
Probably doesn't help that it looks like Archive of Nethys doesn't mention any of this.
==EDIT==
Wow. My Perception score is atrocious.
For the record, please remember that flagging is for breaking our forum guidelines. Disagreeing is not against our forum guidelines, so the posts that were flagged for "Breaking Other Guidelines" when they were just plainly stating rules have been cleared. However, the posts with direct shouting at each other have been removed. Shouting at each other is personal harassment, and I determine this both by the use of larger text, bold, all caps, and the use of the literal word "shouting." Anything that can be considered yelling if you were IRL basically. Please keep things civil, you all! And remember disagreeing is not inherently bad!
You're right. I should know better than this.
I'm sorry.
Probably doesn't help that it looks like Archive of Nethys doesn't mention any of this.
It does include that text. Go to the Psychic class and look at the Key Terms right under Key Attributes and Hit Points. Under Amp, you'll see "you can't apply both an amp and a metamagic ability to a cantrip at the same time" in its text.
I've always viewed the idea of the manipulate trait as leaving ones self open (for an attack). When viewed that way, whether it represents material or somatic components, or even just mental focus, it makes sense (to me) that psychic spellcasting would still leave one open to Attacks of Opportunity.
I think that it's definitely a gesture, not just intense concentration for 2 reasons:
1. That matches the description in spellcasting rules and in psychic spellcasting.
2. You *also* have mechanics that constrain movement and add a flat check to Manipulate actions.
I've always viewed the idea of the manipulate trait as leaving ones self open (for an attack). When viewed that way, whether it represents material or somatic components, or even just mental focus, it makes sense (to me) that psychic spellcasting would still leave one open to Attacks of Opportunity.I think that it's definitely a gesture, not just intense concentration for 2 reasons:
1. That matches the description in spellcasting rules and in psychic spellcasting.
2. You *also* have mechanics that constrain movement and add a flat check to Manipulate actions.
Ultimately it doesn't quite matter how we envision it as long as we acknowledge that some spells (most really) have the manipulate trait, and psychic spell casting doesn't do anything to get rid of it. Pyschic spell casting substituted verbal and somatic components, but remaster spells don't have that. They have auditory and manipulate. Which honestly works just fine.
Ultimately it doesn't quite matter how we envision it as long as we acknowledge that some spells (most really) have the manipulate trait, and psychic spell casting doesn't do anything to get rid of it. Pyschic spell casting substituted verbal and somatic components, but remaster spells don't have that. They have auditory and manipulate. Which honestly works just fine.I've always viewed the idea of the manipulate trait as leaving ones self open (for an attack). When viewed that way, whether it represents material or somatic components, or even just mental focus, it makes sense (to me) that psychic spellcasting would still leave one open to Attacks of Opportunity.I think that it's definitely a gesture, not just intense concentration for 2 reasons:
1. That matches the description in spellcasting rules and in psychic spellcasting.
2. You *also* have mechanics that constrain movement and add a flat check to Manipulate actions.
Concentrate and Manipulate. Concentrate replaced verbal and Manipulate replaced Somatic.
Even drawing a weapon is an interact action with the manipulate trait which activates Reactive Strike.
Manipulate is some kind of movement that opens you up to attack.
I don't think concentrate replaces verbal components.
Auditory specifically mentions needing to be able to speak, while concentrate talks about only mental focus.
But really it doesn't matter to the overall discussion.
*Although there is a problem with the auditory trait that it doesn't sufficiently differentiate between needing to be able to speak, needing the target to hear something, and something that generates sound waves that have an impact regardless of ability to be heard.
Examples, sounds waves causing damage. A spell that exerts control on someone (command), and casting a spell (speaking).
Verbal Components are what gave Casting a spell the Concentrate trait, premaster. Spells with only Material and/or Somatic worked fine while Raging (for a main reason it was relevant).
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So Psychic's Spellcasting does nothing right now or something? I am a bit lost.
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It probably ((this isn't made explicit in remaster errata or anything, but is the result of applying the same things it used to do)) still removes the need to speak when casting, while not removing any traits from the spellcasting action.
That matters if you're underwater or swallowed whole or something, and speaking an incanatation would cause you to run out of air.
It Definitely doesn't remove Concentrate or Manipulate, because it never did.
I don't think concentrate replaces verbal components.
Auditory specifically mentions needing to be able to speak, while concentrate talks about only mental focus.
But really it doesn't matter to the overall discussion.
*Although there is a problem with the auditory trait that it doesn't sufficiently differentiate between needing to be able to speak, needing the target to hear something, and something that generates sound waves that have an impact regardless of ability to be heard.
Examples, sounds waves causing damage. A spell that exerts control on someone (command), and casting a spell (speaking).
