|
A quick-and-simple question. When I apply a CR-boosting template to a creature with a fractional CR, how does the CR advance?
Applying the half-dragon template to a kobold, for example. The kobold's CR is 1/4. Does +2 CR mean that the CR goes to 1/3, and then 1/2? Or does CR 1/4 jump straight to CR 1, then CR 2? Would a CR 1/3 or 1/2 creature also end up at CR 2 with this template?
Thanks in advance!
I would advance in these steps:
CR 1/8 -> CR 1/6 -> CR 1/4 -> CR 1/3 -> CR 1/2 -> CR 1.
A quick-and-simple question. When I apply a CR-boosting template to a creature with a fractional CR, how does the CR advance?
Applying the half-dragon template to a kobold, for example. The kobold's CR is 1/4. Does +2 CR mean that the CR goes to 1/3, and then 1/2? Or does CR 1/4 jump straight to CR 1, then CR 2? Would a CR 1/3 or 1/2 creature also end up at CR 2 with this template?
Thanks in advance!
Yes, why wouldn't it? Does a CR 1 creature not become CR 3 with the same template? Make the fractional CR 0 then add the template CR.
|
|
Well, crap. Two replies so far, with conflicting answers. Does it end up at CR 1 or CR 2?
To be literal, adding +2 CR to a CR 1/4 guy would put it at CR 2 1/4, which would "round out" to 2...
Treat each +1 in this case as a step, akin to weapon damage steps (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, etc.)
So an Advanced (+1) Giant (+1) um... let's say Monkey CR 1/4 would add two steps: from CR 1/4 to CR 1/3 and finally to CR 1/2.
Well, crap. Two replies so far, with conflicting answers. Does it end up at CR 1 or CR 2?
To be literal, adding +2 CR to a CR 1/4 guy would put it at CR 2 1/4, which would "round out" to 2...
Treat each +1 in this case as a step, akin to weapon damage steps (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, etc.)
So an Advanced (+1) Giant (+1) um... let's say Monkey CR 1/4 would add two steps: from CR 1/4 to CR 1/3 and finally to CR 1/2.
Where is the rules basis for this? There is nothing I can think of and it doesn't make sense.
How do we calculate CR?
A Giant Advanced Monkey doesn't do a lot of damage, but its stats are something like AC 18, 8 HP, and a bite at 1d4 damage.
Where is the rules basis for this? There is nothing I can think of and it doesn't make sense.
If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
That's for NPCs scailing down, but by extention you do the reverse for whatever when scailing up.
I'm 90% sure that adding +2 to the CR of a 1/4 creature results in a 1/2 CR (1/4 -> 1/3 -> 1/2).
I think this also applies when calculating XP for encounters. For example, if you have 4 creatures, that increases the CR by +4. In the case of CR 1/4 kobolds, that would be CR 2 (1/4 -> 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 1 -> 2)
I'm confused by this paragraph:
"Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key."
For example mites are CR 1/4, and have a "combat" role. If I add 4 levels of sorcerer, what is the CR?
All I know is that level 1 characters are going to be hard pressed to fight an Advanced Giant Monkey. The thing has like 18 AC.
I'm 90% sure that adding +2 to the CR of a 1/4 creature results in a 1/2 CR (1/4 -> 1/3 -> 1/2).
I think this also applies when calculating XP for encounters. For example, if you have 4 creatures, that increases the CR by +4. In the case of CR 1/4 kobolds, that would be CR 2 (1/4 -> 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 1 -> 2)
I'm confused by this paragraph:
"Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key."
For example mites are CR 1/4, and have a "combat" role. If I add 4 levels of sorcerer, what is the CR?
That paragraph tries to explain why adding levels of certain classes to monsters would result in a different CR adjustment than others. To wit, adding a lvl of wizard (a non key class marked with a "-" on the table on page 297 of the bestiary) on to a Stone Giant wouldn't add nearly as much power to it as a lvl in fighter (a key class marked as such on said table) would.
