Hello, I have a question about dead-magic region as certain places in Mana Wastes, Alkenstar, Dongun Hold. (Other places in Golarion ?)
In a dead-magic region, the spells, magic items doesn't function. The construct function.
All feats, items or others with the magical, divine, primal, arcane, occultism, conjuration, ..., teleportation ?
For example with a creature as a green man, the green man can't use :
- green caress (primal, transmutation)
- primal innate spells
- rituals
is it right ?
A horned has jaws, claws, tails that are magical. The dragon loses the trait ?
Poison breath (primal) ?
A grim reaper loses :
aura of misfortune (divine)
lurking death (divine, teleportation)
keen scythe is not magical and keen
divine innate spells
infuse weapon (divine)
Thanks for your future answer.
Green Men are deity level entities, or at least capable of granting spells are referred to as having deific level magic. So, they specifically might not be hindered by dead magic zones the way mortal magic is.
For creatures that don't have deity level magic, yes I've always assumed anything that is a magical wouldn't function, which would include anything with the tags for the magical traditions.
For edge cases like "natural attacks" with a magical trait, like the horned dragons jaws. Obviously it would lose the magical traits, though that doesn't necessarily do much on its own. It's unclear if the poison is magic based, and should go as well. You just have to make a ruling on cases like that.
As far as I know, the dead magic trait/condition isn't well explained in PF2.
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As far as I know, the dead magic trait/condition isn't well explained in PF2.
Yes. I think it is mostly left up to the GM to determine what does and doesn't work. By design. So that multiple different stories can be told in a wide variety of settings.
For a baseline, probably the best I can find is the spell Antimagic Field.
* Spells and magical abilities can't be cast or used.
* Magical items stop functioning.
* Magical weapons only function as their base non-magical form.
* Long-duration spells will be suppressed, but will resume if the non-magic area moves or ends.
* Summoned creatures, being a spell effect, will be suppressed and not be present.
* Permanent creatures of magic, such as familiars or golems, do continue to exist as creatures but will not be able to use their magical abilities.
But it is certainly possible to have the Mana Wastes behave differently than that.
* Magical items stop functioning.
I'd make a footnote that Artifacts are a likely exception to this: if their magic stopped working, they could be destroyed by means other than their specific listed method.
* Magical items stop functioning.I'd make a footnote that Artifacts are a likely exception to this: if their magic stopped working, they could be destroyed by means other than their specific listed method.
I agree, in the same way that deity level entities magic is likely to continue working.
I'm pretty sure in Pathfinder magical spellcasting involves tapping into the collective "weave" / metaphor-go-here of essences that exist like a background radio signal.
So even if you are an Occult Sorc with your own "self-fueled" magic, the energy of your own spell cast is not being spent making the effect, but being spent to reach out to Mind and Soul and knot them into a balloon animal / spell of your creation.
Basically, all "cast a spell" activity is actually kinda like tapping a ley line, you still need power and expertise to do it, but the actual magic clay is outside the caster.
(vaguer memory, but iirc this is why spells can be shared so easily when invented / discovered. Different casters can get "close enough" to the same balloon animal, and universality of the essences is why spellcasting isn't constantly creating unique personal spells)
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Idk if the gods broadcast / maintain the Four Essences that get used for magic, or if it's innate to Phar's creation. But, the gods of magic are definitely involved in it's maintenance / quality.
Either way, I think it could be helpful to think of "Dead Magic Zones" in terms of this background radio broadcast.
Do you want your Dead Zone to be really dead, and all the signals are silent and unusable? Or should it be a little scrambled, and invoke things like wild magic disruptions?
You could even have cyclical / random per-essence disruptions like weather.
For all you brave, and stupid, spellcasters out here in the Manna Wastes, here's your daily forecast:
Chance of wild magic today is low, lucky yall.
Weaving Matter might give you a +1 R, but Life could be a -1 to a +2. Spirit is calm, might even reduce your wild chances.
Already getting reports that Mind is randomly including extra targets, so watch out for that.
And remember, if you couldn't survive your magic going wild, you shouldn't have cast it in the first place! Gooooood luck out there, you'll need it.
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And that is *just* spellcasting.
