| Finoan |
I wasn't even aware that Skittermander was legal in PFS.
I'm guessing that they are importing the Switch Hands action.
As far as staying on the clearly legal side of rules legality, I would expect that anything that says that you need a free hand in order to do should be interpreted to mean having an active hand free. A free hand that is not active would not count. So things like Extravagant Parry or even Grapple would be questionable.
So mostly you would be looking at items that only need to be held rather than wielded.
| Squark |
So, the remastered Aldori Parry contains language demanding you keep all other hands free if you want the increased AC Bonus. That's relevant because it's the first rules element that deals with free hands published after SF2e was finalized. I'd generally say you should not expect to use your extra arms to get around effects that give you a "rebate" for keeping a hand free (Laughing Shadow and Aloof Firmament Magus, the Swashbuckler's Extravagant Parry, etc.). Thaumaturge's impelements empowerment arguably runs into the same wording issues- To get it, you should only be holding your implements, your esoterica, and one 1-handed weapon. Pulling out potions and consuming them with a free hand is definitely valid, but you won't be able to have a half dozen scrolls in your hands unless you feal like losing implements empowerment (This is equally true for 2-armed thaumaturges. You can have a scroll and an implement in the same hand if you have scroll thaumaturgy, but the scroll turns off your implement's empowerment).
Having extra arms provides two unambiguous benefits
1) If you carry multiple sets of gear, switching arms is not a manipulate action, but swapping gear is (So reactive strike is less of a concern)
2) Most consumables do not require you to wield them, so a Skittermander can have a sword and shield (or a 2 handed weapon, or a shield and a wand of shardstorm*, etc.), and then have consumables in your inactive hands. This provides a lot of extra actions for a scroll heavy character, which the generous gold available in PFS supports nicely.
*Wands of Shardstorm explicitly do require you to wield them
| Dragonchess Player |
TBF, Switch Hands is essentially the same as the exemplar or fighter Lightning Swap feat with the restriction that the character has to be already holding the items in the other set(s) of hands.
| Castilliano |
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Probably one of the best things to use Skittermander 6 arms are scrolls and implements.
Try a Thaumaturge using different implements and scrolls with different pair of hands. Probably would be cool and efficient.
Hugs?!
Hmm. Or maybe that just goes without saying.(OMG, I have such mixed feelings about releasing them into PFS, depending on which character I was playing. Not that I've played PFS lately.)
| Wendy_Go |
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I wasn't even aware that Skittermander was legal in PFS.
I'm guessing that they are importing the Switch Hands action.
As far as staying on the clearly legal side of rules legality, I would expect that anything that says that you need a free hand in order to do should be interpreted to mean having an active hand free. A free hand that is not active would not count. So things like Extravagant Parry or even Grapple would be questionable.
So mostly you would be looking at items that only need to be held rather than wielded.
This is in fact clearly legal. An empty hand is an empty hand. The 4/6 arms rules don't say anything at all about empty hands, just that you can only wield items with active hands.
I just today posted a thread about the RAW interpretation of that rule resulting in nonsense and it seems Paizo agrees, because they had ALREADY IMPLENTED the rules text change I suggested. The Shobhad have 4 arms and thier version of the 4 arms rules simply says "you wield items only with active hands".... which doesn't seem different from "you can only wield items with active hands" but in fact is, and has the result that you can in fact hold and use most items with non-active hands, as well as (if not holding anything) use them for all the things an empty hand can do.
| Finoan |
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This is in fact clearly legal. An empty hand is an empty hand. The 4/6 arms rules don't say anything at all about empty hands, just that you can only wield items with active hands.
That is not clear. In Pathfinder the rules for abilities requiring 'empty hands' have been in place for years under the assumption that characters only ever have two hands. So a lack of rules forbidding a 6 armed character from using 'empty hand' abilities is not sufficient evidence that the interaction is intended or is going to be allowed.
In Starfinder you have a better case for allowing it. But even there, a lack of rules in Pathfinder is not sufficient evidence.
The Shobhad have 4 arms and thier version of the 4 arms rules simply says "you wield items only with active hands".... which doesn't seem different from "you can only wield items with active hands" but in fact is, and has the result that you can in fact hold and use most items with non-active hands, as well as (if not holding anything) use them for all the things an empty hand can do.
