What counts as "soil" for Ravel of Thorns ?

[Blue_frog]

Ravel of Thorns (4th level wood kineticist impulse) states - emphasis mine:

Quote:

Thorny vines grow in geometric patterns on surfaces in your kinetic aura. A creature that starts its turn in the thorns takes a –10-foot circumstance penalty to its Speeds until it leaves the area. The thorns are hazardous terrain. A creature takes 2 piercing damage each time it moves into one of these squares. If any square the thorns grow on is water or soil, double the hazardous terrain damage for all thorns. If you move, the thorns disappear; new thorns grow at the end of your turn.

So my question is in the subject: what counts as "soil" ?

This is harder for me as english isn't my native and I don't always get the subtleties of a specific word. So this question is as much RAW as RAI as linguistics.

I guess farmland and forests are definitely soil.
- Is a swamp "water or soil" ?
- Is a hill/mountain considered "soil" (provided you're not in a glacier or quarry of some kind) ?
- Are streets of a small village (where nothing is paved) "soil" ?
- What about a cave or a prison with an earth floor ?

Basically, is "soil" any kind of earth, as opposed to manufactured floors, or is it specific to "places where vegetation is already thriving" ?

[NorrKnekten]

If we want to consider the usage of the word 'soil' then 'soil' is essentially any kind of dirt or earth that can support plantlife. It has decayed organic matter and the needed minerals.

Even then you have varieties and compositions of Sand,silt,loam and clay.

So for individual your questions.
-A swamp is probably both water and soil.
-A hill might have patches of soil but might also be mostly exposed rock.
-Streets, caves, and stamped dirt floors is going to be a GM call depending on wether or not the GM feels like the area could support plantlife that actually grows in the soil.

[Claxon]

I roughly agree with NorrKnekten's assessment. The question is really "can this support plant life"?

So hardpacked dirt might still be a no. But a lot of things probably will, ultimately GM will adjudicate.

[YuriP]

IMO basically if the terrain is soft and a good substrate for plants it will be considered like a good terrain to double the hazardous terrain damage for all thorns.

[Claxon]

And honestly, because in my typical games the GM doesn't go into a great deal describing exactly what the floor is (beyond telling us mechanically impacting stuff like "hey, it's water/underbrush, so it's difficult terrain") it's probably just going to be something you'd ask each time you use the ability.

Honestly, while the damage is nice, the ability isn't really meant for damage. Rather it's a speed debuff imposing ability that as an added bonus might deal a little damage. 2 (or 4) damage per square moved through isn't nothing, but if the GM always said no to the double damage portion I probably wouldn't get too upset about it.

[Finoan]

Claxon wrote:

if the GM always said no to the double damage portion I probably wouldn't get too upset about it.

I think I would get upset about it just on principle.

If they wanted to houserule up front to remove that double damage clause from the ability, I might be able to be convinced that it is needed. The most convincing argument being that the GM doesn't want to constantly have to adjudicate whether the damage increase happens or not.

But simply 'always saying No' with no explanation and with no warning about it when picking feats... that feels bad.

[Bluemagetim]

I would think players with this impulse will probably be asking the GM about the terrain pretty often. So the GM will likely have to answer is that creature standing on soil or water a lot.

Just like I get the question is that creature wearing metal armor a from my player with thunderstrike.

If you know your player has the ability just make sure to specify terrain areas as much as is reasonable on initiative. In fact it will make battles more engaging for the them if you include at least a patch of water of soil even in a city environment.

[QuidEst]

If I were running, I would generally assume that outdoors counts unless otherwise specified, while indoors doesn't count unless otherwise specified.

For some personal answers, I'd count a dirt road as soil (just bad soil), and I'd default to a mountain counting as soil anywhere that doesn't require environmental rules or climb checks. If I have gone out of my way to say something is a dirt floor indoors, I'm probably allowing that as well. That's rare enough to be a nice treat, just like a stone surface outdoors is rare enough to only be an occasional thing.

Part of this is that only one square needs to count as soil, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt even on a mountain, hill, or dirt road. Patchy plant life, weeds on the side of the road, all of that is fair game.

[PossibleCabbage]

I concur that the question "is this soil?" is essentially the same as "could this ground support any sort of plant life?" Which might be an easier question to answer contextually.

Like if you can imagine that vines and stuff would emerge from beneath the cobblestones of the street (like how weeds grow in between cracks in concrete) then I think that would count.

