Please create a level 20 feat that allows you to become undead.

[R3st8]

The pinnacle of necromancy is lichdom, but I won’t request something as absurd as a feat that transforms you into a lich or vampire. However, it would be cool to have something like an undead sorcerer that grants you the undead subtype, even if it's just for show, like a trophy. A necromancer class simply wouldn’t feel complete without a feat like this; it’s such a classic staple of necromancers that is iconic across all forms of media. Of course, if anyone on the team decided to go all out for some reason and create something like the needle egg from Koschei the Deathless, I would be even happier!

[NorrKnekten]

There is a lich archetype so creating such abilities just isnt a neccesity.

But granted I would love for Necromancer to be able to decide if they are treated as alive or undead and would love to see a featchain for that to either increase the frequency or duration such a feat would have.

[R3st8]

NorrKnekten wrote:

There is a lich archetype so creating such abilities just isnt a neccesity.

But granted I would love for Necromancer to be able to decide if they are treated as alive or undead and would love to see a featchain for that to either increase the frequency or duration such a feat would have.

I think there is a huge difference between a feat like Bloodline Mutation and a full rare archetype. How many GMs do you think will allow you to take the Lich archetype compared to playing as an undead sorcerer? Additionally, relying on archetypes to fulfill certain roles is a bad idea.

[AestheticDialectic]

R3st8 wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

There is a lich archetype so creating such abilities just isnt a neccesity.

But granted I would love for Necromancer to be able to decide if they are treated as alive or undead and would love to see a featchain for that to either increase the frequency or duration such a feat would have.

I think there is a huge difference between a feat like Bloodline Mutation and a full rare archetype. How many GMs do you think will allow you to take the Lich archetype compared to playing as an undead sorcerer? Additionally, relying on archetypes to fulfill certain roles is a bad idea.

Counter point is that letting your player become a lich is something that should be gated behind rare regardless, and it being a level 12 feat is better than it being gated behind a level 20 feat

[R3st8]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

R3st8 wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

There is a lich archetype so creating such abilities just isnt a neccesity.

But granted I would love for Necromancer to be able to decide if they are treated as alive or undead and would love to see a featchain for that to either increase the frequency or duration such a feat would have.

I think there is a huge difference between a feat like Bloodline Mutation and a full rare archetype. How many GMs do you think will allow you to take the Lich archetype compared to playing as an undead sorcerer? Additionally, relying on archetypes to fulfill certain roles is a bad idea.

Counter point is that letting your player become a lich is something that should be gated behind rare regardless, and it being a level 12 feat is better than it being gated behind a level 20 feat

Please read the thread again, what I'm suggesting is a flavor feat like bloodline mutation from the sorcerer, the part about the needle egg was basically a joke.

Also, NO, a level 12 rare feat is not better than a level 20 feat, even a flavor one, because a level 12 rare feat is functionally a non-existent feat. Seriously, do people in this forum play with GMs who allow everything?

[Saedar]

I dunno, friend. Seems like you might be playing with some overly restrictive GMs.

Either way: Archetypes are the way and the truth in PF2.

If you just want a generally-cosmetic vibe, just call yourself a lich (or whatever).

[kwodo]

R3st8 wrote:

Also, NO, a level 12 rare feat is not better than a level 20 feat, even a flavor one, because a level 12 rare feat is functionally a non-existent feat. Seriously, do people in this forum play with GMs who allow everything?

I do, yeah. Our table basically ignores rarity altogether.

[NorrKnekten]

R3st8 wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

There is a lich archetype so creating such abilities just isnt a neccesity.

But granted I would love for Necromancer to be able to decide if they are treated as alive or undead and would love to see a featchain for that to either increase the frequency or duration such a feat would have.

I think there is a huge difference between a feat like Bloodline Mutation and a full rare archetype. How many GMs do you think will allow you to take the Lich archetype compared to playing as an undead sorcerer? Additionally, relying on archetypes to fulfill certain roles is a bad idea.

