| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the witch is pretty fun and involved. But it's higher complexity than a sorcerer or remastered oracle without necessarily being stronger even when you apply system mastery. Some folks don't like that. In particular, you have to really think hard about how you use your familiar and it can be counter intuitive.
I wrote most of a guide to playing one but never fully published it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y881LdGvXmUWwjxZrMZBC4XwoD8GS3tOPjaz6S2 8zXY/edit?usp=drivesdk
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The class is highly dependent upon on which hex cantrip + familiar ability you choose.
That single choice will determine your "evergreen" 1A for the entire campaign, and like half of them are just not worth picking or outright trap options.
The biggest issue is that familiars do not have the survivability they need for how short of a range all their specials are. This means you really need to get comfortable with the Dying state, or you don't really benefit from the Remaster's changes that much.
Parties also tend to encounter just enough death effects for the mechanic to be a real problem. You cannot Life Boost a familiar to get back up from that.
By problem, I mean, like actual 1-shot the familiar at any level kind of problem.
Depending on the story / flavor of the PC, that "expected" familiar death can still be okay, but it makes the Witch way more uncertain / fragile of a caster than I expected.
Normally, as the levels go up, PCs can take more hits before they are expected to hit 0.
Level 1 HP math is like, a single crit 1-shots most folk, but by L20 Barbarians can eat like 3 at least. (just talking about HP vs damage math, not other factors)
HP6 classes are an exception to this, they don't really have enough HP growth to escape that curve, or at least not nearly as well as everyone else. Familiars seem to almost fall behind on this curve, and become more fragile. Single fails to AoE spells can one-shot familiars in an 11-20 campaign.
Either way, when it comes to taking damage, Witch doesn't have any room for error at all levels of play.
In conclusion. You are a prepared caster who on paper wants to make a rather specific plan and synergy, but you are the squishiest PC chassis possible, with an even more squishy familiar. Your plans will go wrong, and you'll need to fall back to old reliable all the time.
The remaster also made these class-specific Witch abilities more or less require short as hell range, so you either stay close to benefit from that power, or nerf yourself even more and outrange your own abilities.
.
My advice is to house nerf Resentment to give it a 1 round cooldown per effect you extend.
This makes it so you cannot extend a 1 turn effect forever, but can double the duration of anything.
And no, do not expect a GM to let you extend Grabbed or something like that.
Combine that hex cantrip with the Accursed Staff, and you have a build that works as best it can to deal with the "made of paper" issue. That staff has the power to grant (Rank x2) tHP when foes fail curses.
A Resentment Witch has the only 1A cantrip curse in the system.
Kinda the perfect wielder of that staff, and the benefit fits the exact problem the R:Witch still has. Not going to be a crazy big impact help, but it's the best (non-custom) staff for a Resentment Witch. The spells being non-dice save spells of lower R is also great for a prepared caster who is built for debuffing.
Still incredibly dumb that so many staves cap at like level 14 though. No clue why that is okay.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd say like moderately improved. The class is decent overall but how much value you see from the remaster and mechanics in general depends heavily on how you and your gm handle your familiar and which patron you end up picking.
Certain patrons were significantly improved from their remaster counterparts, or just generally have good hex cantrips, good familiar abilities, or both. Weaker patrons give very little and make you kind of just a generic spellcaster.
Since the big new mechanic is familiar abilities, a lot variability is going to rely on how vulnerable and how flexible your GM is with your familiar's mechanics.
You're never going to be bad, it's PF2 you'll always be okay and witches have some decent feats, but the gap between a resentment witch getting to freewheel with their curse enhancements and like- ... an inscribed witch barely having a power is pretty noticeable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
an inscribed witch barely having a power is pretty noticeable.
Hey now. I resemble that.
For someone coming new to the class without playing pre-Remaster Witch, I would describe the class as reasonable but not a top tier spellcaster.
It is a full 3-slot spellcaster.
No armor though, so it is behind Cleric, Druid, Bard, and a few others in that regard.
It is not a 4-slot caster, so it is behind Wizard, Sorcerer, and Oracle in that regard.
Also, it is a prepared caster - and like Wizard and Magus, Witch has to pay money for knowing more of the spell tradition. So it is behind Druid, Cleric, and Animist in that regard.
What Witch does have going for it is some rather unique and powerful Familiar abilities and some good Focus spells. There are also some really nice feats at early mid-levels.