EDIT: And I agree with Cartigan on how the CR adjustment works. It's telling you to add whole numbers to the CR, not increase it by steps. The fractional CR scale mentioned earlier is for specific cases like a creature being adjusted to below CR1 since you can't have CR0 or below. Since going up doesn't have that problem you just add the adjustment to the original CR, effectively treating the fractional CR as zero for the final CR.
|
All I know is that level 1 characters are going to be hard pressed to fight an Advanced Giant Monkey. The thing has like 18 AC.
However it's still almost (it only gets a +2 bonus from advanced) as susceptible to color spray, sleep, etc. Also note that while it's damage goes up significantly (it goes to 1d4), it's attack bonus decreases significantly to +0. I'd call a stirge (only AC 16, but a fair amount of special abilities) to be a fairly equal CR to this advanced giant monkey.
To echo earlier people you should count a +2 CR as two "steps" along the CR chart, which would move it from 1/4 to 1/2.
All I know is that level 1 characters are going to be hard pressed to fight an Advanced Giant Monkey. The thing has like 18 AC.However it's still almost (it only gets a +2 bonus from advanced) as susceptible to color spray, sleep, etc. Also note that while it's damage goes up significantly (it goes to 1d4), it's attack bonus decreases significantly to +0. I'd call a stirge (only AC 16, but a fair amount of special abilities) to be a fairly equal CR to this advanced giant monkey.
To echo earlier people you should count a +2 CR as two "steps" along the CR chart, which would move it from 1/4 to 1/2.
It's to-hit stays even - it decreases by 1 for going from Tiny to Small, but increases 1 for adding a cumulative +2 to Dex. Which reminds me, I calculated armor wrong. It's AC is 19 I removed the +2 for being Tiny instead of reducing it to being +1 for being Small. Good luck fighting the angry monkey that you have ~35% chance to hit. Hope the spellcasters have blasty spells.
It's to-hit stays even - it decreases by 1 for going from Tiny to Small, but increases 1 for adding a cumulative +2 to Dex. Which reminds me, I calculated armor wrong. It's AC is 19 I removed the +2 for being Tiny instead of reducing it to being +1 for being Small. Good luck fighting the angry monkey that you have ~35% chance to hit. Hope the spellcasters have blasty spells.All I know is that level 1 characters are going to be hard pressed to fight an Advanced Giant Monkey. The thing has like 18 AC.However it's still almost (it only gets a +2 bonus from advanced) as susceptible to color spray, sleep, etc. Also note that while it's damage goes up significantly (it goes to 1d4), it's attack bonus decreases significantly to +0. I'd call a stirge (only AC 16, but a fair amount of special abilities) to be a fairly equal CR to this advanced giant monkey.
To echo earlier people you should count a +2 CR as two "steps" along the CR chart, which would move it from 1/4 to 1/2.
If you have spellcasters. =P
|
|
It's to-hit stays even - it decreases by 1 for going from Tiny to Small, but increases 1 for adding a cumulative +2 to Dex. Which reminds me, I calculated armor wrong. It's AC is 19 I removed the +2 for being Tiny instead of reducing it to being +1 for being Small. Good luck fighting the angry monkey that you have ~35% chance to hit. Hope the spellcasters have blasty spells.
Huh, for some reason I didn't read them having weapon finesse, and assumed like many tiny creatures that they didn't have it. Regardless, it's still about even for other CR 1/2 creatures. It only will deal 1d4 damage on a hit, has absolutely zero special abilities and a massive 8 hp.
The Stirge, as I quoted earlier, has lower AC (16), lower hp (5), but a host of special abilities to make it a decent combatant and a significantly higher CMB / attack bonus.
Also in comparison a 1st level NPC human fighter with 16 dex, 15 str, 13 con, using a longsword, breastplate, and heavy shield has:
21 AC, +4 attack, dealing 1d8+2 damage. Oh, it also has 12 hp. Actually heck lets make one of it's three feats toughness, now it has 15 hp; all at CR 1/2. So now you have something that deals more than double it's damage, higher AC, nearly double hp, however has lower saves and initiative. Yes, it's definitely two steps from CR 1/4 to 1/2.
