The ability is already fairly limited. Standard action to activate or maintain, with a move action to do the actual moving. You can’t move a creature or an object under the control of another creature. And you’re choosing these options instead of other options.
About the only complication is choosing to drop objects on targets which isn’t covered by the ability, so you’d need to house rule how that works.
Other than that, kineticist is a high floor, low ceiling class. It does well in combat with little investment, but you can’t really push it to high performance either.
power: kineticist isn't the most powerful class. It does require careful reading as it uses an abstracted (class) structure with inheritance, you could simplify the ability names as duplicity occurs. It really needs a class structure & flow chart...
This really is the biggest problem with the class. It has so many interconnected moving parts that it’s really easy to misread how something works or interacts. Fortunately, most of the misreadings don’t lead to power jumps like the eidolon can, but it does remind me of the problems with that class.
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About the only complication is choosing to drop objects on targets which isn’t covered by the ability, so you’d need to house rule how that works.
I believe somewhere in the plethora of PF1 rules, there are generic rules for dropping objects onto someone and involved making a check-like attack roll, or maybe it was a reflex save from the target, and damage was based on fall distance but didn't factor in weight (aside from light objects did half damage I think).
Sorry for not remembering more clearly, but I haven't referenced these rules in forever.
But my vague recollection was that it wasn't a great tactic.
Edit: Take a look at this.
Not sure if these rules are accurate, D20PFSRD sometimes does some interpretation of the rules.
Anyways, a 4000 lb granite boulder would be about a 5 x 5 ft boulder (so a medium object) and deal only 3d6 damage if dropped from 30ft or higher, with a reflex save for half.
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I believe somewhere in the plethora of PF1 rules, there are generic rules for dropping objects onto someone and involved making a check-like attack roll, or maybe it was a reflex save from the target, and damage was based on fall distance but didn't factor in weight (aside from light objects did half damage I think).
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Not sure if these rules are accurate, D20PFSRD sometimes does some interpretation of the rules.Anyways, a 4000 lb granite boulder would be about a 5 x 5 ft boulder (so a medium object) and deal only 3d6 damage if dropped from 30ft or higher, with a reflex save for half.
d20pfsrd is accurate in this case. The rules are on pages 443-444 of the Core Rulebook.
In addition to the table laying out damage (which are based on size, not weight, and with a lower damage for "lighter" objects like a wooden cart vs. a solid boulder), it also specifies how to make a deliberate attack with such objects: Ranged Touch attack, with a 20' range increment, AND the target gets a reflex save for half.
So dropping a medium object from 30' (the minimum for full damage) requires a ranged touch attack (with a -2 penalty for range) for 3d6 damage, reflex half. Or the 4th-level kineticist with an energy blast could make a ranged touch attack with no penalty for 2d6 + 1/2 Con damage (no save).
If a player still wants to attempt the drop tactic, the GM needs to be clear that she is the arbiter of what size an object is, and what counts as light. And that "clever" attempts to cheese the rules aren't going to be allowed. (Player: "I have a balloon of colossal size. It's filled with regular air, not helium, so it will fall and here's the math showing it is within my weight limit. It's definitely light so that's 'only' 5d6 damage." GM: "Uh, no. I'm calling that 1d6 damage.")
As others have said, the kineticist is extremely well balanced. It's made that way by extremely tight language that relies on a deep understanding of the overall rules. Which makes it difficult to visualize how things are going to play out when you're reading the class entry. It's really only after you've seen kineticists in play for a while (and realized what part of their abilities you were reading wrong) that you see how balanced they are.
The drop rules assume you are at the location you are dropping from. It’s relatively easy to tell when someone is directly under you. When using tk, you don’t have that perspective. It’s very hard to tell if your object is actually over a target from those angles. There should be a significant penalty.
At the least, I’d calculate the range penalties using (the distance from the caster to the object) added to (the distance from the object to the target). But really, it should also involve some non-intuitive math if it were to be realistic.
Thats what I meant when saying the rules don’t really cover this situation.
It's reasonable (IMO) to make some sort of additional penalty for figuring out how to drop the item on someone, while not being with the item being dropped....
But like it already sucks pretty bad on its own. Realistically I would expect most players once you explain to them just the base rules for dropping an item on someone they would go...yeah not worth it and move on.
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Unfortunately the physics of D&D & thus PF1 is totally borked.
Most of the reason physics "doesn't work" in Role-Playing Games (besides, you know, magic) is to prevent players from cheesing things up. With a modern knowledge of physics (or chemistry, or mechanical engineering) we can easily come up with things that "should" be more damaging than swinging a sword. But that upsets the balance. And of course to make it simpler. You shouldn't have to do physics to play the game.
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Basically the title. I have a player who's interested in trying out Kineticist, however, looking over the class, it seems really overpowered. The idea that a 4th level character could use Telekinetic Haul to lift 4000 pounds of weight using Burn (which doesn't seem like it incurs that much of a penalty?) seems far beyond something that would ever be balanced. Am I missing something here?
Thanks!
I'll admit I never really understood the Kineticist.
The idea of *ever* accepting burn, which is -1 hp / class level *for the rest of the day* per point of burn (and can't be healed or recovered without a full nights rest), seemed a bit much for me. And there are powers that want you to accept burn at the beginning of the day to get some sort of buff (Elemental Overflow), or powers with costs like '4 burn' which, is, like, all of your non-Con bonus hit points! Yes, I'd like to throw this big zap and then die in the very next round because I literally burned 40 of my 48 hit points *before the bad guys even attacked me!*
There is an Archetype (Overwhelming Soul) that doesn't use Burn, and I'd totally play *that* Kineticist.
I'm sure it's a great class if it never, ever, EVER gets attacked. But then, *every* class kinda rocks if it never gets attacked, I suspect...
Moderate burn isn’t so bad, since constitution is also a main stat for the kineticist. The class also isn’t very needy for feats, so most take toughness to help cover one more point of burn. But I do avoid any burn that isn’t giving me a buff through overflow.
A lot of the class is about avoiding burn, especially for blasts.
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I'll admit I never really understood the Kineticist.
The idea of *ever* accepting burn, which is -1 hp / class level *for the rest of the day* per point of burn (and can't be healed or recovered without a full nights rest), seemed a bit much for me. And there are powers that want you to accept burn at the beginning of the day to get some sort of buff (Elemental Overflow), or powers with costs like '4 burn' which, is, like, all of your non-Con bonus hit points! Yes, I'd like to throw this big zap and then die in the very next round because I literally burned 40 of my 48 hit points *before the bad guys even attacked me!*
This is a completely valid reason not to want to play the class. Just like "I don't like memorizing spells" or "Fighters are boring" are valid reasons.
I personally like the way the kineticist was a new (to PF1) way of implementing risk/reward tradeoffs. Spellcasters have to decide whether to spend a spell or save it for later. Kineticists have to decide whether to trade HP for combat power. It is worth noting that burn is non-lethal damage so even if you have taken your full (3 + Con Modifier) burn, you aren't likely to *die* from one hit, but it is very possible to be unconscious and unhelpful to your party.
The kineticists I have played and played with tend to be conservative with burn. Go a little wild in the first encounter or two until you have maxed out your elemental overflow benefits. Then throttle back and only use blasts that have no burn cost once you count in your abilities (Gather Power, Infusion Specialization, etc.). Unless you're in an "ah, everyone is about to die!" fight.
I've said it many times - the kineticist class design is really, really tight and really, really well balanced. But extremely difficult to visualize when you are reading the class. Only play can make it obvious.