And they are still a solid spellcaster class. INT-based, so you will have plenty of trained skills.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The witch is no longer worse than the wizard, which was pretty much the case before it was remastered, but it's not as "good" as some (most) of the other caster classes. Some of the class feats (like Cauldron and, IMO, Witch Knife) are really good pickups, even through the MC witch archetype. However, it lacks some of the ways to add "oomph" to the spells that other caster classes get (only a handful of spellshape feats and no Overwhelming Energy).
Like the sorcerer, it gains by being able to pick the spell tradition. As mentioned, the patron hex and familiar ability can have a large effect on "playability." If anything, I think the witch has had more additional patrons published after Player Core than the wizard has had additional schools.
Looking just at the core patrons, it is basically the occult patrons which are safe picks. Everything else requires specific party compositions and strategies to make effective. The occult familiars and hexes just work.
Resentment is definitely the most broken but Shadow and Fortune are perfectly respectable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Witch in my opinion went from being the worst caster in the game, if not the worst class in the game, to an okay caster in the remaster. I do still think the class is a bit weak unless you're going for an extremely strong patron like The Resentment, at which point they're fairly decent, but at least now they have more standout features and more feats worth picking.
People flock to the Resentment patron because that's the most powerful one out of the gate. While I do agree that it's certainly stronger than the Inscribed patron mentioned earlier, it isn't like a Witch becomes worthless if you choose a different patron. To me, the initial patron choice is impactful, but not the all-or-nothing some people make it out to be, whereas with the Animist I do agree that there is only one "good" choice.
TL;DR: If you want power, there's an optimal pick. But flavour picks don't ruin the character.
Familiar still feels squishy and underutilised. It's again a fun flavour, but doesn't add much to the class's power budget. In general, most of the fun of the Witch is in their flavour and vibes, not their actual mechanics (though several hexes are really good).
IMHO, there's a few reasons to pick Witch over Wizard if you want an INT caster:
- You like the flavour more.
- You want a pet.
- You want a non-Arcane spell list.
- You want more one-action options.
Do NOT pick a Witch if:
- You want a battle pet. Take Druid, Inventor, or Summoner instead.
- You want more or more powerful spells.
- You want an "easy" class. Not that it's hard, but like people above said, you have to work against the class's design sometimes (patron picks, familiar options).
I will just add one more bit of advice: The witch is often very friendly if you want to pick up an archetype to expand or supplement the character's concept/functionality/role. This can be MC alchemist to lean into the "Cauldron" witch (alchemical bombs, elixirs, foods, bottled monstrosities, etc. in addition to oils and potions), a MC Int-caster archetype (such as psychic), or herbalist, loremaster, etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my experience plays as a low level Witch it's exactly what it's like a prepared 3 spells per rank prepared caster that uses a familiar in an unusual way.
Familiars in pathfinder are strange creatures because how they can interact with the character thematically and mechanically.
In general, due its dependence to use the master actions during encounters and the lack of a good explanation of what they can and cannot do in exploration and downtime in parallel with the master, usually only get players to take some extra master benefits while keep them in some safe place.
Also, what could happen is that some players may want that familiars act as a subcharacter for roleplay reasons like Finoan does here in these forums as Farien (something perfectly possible once that familiars are inteligent and have skills).
At the same time, familiars are considered by many as "subcharacters". Something with minor importance than a PC or even a NPC too worth to kill but also too worth to use actions to keep them alive. Because in the end familiars doesn't offer a risk alone nor can substitute a PC specially during encounters.
It's simple, if a GM kill a familiar it may annoy the player specially for lore reasons but typically nothing more. This player's character still able to do 99% of all his abilities without the familiar making the resources uses to kill the familiar in general a waste except a bit in terms of lore. At sametime in most cases if a PC dies or becomes unconscious the familiar becomes useless in combat. Maybe the GM allow them to have some role out of combat like ask for help but usually nothing more than this.
So for these reasons, no one really want to use actions or resources to keep the familiar alive. Because, why do I as a player have to use my important resources and action to keep this creature that only makes the caster a little bit stronger, instead of use them to keep a PC alive?