Oh no, I am very well aware you werent arguing about adding a feat that made the Necromancer undead. Bloodline mutation doesn't do it either despite adding the trait to you. Sorcerers with the Undead Bloodline are still treated as a living creature for every single effect outside Heal/Harm when affected by their focus spell.

My point is that just slapping on the undead trait and some void resistance is kinda boring for a lvl 20 feat. However being able to temporarily extend the Mastery of Life and Death feature to a defensive feature in regards to if they are treated as living or undead is really on theme. Which can then later become a permanent thing if done trough a feat-chain.

I feel like we want the same thing but I just really hate the idea using the design space for a feat to just slap a non-functioning trait on a character.

As it stands right now... true undeath is and should be rare just as unholy character options overall are uncommon.

[AestheticDialectic]

R3st8 wrote:

kwodo wrote:

R3st8 wrote:

Also, NO, a level 12 rare feat is not better than a level 20 feat, even a flavor one, because a level 12 rare feat is functionally a non-existent feat. Seriously, do people in this forum play with GMs who allow everything?

I do, yeah. Our table basically ignores rarity altogether.

If you never felt this feature being weaponized against you then you wouldn't understand why its so bad.

It's not weaponized against you. These things are off limits for a reason and a GM can allow these things. The GM is the nice parent you ask and Paizo is the mean parent. This is deliberately the case. Things locked behind rare are such for a reason. It's typically better to not allow them. It's perfectly reasonable for most campaigns and settings that being a lich or undead generally is off limits. A level 12 rare feat is better because it is easy to disallow where appropriate and comes in at a better time during the campaign for maximum fun when it is allowed. If your GM restricts being a lich, or the skeleton ancestry, I think it's perfectly valid

[AestheticDialectic]

R3st8 wrote:

So you think a random person from Discord is my parent now? Don't you see the issue in taking for granted certain qualities about the GM?

It's figurative language

[Xenocrat]

R3st8 wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

snip

Xenocrat wrote:

Waste of page space.

Oh yes, forgive me for using a feedback thread about a necromancer to discuss this, because summoning a gravestone giant is just so much more common in media. Sigh. And naturally, it’s perfectly fine to be rude when it’s your side doing it, isn’t it?

No. And yes.

[AestheticDialectic]

R3st8 wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

R3st8 wrote:

So you think a random person from Discord is my parent now? Don't you see the issue in taking for granted certain qualities about the GM?

It's figurative language

I know but the point I'm trying to make is that the gm wont always be such comprehending figure, some gm may just.. you know what never mind its clear nobody cares just enjoy your necromancer.

I don't want to invalidate your feelings. I do think perhaps you aren't thinking from the GM's perspective though, and maybe not Paizo's either. Page space in physical books is a premiums commodity. They have to be choose-y about what is included and what isn't. I think it is perfectly reasonable that any campaign and GM who allows the necromancer will allow you to be a dhampir or skeleton, or perhaps one of the level 2 archetype undead such as ghost, vampire or zombie. Dhampir is only uncommon, and skeleton may have an intelligence flaw by default, your GM cannot veto you using two free boosts instead of the normal array of boosts for the race as per raw which means you can get get an int boost just fine, and if your GM really won't allow anything not common, find a new playground

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, if I had a player who was playing a Necromancer who wanted to become a Lich, I would pretty much always give them access to the archetype if a character that evil wouldn't be a disruption to the party, story, etc.

Or just one of the other undead archetypes, really. "You died and came back a ghost" would be less of a problem for the Necromancer than for a lot of classes, and you can do that at level 2.

Or just choose "Skeleton" as your ancestry. So level 20 is a super-weird place for this.

[AestheticDialectic]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, if I had a player who was playing a Necromancer who wanted to become a Lich, I would pretty much always give them access to the archetype if a character that evil wouldn't be a disruption to the party, story, etc.