Only seems like there's no consensus because there's two different questions going on.
One question, which people answered correctly, is: What's the the CR of a fractional CR creature when you add +1 CR to it (answer is it goes up by steps, it's not "1 and a fraction" CR)
A whole OTHER question is what is an *appropriate* CR when you're homebrewing monsters, adding templates and messing with stats. For THAT question, the answer is, it's
part science and part art.
That's from the first line of monster creation, but I think it's fair to say that applies equally to monster modification.
Good luck fighting the angry monkey that you have ~35% chance to hit. Hope the spellcasters have blasty spells.
It only does 1d4 damage, and a fighter who hits it will kill it instantly since it only has 8 HP.
Level 1 Human Fighter with 16 STR, a greatsword, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Furious Focus (not even an optimal selection, I believe) attacks at +5, hitting on a 14 or better - 35% chance, just like you said. But he does 2d6+6 damage - the minimum damage is enough to kill it. Since the monkey only does 1d4 damage and otherwise has no special abilities, I think it's a CR 1/2 monster - just one that's skewed towards AC defense. In any case, I'd rather fight this monkey than an NPC first level fighter (another CR 1/2).
......
I'm confused by this paragraph:
"Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key."
For example mites are CR 1/4, and have a "combat" role. If I add 4 levels of sorcerer, what is the CR?
Opps! I meant the second paragraph that I posted.
So you have this CR 1/4 mite, and you add a level of sorcerer... Still a CR 1/4 creature. You add a second level of sorcerer and it increases its CR by 1 - to 1/3 I presume, or is it CR 1. At this point does sorcerer become key? Or can I add two more levels and bump the CR up to only 1/2? I can understand if Mites are a weird corner case as they are one of the only non-humanoid creatures with such a low CR that can take class levels.
21 AC, +4 attack, dealing 1d8+2 damage. Oh, it also has 12 hp. Actually heck lets make one of it's three feats toughness, now it has 15 hp; all at CR 1/2. So now you have something that deals more than double it's damage, higher AC, nearly double hp, however has lower saves and initiative. Yes, it's definitely two steps from CR 1/4 to 1/2.
To be fair, a 1st level NPC can't afford all that equipment.
|
|
To be fair, a 1st level NPC can't afford all that equipment.
21 AC, +4 attack, dealing 1d8+2 damage. Oh, it also has 12 hp. Actually heck lets make one of it's three feats toughness, now it has 15 hp; all at CR 1/2. So now you have something that deals more than double it's damage, higher AC, nearly double hp, however has lower saves and initiative. Yes, it's definitely two steps from CR 1/4 to 1/2.
Actually a heroic NPC gets 390 gp in gear per page 454, table 14-9. While they're slightly overspending on the protective gear (~207 gp versus the 150 tabled), it's a recommendation in the first place and it would vastly be underspending on weapons (only 15 gp instead of 100 gp). It's actually quite within their gear expenditure.
Huh! Coulda sworn breastplates were more expensive.
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Increasing CR for creatures with fractional CR scores does indeed work the way Zaister said.
If you are a CR 1/4 creature, and you gain a template that increases your CR by +1, your CR would technically increase one step to CR 1/3.
Of course, regardless of what any template says, when you advance or alter a monster you should look at the final stats and compare those stats to Table 1–1 in the Bestiary to make a judgement call if you should alter the CR further.
Blind devotion to math when it comes to setting a monster's CR is not 100% accurate.
If it was an ordinary template with a +2 CR adjustment, it would go from 1/4 to 1/2.
However, the minimum CR for a half-dragon is 3.
So, you should make your kobold a 4th-level NPC class or 2nd-level PC class to make base CR 1, then add the template.
Boom, there you go! Or would it even just *be* CR3 by definition. The underlying creature's CR would be irrelevant unless it made the creature a higher CR than 3?
[edit: Ninja JJ with the 'part science and part art' tip]