Witches forces you to go out of all this. It's extra familiar abilities “forces” them to act in battle as frontliners, mobile super spellshapers. Lose a familiar means that the caster lose a strong part of if powers (specially to use as your 3rd action) but at same time you need to put your familiar in danger to this work at same time that they are even more disposable because even if your familiar dies you get a new one in the next day without need to waste a downtime week and due to how its lore is written they act way more like as a patron vessel than as your own familiar (you still can make they lore as an independent creature with its own personality if you want but...) so you don't really have to worry too much if they die except for the rest of that encounter and maybe some next encounters in that day (but while you have a backup tactic of how to fight while your familiar is dead this is not a real problem). So you have even less reason to worry to use actions and resource to keep your familiar alive but due to how strong your witch's familiar abilities and the fact that you will put your familiar in a dangerous position are you probably will put some survivability abilities on it different from other classes that probably would only focus into put master abilities.
For GMs these familiars are also in a more complex positioning. Killing them means to disable some kind of strong debuff, but also requires a lot of effort in terms of cost of resources and actions that you probably would have a better use if they are focused against a PC. At same time that killing them in terms of roleplay is no different from "kill Kenny" in Southpark. Probably the next day everyone will act as like nothing as happened. So they still aren't your primary target, but maybe you want to use some AoE/multi-target effect to also hit them if possible.
For witches actively keeping the familiar alive could be useful but not required, specially for those who have backup plans and know that just a long rest is needed to back to normal.
All this means that play as witch's familiar is pretty different from play as a normal familiar, requiring you to worry more about your familiar survivability in terms of familiar's abilities but less in terms of roleplay and actions. This goes against the very idea that many have about play as witch that have a closer familiar that many possible witch players may want because you need to put them in risk to get your class full potential, and you are way less “punished” if you treat them as a tool or patron's vessel instead. But you are playing considering that they are just as tools or vessel, so probably this class concept will work pretty well for you.
I've found Faith's Flamekeeper to make a very good support - Stoke the Flame is a scaling damage buff that only costs 1 action per turn with a very generous range (that you can cheat on with Cackle), you can cast Bless and later Heroism for the hit bonus, and your familiar ability grants temphp. So long as you have someone able to land two hits consistently in the party (you know, rangers, monks, dual weapon warriors) your one action will consistently outdamage cantrips... which you can still cast on top of that if you want.
Yeah, that one is definitely in the tier below occult. The only problem is some parties already have temp HP or status bonuses to damage. So it's good but not as universally appealing as status penalties to the enemy are.
I think the Paradox of Opposites patron is pretty good. Its cantrip is chip damage and sustained fast healing all in one. The familiar ability is a no save stupified. The Witch is spoiling my Sorcerer with both of these effects so I’m surely biased, but it feels solid from what I’ve seen.
The Ripple in the Deep seems really solid as well. No save shove on the familiar ability seems abusable, especially with certain party comps. I just think the hex cantrip is a tad middling.
I think most witches are a lot like endurance wizards. They have a wide variety of effects they can bring to bear, and can sustain many of them. If their familiar bites it, they become more dependent on prepared slots, so turn into junior varsity wizards until they can do their daily preparations.
Depending on your patron choice, you may or may not have solid damage dealing spells, but there are feat options that grant weapons or more focus spell options. You can definitely play as a debuffer who then moves in with a cursed dagger or metal teeth or whatever. You are somewhat fragile but you have pretty good attack denial abilities, so I think it's still a solid approach that might occasionally buckle against mobile opponents.
oh huh. I didn't notice they nerfed the mosquito witch hex so heavily in the remaster. The old version did damage when you sustained it.
It's kind of funny that mosquito has the 1m immunity still since silence in the snow lost that in the remaster, so it went from being noticeably better than clinging ice to noticeably worse.
oh huh. I didn't notice they nerfed the mosquito witch hex so heavily in the remaster. The old version did damage when you sustained it.
It's kind of funny that mosquito has the 1m immunity still since silence in the snow lost that in the remaster, so it went from being noticeably better than clinging ice to noticeably worse.
I sincerely think the immunity clause remaining is a mistake. I find is suspicious the two preremaster hex cantrips with immunity clauses that made it into Divine Mysteries are the only ones with them. They’re damage cantrips too so you’d expect them to mimic Clinging Ice.
Trade Death for Life from the Paradox of Opposites did expectedly follow Clinging Ice’s lead though. That one debuted in Divine Mysteries as a damage cantrip with no immunity clause.