Verbal components used to have the concentrate trait. So when they took all the verbal components off spells, they replaced them with the concentrate trait.
Auditory trait generally means you need to be able to make sound. I can see how you thought that was the replacement for verbal, but very few spells have the auditory trait.
Almost every spell (maybe every one) that used to have a verbal component now has the concentrate trait as a replacement.
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The only thing that I really think the remaster took away and needs to replace for the psychic is the niche of being able to cast multiple focus spells in more than one encounter per day, right from level one.
This is a relatively big problem for the class because it’s not just a refocus boost, it is something that impacted most of the encounters they had in a day that made them different from everyone else. Whatever happens to replace that needs to be something that comes up in encounters frequently if the class itself is going to have a unique play feel. More spell slots, refocus compression, none of that will give the class a signature play experience.
I don’t think we are supposed to focus on the details of what that would be in this thread, but for me this is the one big thing the class really needs to make sure the psychic ports over well to the remastered game.
I don't think concentrate replaces verbal components.
Auditory specifically mentions needing to be able to speak, while concentrate talks about only mental focus.
But really it doesn't matter to the overall discussion.
*Although there is a problem with the auditory trait that it doesn't sufficiently differentiate between needing to be able to speak, needing the target to hear something, and something that generates sound waves that have an impact regardless of ability to be heard.
Examples, sounds waves causing damage. A spell that exerts control on someone (command), and casting a spell (speaking).
Verbal components used to have the concentrate trait. So when they took all the verbal components off spells, they replaced them with the concentrate trait.
Auditory trait generally means you need to be able to make sound. I can see how you thought that was the replacement for verbal, but very few spells have the auditory trait.
Almost every spell (maybe every one) that used to have a verbal component now has the concentrate trait as a replacement.
I still disagree with your conclusion, but it mostly doesn't matter on how the game is run or played (because the remastered spells are relatively clear with their new traits) so I'm just going to drop it.
Auditory as a trait means the caster has to be able to talk AND the target has to be able to hear for the spell to work, but is misused in many spells. Illusory creature, for example has the auditory trait probably because it is capable of making sound, but RAW a deaf creature cannot be affected by an illusory creature. It is a trait GMs have to really think around and is not a good judge of how spell casting works for anyone, much less the psychic.
Auditory as a trait means the caster has to be able to talk AND the target has to be able to hear for the spell to work, but is misused in many spells. Illusory creature, for example has the auditory trait probably because it is capable of making sound, but RAW a deaf creature cannot be affected by an illusory creature. It is a trait GMs have to really think around and is not a good judge of how spell casting works for anyone, much less the psychic.
I agree a little bit, in that the GM has to think about what the spell is doing to determine how sound is involved. And there was one thing I did forget, which is the Sonic trait exist, so stuff that produces sound waves and doesn't care about whether a target can hear is Sonic trait, not auditory.
But Auditory explicitly says:
An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds.
Technically, spell lacking this means you don't actually need to speak to cast the spell. (Actually this is a little complicated, because with the loss of verbal component component call out and spells being reworked you could look at the description on Cast a Spell action, which mentions speech, but we also know that it didn't apply to all spells. It's also more complicated because the Auditory trait could mean you need to speak for a spell to function, or that the target needs to hear it for it to function, or both, and we don't have a good way to determine. I consider this a rough edge of the system, but it doesn't come up that much.)
And while the concentrate trait was placed onto a lot of spells so that other things could interact with it, and it kind of feels like a replacement for verbal components, it doesn't actually requiring making a sound.
Edit: It may just be that any spell lacking the Subtle trait should be assumed to require some sort of speech associated with the casting, but honestly it's altogether unclear [in my opinion] since the loss of the verbal spell component trait.
It's also in my mind, slightly problematic to assume anything without the verbal trait in the old rules should have used Subtle, since Subtle is more also means no manifestations, making it hard to notice. But there were spells that didn't require you to speak, but also had manifestations.
Ultimately is honestly mostly doesn't matter much from a game play standpoint, but it is annoying when I think about it.
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Auditory as a trait means the caster has to be able to talk AND the target has to be able to hear for the spell to work, but is misused in many spells. Illusory creature, for example has the auditory trait probably because it is capable of making sound, but RAW a deaf creature cannot be affected by an illusory creature. It is a trait GMs have to really think around and is not a good judge of how spell casting works for anyone, much less the psychic.I agree a little bit, in that the GM has to think about what the spell is doing to determine how sound is involved. And there was one thing I did forget, which is the Sonic trait exist, so stuff that produces sound waves and doesn't care about whether a target can hear is Sonic trait, not auditory.