So how the Dead Zone affects non-spell magics/ items is another can of worms. If you want it to, you can target the Invest an Item mechanic. In lore, I'd describe that as extending your soul to include the item into your self, so some "static interference" from the DZ could limit or disrupt this process.
I thought I read somewhere that Magic Weapons kept the effects of their Fundamental Runes that were on them before entering the dead zone. So magic weapons still functioned, especially the important striking capabilities.
That said, it does leave room for all sorts of questions for what sorts of magical attack abilities of a creature should or should not be impacted by the loss of Magic trait. (things like dragon breath, etc. being mentioned and very good examples of iconic abilities that might become in question)
I do believe it is clear that cast-a-spell activities should be blocked, but as another example (and I'm guessing there may be explicit guidance on this that I haven't read, since I haven't read that much on Kineticists, is do elemental blasts get blocked.
I think in a way, Pathfinder had shied away from effects that overly cripple whole character concepts, as a general rule, such that immunities are generally far fewer. But I think it also created an avoidance of really delving into the ramification for things like Dead Magic areas seem to avoid a lot of details, as if not making a firm commitment to specific ruling within the game, leaving a lot of table variation. Not sure if that is intentional, or skimpily an aspect of avoiding codifying something that could be seen as concept crippling.
However, on the other hand, ruling out the existence of dead zones sort of cripples certain types of stories and challenges, so they keep the implication these areas can exist, but perhaps don't super clearly define exactly how to rule them. I don't know if that is what they are doing, or not.
I thought I read somewhere that Magic Weapons kept the effects of their Fundamental Runes that were on them before entering the dead zone. So magic weapons still functioned, especially the important striking capabilities.
If you can find that, that would be great.
I would certainly agree that having a large area of non-magic and having a difficult battle in the middle of it would be a problem for everyone. There is the balance consideration here that if striking rune weapons continue to function, then the martial characters are at much less disadvantage in the battle than spellcasters are.
Which could be good or bad. Good because it means that the fight is less likely to go against the party and result in the end of the campaign. Bad because there becomes a lot of character disparity where some players feel like their characters are being actively targeted by the GM and other characters are getting a free pass.
In any case, if there is general guidance saying that Magic Weapons and their runes continue functioning, then it would directly contradict the note here in Antimagic Field:
The field disrupts only magic, so a +3 longsword still functions as a longsword.
Which is not to say that Antimagic Field is the ultimate authority on the matter. It is a legacy spell printed in the original CRB and is probably a direct import from a Pathfinder/D&D3.5 spell (hence the lack of mention of any striking rune on that +3 longsword in the note).
It is just that Antimagic Field is the only thing I can find that actually gives any guidance on how non-magic areas work.
I've done some searching, and I am coming up blank on where it was. Honestly, I checked the players guide for Outlaws of Alkenstar as I thought that was where I had read it, but I've tried doing searches in a few documents and not finding a hit so I am wondering if I misread something or might be pulling something in from a different game, which I don't know what I'd have mistaken it for so a bit confused.
I do remember reading that although a whole section of the city has an Anti-magic zone, the AP says there shouldn't be any feeling that a spellcaster would be at a disadvantage in the campaign, which just seems odd.
Might I be thinking that things like Golems continue to operate despite being magical within a anti-magic zone... was I thinking that something 'created' by magic (the rune affecting the weapon) would find the weapon is still 'changed'?
Maybe I read something about if using the high quality weapons optional rules, but that isn't the context I seemed to be remembering. If I find again what I think I was remembering, I'll point you to the source but am having trouble finding it.
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There is this on the Antimagic Oil (level 20 consumable) from the GM Core:
"When you apply this oil to armor, the creature wearing the armor becomes immune to all spells, effects of magic items (the wearer's and those of others), and effects with the magical trait for 1 minute. The oil affects neither the magic of the armor nor the fundamental runes of weapons attacking the wearer. Magical effects from a source of 20th level or higher, such as a deity, still function on the armor's wearer."
I do remember reading that although a whole section of the city has an Anti-magic zone, the AP says there shouldn't be any feeling that a spellcaster would be at a disadvantage in the campaign, which just seems odd.
There is a little bit of info in the pf1 module Wardens of the reborn forge, which has a gazetteer of Alkenstar.
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Maybe not very useful, but still.