Take champion dedication for a reaction to protect your familiar and the heavy armor to stay somewhat close to it (and the enemy) and you'll be fine as far as familiar surviveability goes.
Take champion dedication for a reaction to protect your familiar and the heavy armor to stay somewhat close to it (and the enemy) and you'll be fine as far as familiar surviveability goes.
Possible, but a rather hard sell.
Witch is INT, while Champ needs both CHAR and STR.
Also stacks roleplay oaths/restrictions upon a class that already has prescribed flavor via the Witch's patron.
If potent defense is desired, I think Wood Kin is an easier sell. It's CON, so the Witch can make full use of that stat dip.
Even if the GM decides the protector tree doesn't protect the caster, the familiar is not the caster. Plus other defensive / support impulses in both Wood and Water.
Even Exemplar does not need an off-stat investment, and can use DEX.
If a direct Reaction is wanted, Thaum is another great option, if you are willing to invest in CHAR for the Amulet. Resist all = [level +2] is nuts.
Take champion dedication for a reaction to protect your familiar and the heavy armor to stay somewhat close to it (and the enemy) and you'll be fine as far as familiar surviveability goes.Possible, but a rather hard sell.
Witch is INT, while Champ needs both CHAR and STR.
Also stacks roleplay oaths/restrictions upon a class that already has prescribed flavor via the Witch's patron.If potent defense is desired, I think Wood Kin is an easier sell. It's CON, so the Witch can make full use of that stat dip.
Even if the GM decides the protector tree doesn't protect the caster, the familiar is not the caster. Plus other defensive / support impulses in both Wood and Water.Even Exemplar does not need an off-stat investment, and can use DEX.
If a direct Reaction is wanted, Thaum is another great option, if you are willing to invest in CHAR for the Amulet. Resist all = [level +2] is nuts.
STR is easy, you just do STR instead of dex and use heavy armor - which your champion dedication and an armor proficiency general feat provide. This also gives your familiar one more AC. CHA is a legit annoyance, especially at level 1, but it's really not that bad (you just need one background or ancestry boost + one free boost) and if you're taking champion dedication after level 5 it's trivial to have 14 CHA with two free boosts. Might mean you end up with +4 con instead of +5 con but that's about all. And if you use multitalanted you don't have to worry about any of this, though that might be a bit too long to wait.
Thaumaturge for amulet may at first glance seem a workable alternative, but it has several fatal flaws. You have to dedicate an entire hand just to holding your amulet to use it's reaction. You don't get the quick swap upon activation feature thaumaturge does, and even if you did that would still leave your hand stuck holding the amulet after. And of course, the fact that it only works vs one enemy at a time - after action taxing yourself for the privilege.
You still need the 14 CHA too. And you lose the heavy armor. So you're trading 1 AC for you and your familiar, an entire free hand, an action per enemy, and the rider effects on champion's reaction (depending on cause) just for more range. That's not worth the swap, not at all.
Timber sentinel is a more interesting idea. I think it competes too much with casting a spell to make much sense on a full caster, but it's not terrible. It's still treeposting memes, and works vs more ranged enemies. I just don't think it compares to the sheer action economy efficiency of getting a reaction where you otherwise likely wouldn't have one. You can hit the champion's reaction button most rounds without even touching your main actions, let alone forgoing the ability to cast a spell that round. Idk though, there's probably some stupid party comp for it where you're casting evil eye to proc resenenment witch extend on your ally's spells and going pure familiar surivability with your 2 action trees. Oh and this also requires a free hand, though not as bad as thaumaturge, you can still use it for transient uses and such.
Exemplar has decent options for witch but I'm not really seeing any special synergy here. Like sure mirrored aegis giving +1 status AC in a 15ft aura is good, but that's not really much better than just having +1 AC from heavy armor in the first place. In many cases it's worse, +1 status AC has a good few other sources and it can't stack. Doesn't help if someone else in the party (better suited for it) has mirrored aegis, or inspire defenses, or trudd's strength daggers. No other damage reduction either, just the AC.
This is less a specific combo piece witch really wants and more something it could take as it's last dedication, if it even has room between all the pretty good witch feats and grabbing, idk, expand aura or some shit. But as a last dedication it *might* be better than some class feat, and definitely a solid candidate for a mid game multitalented along with alchemist.