[NorrKnekten]

Oh yeah, Anything that already has vegetation regardless of how sparse it is should count as soil. A normal dirt road of suitable time period would have plants growing on it if not maintained.

If we however look at things like cobblestone roads however. we might need to consider a few things. Both where this road is and the actual conditions. For the same reason I wouldn't count desert sand as soil.

But thats just another fancy way of saying that the GM decides what is and isn't soil.

[Blue_frog]

Thanks a lot for your answers, they make sense ;)

Claxon wrote:

Honestly, while the damage is nice, the ability isn't really meant for damage. Rather it's a speed debuff imposing ability that as an added bonus might deal a little damage. 2 (or 4) damage per square moved through isn't nothing, but if the GM always said no to the double damage portion I probably wouldn't get too upset about it.

It's certainly not MEANT for damage, but if you get to the double damage part, it gets actually scary. At level 8, hitting every opponent wishing to move for 6 damage a pop is no joke, especially since there's no save and it's a permanent effect.

Lots of people are praising Fire damage because of (at lvl 8) the 8 unescapable damage every opponent takes. Ravel is escapable (just don't move) but if you DO want to move (to go for the squishies, or escape an AOO for instance) then those 3 steps away from me will cost you your whole turn AND 18 hp.

[Claxon]

Blue_frog wrote:

Lots of people are praising Fire damage because of (at lvl 8) the 8 unescapable damage every opponent takes. Ravel is escapable (just don't move) but if you DO want to move (to go for the squishies, or escape an AOO for instance) then those 3 steps away from me will cost you your whole turn AND 18 hp.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the default Aura size is 10ft emanation from your character. And Ravel of Thorns doesn't create difficult terrain or anything, but does impose a 10ft speed penalty (which is similar effect of difficult terrain but isn't the same thing). I bring this up, because you mention they spend their whole turn "to get away from you" but that simply isn't true as far as I can tell. Even if you're adjacent to to them, they only need to be able to move 15 ft away from you, and with typical movement speeds one action to stride should get them out of your aura. Now, you might be able to use the ability very tactically to make getting to a specific target very challenging, but there are a lot of variables to positing. Concluding that "oh because I used Ravel I will make the enemy waste their entire turn" probably isn't a good one to make.

[NorrKnekten]

It certainly can make them waste using an action since their first movement action has less reach. But since it is a penalty applied at the start of their turn and only if they start the turn in the aura it has limited usability.

You are absolutely going to want to use Aura Shaping to expand the area to make it more valuable, More hazardous terrain and more movement needed to escape the -10 penalty, but that also means you need Safe Elements to not cause issues for your party. Which as a wood kineticist is a pretty important grab.

[shroudb]

Pair it up with Earth's Aura junction and they have a really tough time to actually disengage from you to go for your allies.

[Claxon]

NorrKnekten wrote:

It certainly can make them waste using an action since their first movement action has less reach. But since it is a penalty applied at the start of their turn and only if they start the turn in the aura it has limited usability.

You are absolutely going to want to use Aura Shaping to expand the area to make it more valuable, More hazardous terrain and more movement needed to escape the -10 penalty, but that also means you need Safe Elements to not cause issues for your party. Which as a wood kineticist is a pretty important grab.

It will (hopefully) make them waste 1 action due to decreased speed.

Depending on the abilities one plans to take, Aura Shaping can be useful for Ravel of Thorns and other similar abilities one might take. I wouldn't take it only for Ravel, but one could take multiple abilities that would benefit.

And generally speaking, Safe Elements is something that most kineticists are probably going to end up wanting. Or to plan to be away from your party.

[NorrKnekten]

Claxon wrote:

Depending on the abilities one plans to take, Aura Shaping can be useful for Ravel of Thorns and other similar abilities one might take.

Typically the only things that is applied to your aura is the Stances and Junctions. I know theres a few exceptions like Fresh Produce and Volcanic escape but lets be honest, As a wood kineticist you would probably swap Ravel of Thorns into something else once you get Drifting Pollen.

Claxon wrote:

And generally speaking, Safe Elements is something that most kineticists are probably going to end up wanting. Or to plan to be away from your party.

Absolutely, Its a rather undervalued feat IMO, even if it the case that most but not all kineticists wants it. Fire,air and metal in my experience has quite a bit of freedom when it comes to shaping their aoes while having auras that are generally beneficial or doesn't affect allies.