I think that dead magic areas are not suitable at all for games in the pf2-like genre in general and pf2 campaigns. Just delete them completely from everything and forget about the trope. It's completely unfun.
I agree to them only when they have the same occurrence as 'dead weapon' areas where weapons and unarmed attacks don't work at all. And in this game mechanics even physical damage immunity for select creatures is forbidden.
I agree, but also disagree.
I think you don't need to erase their existence from the setting.
You can even do things like chases or skill encounters in dead magic areas.
What you shouldn't do though, and this is your point, is run combat. You're likely to completely shut down at least one person in your party (somebody's thing is going to involve casting spells) and beyond that even martial characters rely on magic to keep hitting and dealing the most damage. So if you do run a combat, you have to figure out how to balance it around no magical weapons and armor, and have to give casters a meaningful way to contribute....which basically just means don't do it IMO.
But, they can still be used narratively. Here, cross this vast desert where magic doesn't work. And if you run into the Zu, just run away as fast as you can.
I do remember reading that although a whole section of the city has an Anti-magic zone, the AP says there shouldn't be any feeling that a spellcaster would be at a disadvantage in the campaign, which just seems odd.
PF2 retconned a bit of the dead magic stuff from PF1. The main emphasis in PF2 is less that magic doesn't work at all and more that magic is unreliable in the Mana Wastes. There's rules for it in Impossible Lands. Personally I like that more than dead zones.
You're not alone in feeling odd about that in the AP. That was a fairly common criticism of the AP when it came out, especially as the Impossible Lands book hadn't come out with rules for Wild Magic. It makes sense from the perspective of not wanting to disappoint people who want to play their favorite class, but it doesn't give mechanical support to the lore and so puts more work on the GM.
I do remember reading that although a whole section of the city has an Anti-magic zone, the AP says there shouldn't be any feeling that a spellcaster would be at a disadvantage in the campaign, which just seems odd.PF2 retconned a bit of the dead magic stuff from PF1. The main emphasis in PF2 is less that magic doesn't work at all and more that magic is unreliable in the Mana Wastes. There's rules for it in Impossible Lands. Personally I like that more than dead zones.
…It makes sense from the perspective of not wanting to disappoint people who want to play their favorite class, but it doesn't give mechanical support to the lore and so puts more work on the GM.
Secrets of Magic contains rules for Wellspring magic, which doesn’t completely shut down spell casters but does hamper magic (in degrees from not at all, to severely changed) in specific areas. Most those areas are in wastes and not the city. See the link to wellspring magic in the chart linked above from the Impossible Lands book. I haven’t played the AP, but it seems that a GM could make it a lesser or greater plot point since I believe the PCs spend most of their time in the city rather than the wastes.
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Yeah when I ran Outlaws I used the Impossible Lands rules for Wellspring surges and they worked well.
Don't want to derail this thread too much, but
When I was first looking to run it, Impossible Lands was not out, and the AP is just "Here's a bunch of lore about how magic is weird in the city and surrounding area but we completely ignored that when writing this AP outside of a couple of events." Impossible Lands does give you some of the tools for the Mana Wastes but it doesn't help with everything.
For instance, the AP also talks how magic in Alkenstar varies throughout the day. During bronzetime magic is more stable and during surgetime it gets crazier, and so predicting when these happen is part of everyday life the same way we have weather forcasts, but the AP doesn't give you any tools to implement them into your adventure.
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Dead magic zones are essentially a significant rules change so should be addressed in session zero so players can build suitable PCs. Unless optional (as say a shortcut) or for a short spell (pun unintended) much like a prisoner scene or other deprivation of standard resources. Getting out is much more a relief/reward than adventuring within.
Played a PFS1 scenario with some fights in dead zones. Miserable experience even though I was mostly a martial because yeah, I wasn't playing the real version of my PC (who probably never would have gone there had he known!). One PC had to practically carry us in our toughest battle where magic was randomly off/on each round. Blech.