Those are in fact identical. There is no reason to conclude that "You can wield items only with your active hands" (the Kasatha version) forbids you from holding a 1-handed weapon in one inactive hand.
And none of that gives us any indication of how Pathfinder's existing 'free hand' required abilities are intended to interact with inactive hands from ancestries with more than two hands.
pauljathome
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Thanks for the thoughts everybody. Appreciated.
My conclusion is that I should expect very little and to expect considerable table variation. And make sure that I can live with that variation.
Wendy - I've read your other thread and while I see where you're coming from I find it hard to believe that, in practice, any GM is going to be so draconian as to say you can't even hold a weapon in your other hands.
| eachtoxicwolf |
pauljathome wrote:It’s legal in PFS if you play a SFS game before Sept IIRCCan you cite a reference for this please? I just checked Archives of Nethys 2e and it isn't in there.
Edit: I just checked the Boons section, and it's not in there either.
Pathfinder Society Character Options - sources - Starfinder Player Core.
However, I do want to figure out if I can run one of the Starfinder Playtests and qualify to get the skittermander
| logsig |
Players and GMs who register at least one Starfinder Society (second edition) game on or before September 5, 2025 may create one Pathfinder Society (second edition) character using the skittermander ancestry.
SF2 playtest games don't qualify for the above, as those are reported as SFS1 games.
(The Dragonkin and Contemplative ancestries were unlocked for PFS2 by SF2 playtest games, but you would have had to complete them before July 31, 2025.)
| Justnobodyfqwl |
We know for sure that the rules are pretty permissive, because they were less permissive during the playtest and were explicitly changed.
Originally during the playtest, you could only do actions with Active Arms, no exception. However, we gave a lot of feedback that asked for arms to be a bit more generous, and Paizo specifically mentioned it as something that they changed due to playtest feedback.
Now afaik RAW, the only thing you can't do with your other arms are Wielding, or anything that explicitly calls it out. You are 100% allowed to use your non-active hands for anything that requires a "free hand". That includes Grab an Edge, Athletic Maneuvers, Climbing, etc. (Skittermanders even have a heritage that grants a climb speed using two pairs of legs and no arms!)
This is just kind of something I've noticed is a design philosophy in SF2E in general- abilities tend to be a lot more permissive and generous than in PF2E. Not STRONGER or BUSTED, it's more like they just..don't have a million caveats.
(And yeah, yeah, I know there's exceptions, people already pointed them out in this thread. I'm just trying to make the point that it's more generous than a Pathfinder 2e player might typically be used to, but that seems to be intentional.)
Hilary Moon Murphy
Contributor
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I am super excited to play a skittermander in PF2, but I still haven't decided what to play. Obviously, Time Traveler background will be fun, but I don't know what else I want to do!
Bard, rogue and thaumaturge all have their appeal with this ancestry - but I have made several bards and thaumaturges before, and at least one rogue.
So I think I'll be diving through archetypes and finding something weird that I want to turn into a character.
| Finoan |
We know for sure that the rules are pretty permissive, because they were less permissive during the playtest and were explicitly changed.Now afaik RAW, the only thing you can't do with your other arms are Wielding, or anything that explicitly calls it out. You are 100% allowed to use your non-active hands for anything that requires a "free hand". That includes Grab an Edge, Athletic Maneuvers, Climbing, etc.
For an ability printed in Starfinder2e that references needing a 'free hand', I would absolutely agree. That ability 100% works with a non-active hand that is free.
For a Pathfinder2e ability that references needing a 'free hand', that is a lot more questionable. Pathfinder2e doesn't have the expectation of more than 2 hands, so Pathfinder2e abilities are written with the expectation that if you have to have one hand free, then you only have one hand left for holding or wielding items. That expectation is not met in Starfinder2e rules.
pauljathome
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I am super excited to play a skittermander in PF2, but I still haven't decided what to play. Obviously, Time Traveler background will be fun, but I don't know what else I want to do!
Bard, rogue and thaumaturge all have their appeal with this ancestry - but I have made several bards and thaumaturges before, and at least one rogue.
So I think I'll be diving through archetypes and finding something weird that I want to turn into a character.
I'm pretty sure mine will be a swashbuckler. Doing a lot of aiding with One For All, of course. And the image of this little toothy 6 armed furry thing swinging into battle just amuses the heck out of me :-).