But Auditory explicitly says:
An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds.(Actually this is a little complicated, because with the loss of verbal component component call out and spells being reworked you could look at the description on Cast a Spell action, which mentions speech, but we also know that it didn't apply to all spells. It's also more complicated because the Auditory trait could mean you need to speak for a spell to function, or that the target needs to hear it for it to function, or both, and we don't have a good way to determine. I consider this a rough edge of the system, but it doesn't come up that much.)
And while the concentrate trait was placed onto a lot of spells so that other things could interact with it, and it kind of feels like a replacement for verbal components, it doesn't actually requiring making a sound.
Edit: It may just be that any spell lacking the Subtle trait should be assumed to require some sort of speech associated with the casting, but honestly it's altogether unclear [in my...
The requirement to speak incantations was added to ALL spells without the subtle, as a general rule of spellcasting. It is there without any special trait on the spell, now. The remaster totally decoupled Concentrate from the verbal requirement. "So Technically, spell lacking this means you don't actually need to speak to cast the spell" is entirely false.
Casting a spell requires the caster to make gestures and utter incantations, so being unable to speak prevents spellcasting for most casters
Subtle does explicitly remove that requirement. That does not mean that spells that didn't require verbal before should automatically become Subtle. It just means any spells that aren't Subtle require speech for most casters under current rules. Psychic shoukd still be treated as that exception to "most casters", as it is basically their old feature doing exactly the same thing it always did, replacing speech with emotion while not affecting the traits of the spell.
I guess viewing it in that light, we simply lost some spells that used to not require a verbal component but had manifestations (which saddens me but works).
Now we just have a default requirement that all spells require speech to cast, and the subtle trait removes both the required speech and manifestations.
While I had read the update to casting a spell in the description, I guess I was taking it as a very general statement, but I guess I was too mired in the past of wanting to see the verbal component tag that I couldn't take it for what it actually was.
Understanding that, it does clear up how the Auditory trait is supposed to function (it means the target needs to hear you or at least you need to provide speech [that isn't part of casting a spell].
But as previously noted, it seems like the auditory trait has been used in a confusing fashion with some spells like Illusory creature technically being useless against the deaf.
But as previously noted, it seems like the auditory trait has been used in a confusing fashion with some spells like Illusory creature technically being useless against the deaf.
Illusory Creature has an option to speak through the illusion, hence the Auditory trait. It doesn't seem that confusing unless you just look at the traits and don't read through the whole spell. It could be cleared up a bit by moving the Auditory trait to the explanation of speaking through the illusion so it's clear it's dependent on using that feature.
I guess viewing it in that light, we simply lost some spells that used to not require a verbal component but had manifestations (which saddens me but works).
"as if a million non-psychic non-vital-earth spamming casters exhaled, and were instadrowned in the now even more meta pillar of water"
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I still disagree with your conclusion, but it mostly doesn't matter on how the game is run or played (because the remastered spells are relatively clear with their new traits) so I'm just going to drop it.I don't think concentrate replaces verbal components.
Auditory specifically mentions needing to be able to speak, while concentrate talks about only mental focus.
But really it doesn't matter to the overall discussion.
*Although there is a problem with the auditory trait that it doesn't sufficiently differentiate between needing to be able to speak, needing the target to hear something, and something that generates sound waves that have an impact regardless of ability to be heard.
Examples, sounds waves causing damage. A spell that exerts control on someone (command), and casting a spell (speaking).
Verbal components used to have the concentrate trait. So when they took all the verbal components off spells, they replaced them with the concentrate trait.
Auditory trait generally means you need to be able to make sound. I can see how you thought that was the replacement for verbal, but very few spells have the auditory trait.
Almost every spell (maybe every one) that used to have a verbal component now has the concentrate trait as a replacement.
I didn't make a conclusion. I'm stating what they did. They replaced the verbal components with the concentrate trait. I'm assuming they did it because the verbal trait had the concentrate trait. They wanted to keep the concentrate trait on all the spells that had the verbal component beforehand to keep the general idea that spells have a concentrate and manipulate component to their casting to maintain internal consistency with abilities that work off the concentrate or manipulate trait. It was one of the first things I noticed when I was looking at how they changed the verbal and somatic components on spells in the remaster.
Other changes:
1. No more school tags.
2. Spell name changes from magic missile to force barrage. Plenty like that.
3. Removal of alignment tags or damage, all replaced with spirt damage and the holy or unholy trait.
4. Positive energy became vitality. Negative became void.
The addition of the concentrate tag in place of a verbal component was like the above changes. They had to replace it with something, so they took the trait that interacted with verbal tag pre-remaster and applied it to all the spells.
I think you can color the concentrate trait with whatever explanation exists now for how a class cast spells. Might be verbal for a bard or maybe an intense concentration for a wizard or sorc or a prayer for a cleric. I imagine that color element is open-ended.