Such zones have varied throughout the decades in their intensity and what does or doesn't operate, how stable or chaotic magic is, how much the environment weakened or corrupted items & magic (such as Regeneration might give you a demonic limb if used in the Abyss). Such randomness & game-changing setbacks can be fun in an old-school style of play, but modern PF2 favors a fully actualized PC facing obstacles that don't require such a blanket nullification of PC agency. There's still use for such areas as obstacles to overcome, but not so much as a setting (unless going for a bleak, nihilistic style I suppose?). Even if spare they should be balanced w/ opportunities/obstacles where magic folk can thrive.
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I envisioned ways to make casters somewhat playable in Dead-magic regions while keeping to the lore that casters avoid these as the plague. It is a tricky thing to do.
For example, allowing consumables to work but not permanent items.
And/or allowing permanent effects of items to work but not activated abilities.
Both of those being based on the idea that magic is used to create them but not later, similar to Constructs.
Maybe allowing casting a spell but with a counteract effect of a random level.
Or casting makes you Drained with a value equal to the spell's rank.
So, making it possible for a caster to not be completely useless in encounters while ensuring that no caster would want to stay there.
I envisioned ways to make casters somewhat playable in Dead-magic regions while keeping to the lore that casters avoid these as the plague. It is a tricky thing to do.
For example, allowing consumables to work but not permanent items...
You keep using the term ‘dead-magic’ but I’ve seen Paizo referring to them as wellspring surges in both Impossible Lands and Secrets of Magic. The whole point is to not shut down spell casters. I would recommend that you look at the above links now before you try reinventing the wheel, as your ideas are very similar to those highlighted in the tables for surges (if casters fail their flat checks).
The rules that Perses13 was looking for are likely in those two books. It seems both the Alkenstar AP and adventuring more widely near the Mana Wastes could work now if everyone is on the same page regarding the randomness of wellspring surges. With all this discussion I’m now considering looking at that AP with fresh eyes to see if my current group would be interested.
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You keep using the term ‘dead-magic’ but I’ve seen Paizo referring to them as wellspring surges in both Impossible Lands and Secrets of Magic. The whole point is to not shut down spell casters. I would recommend that you look at the above links now before you try reinventing the wheel, as your ideas are very similar to those highlighted in the tables for surges (if casters fail their flat checks).I envisioned ways to make casters somewhat playable in Dead-magic regions while keeping to the lore that casters avoid these as the plague. It is a tricky thing to do.
For example, allowing consumables to work but not permanent items...
Eh...dead magic was a thing that appeared in PF1 rules and setting.
It seems like in PF2 they've learned that having large scales swathes of land be dead magic isn't fun (which I mostly agree with) and have instead substituted Wild magic or Wellspring Surges.
For those who were familiar with the setting in the PF1 context, knowing that the Mana Wastes were dead magic was one of the defining reasons why Alkenstar had developed firearms (although in game mechanics didn't back that up since guns were bad unless you were a gunslinger).
This is a change to the setting.
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You keep using the term ‘dead-magic’ but I’ve seen Paizo referring to them as wellspring surges in both Impossible Lands and Secrets of Magic. The whole point is to not shut down spell casters. I would recommend that you look at the above links now before you try reinventing the wheel, as your ideas are very similar to those highlighted in the tables for surges (if casters fail their flat checks).I envisioned ways to make casters somewhat playable in Dead-magic regions while keeping to the lore that casters avoid these as the plague. It is a tricky thing to do.
For example, allowing consumables to work but not permanent items...
Eh...dead magic was a thing that appeared in PF1 rules and setting.
It seems like in PF2 they've learned that having large scales swathes of land be dead magic isn't fun (which I mostly agree with) and have instead substituted Wild magic or Wellspring Surges.
Yeah... no. While Mana Wastes are magical chaos area, half of Alkenstar itself plus dwarfish Dongun Hold and some area between are still strictly dead magic areas:
"Smokeside exists within a permanent null-magic bubble"
Also, chaos magic areas (wellspring and so on) could very easily be much worse than dead magic areas. Hate those too.
No, chaotic magic is not fun.What's funny, in the Alkenstar AP that Smokeside is a dead magic area is mostly ignored or suggested to ignore. Or something like that.
I was trying to explain to the previous poster that Dead Magic very much was a thing, and that the new edition is kind of ignoring that and substituting wild magic in places. I haven't actually looked in depth at where/when that's being applied.
Even in PF1 it didn't happen in large enough scale outside of Alkenstar to be notable (as least not that I recall).