Or just one of the other undead archetypes, really. "You died and came back a ghost" would be less of a problem for the Necromancer than for a lot of classes, and you can do that at level 2.

Or just choose "Skeleton" as your ancestry. So level 20 is a super-weird place for this.

Yeah, like, R3st8, if you were in my playgroup playing a necro, I'd just let you choose lich with free archetype without much hesitancy. Especially for a campaign like Bloodlords

[The Raven Black]

Odd. This thread feels like some posts have been deleted but when Paizo staff does it, they put a post explaining what they did, why and asking people to be better to each other.

[Powers128]

A capstone feat for lich or lich-like abilities would be cool and better than needing to take the rare archetype for it. A necromancers journey certainly could fit that in thematically.

[The Raven Black]

TBT I feel it is not the same flavor / theme.

The Necromancer described here is all about creating and using undead as means to their end.

Becoming one feels off.

[YuriP]

Well it's an option. Some necromancers prefer to become liches but not all. Maybe because most necromancers doesn't like too much to deal with Pharasma in the end of their lifes...

That said I remember now that lich option already existis in the game. Maybe is simple just use it.

[NorrKnekten]

The Raven Black wrote:

TBT I feel it is not the same flavor / theme.

The Necromancer described here is all about creating and using undead as means to their end.

Becoming one feels off.

Im going to be honest, This Necromancer looks more about bone and flesh puppets than actual undead. I feel this is purposeful in order to make "Good" Necromancers viable.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Necromancers should be about undead and not recycling bone and flesh puppets to do minimal things. Where is my undead pouring me a glass of wine? I suppose if we want true undead vibes just go Undead Summoner or grab the Undead Master Archetype which feels on point but weird when Druids and Rangers get an Animal Companion feat chain which was reprinted. They could h have ignored them and waited till Player Core 2 and Beast Master.

This is the fastest way to make a Pseudo-Necromancer who isn't evil nor good by making it so their Thralls aren't even alive, they just exist via as as other quote "Flesh Puppets" which you can't even command once made they just stand there able to attack once then be used as either a wall of flesh and bone or fuel for your focus spells.

Ii would probably do well if we could Command Thralls to move and attack again, that would greatly increase the basic theme of the class immensely.

[Zoken44]

So question for some people here... are y'all really springing the idea of being a lich on your GM as soon as you turn level 12? or 20?

LIke, if that was something I wanted to consider, I'd be talking to my GM about that at level 1. Hey this is something I'm thinking about when I get to that level. Would that be okay?

"Hmm, I dunno, lets check in again at level 6 and see where things are, or Yeah I can work in some stuff for that on the way".

Like if you're playing a necromancer, I know that kind of flavor is a possibility.

And I like this kind of necromancer, who views dead flesh and bone spiritual residue as tools rather than someone eagerly looking to consume the living, which would clearly bring ready reprisal.

I'm all for having Undead companion and familiar feat lines as part of the class. But pretending that the class has to be be about having permanent undead minions show as much a lack of imagination as pretending that being a necromancer means you want to become undead yourself.

[NorrKnekten]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Necromancers should be about undead and not recycling bone and flesh puppets to do minimal things. Where is my undead pouring me a glass of wine?

Oh no don't get me wrong, I am not against character options for truly delving into the creation of true undead or undead themed construct companions. But I am against it being a core part of the class for the same reason as why I always hated the pre-remaster champion subclasses being alignment locked.

Druid and Ranger got animal companion feats because those are core to the class itself or a subclass with unique options for said companions. I would prefer the ability to gain a minor version of Perfected Thrall at level 2-4 that heightens accordingly like a companion. Then the capstone Perfected Thrall letting it use your spell-attack and using 20 hp from it to fuel your grave spells.

Giving thralls the option to move sounds like a great idea as my experience with a Large PC beside the necromancer caused quite the issue of not being able to get into melee because of all the thralls, or thralls which cannot be summoned close because they monster has temporary damage aura.