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Players have complained a lot about Spellstrike triggering Reactive Strike. I think it's a clear information that there's no fun in that. Tracing Runes shouldn't trigger Reactive Strike somehow.
Players have complained a lot about Spellstrike triggering Reactive Strike. I think it's a clear information that there's no fun in that. Tracing Runes shouldn't trigger Reactive Strike somehow.
Yes I saw this too.
Runesmith mechanically remembers me the magus with expansive spellstrike a lot including the trigger reaction problem. The main different is that this class if you choose to fight at range you need to use an extra action so no viable starlit span like workaround.
there are 2 action 30 feet option that doesn't risk aoo
but the powergaming instinct of player would lean to use 1 action melee option instead
just ask caster to use hideous laughter first
No need to powergame, just to play a melee Runesmith.
I even think it's worse in the case of the Runesmith because there's no fallback. At least, the Magus can play with Focus spells and Arcane Cascade (and even spells) if they can't Spellstrike. But if a melee Runesmith can't Trace, their only option is Strike Strike Strike...
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Striking is their back up option though! In all seriousness why is taking a Reactive Strike such a bad thing, it's the balance of the system.
Striking is their back up option though! In all seriousness why is taking a Reactive Strike such a bad thing, it's the balance of the system.
The problem is that at high level you have more than half of the enemies with Reactive Strike. So it's not an issue at low level, but at high level it completely shuts down one of your strategies.
Also, high level enemies tend to crit and Reactive Strike crits disrupt the action.
Isn't that literally the 2 action 30ft version though? Or perhaps the Drawn in Red feat which you Strike an enemy, move away from them and Trace Runes via Drawn in red?
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Bidi I thought your considered the 1a melee tracing to be too OP that it breaks the class!
These are 2 completely separated problems. Triggering Reactive Strike doesn't solve the fact that the Runesmith outdamages a Fighter 2 to 1 as of now. It has to be solved through a solid nerf. But once it will be nerfed, we'll be left with a Runesmith that triggers Reactive Strike which is unfun.
Rune Smith as of right now, cab apply runes from 30 feet for two actions
At level 6 can apply one at range for one action
At level 12 your base rune range is 30 feet for one action
They have legendary class DC scaling.
This is in no way the Magus all over again.
It becomes the magus if we nerf trace to only work with strikes and apply subclasses where only one can do it from range.
there are 2 action 30 feet option that doesn't risk aoo
but the powergaming instinct of player would lean to use 1 action melee option instead
just ask caster to use hideous laughter first
No need to powergame, just to play a melee Runesmith.
I even think it's worse in the case of the Runesmith because there's no fallback. At least, the Magus can play with Focus spells and Arcane Cascade (and even spells) if they can't Spellstrike. But if a melee Runesmith can't Trace, their only option is Strike Strike Strike...
Or be forced to not play at melee and Trace at range with one more action.
Yet I agree with SB. Currently the situation is "Let's go closer to do a lot more damage! Oh-no I trigger an RS/AoO, let's go back to avoid the reaction and reduce my firepower by half". This doesn´t look a fantastical tactical strategy where the player need to seek how to workaround the problem (trigger an RS/AoO) just a OK this enemy has a simple mechanic that oblige me to choose between sacrifice half of my DPR or take damage and risk to have it canceled (specially at high levels there are a lot of NPCs and monsters able to do many ractions per round and with Disrupt when hit instead of when critical hit).
One Feat - Drawn in Red - Enjoy...
At level 6 can apply one at range for one action
At level 12 your base rune range is 30 feet for one action... But how?! I can't find anything like that.
Rune singer is once per minute, but it's 1st level. Don't see anything at 12th.
I think they’re tangentially referring to Tracing Trance for the 6th level feat and they’re misreading Distant Invocations for the 12th level feat (since it applies to Invoke, not Trace).
I don't see why. You have the one action option to trace in case you won't see a reactive strike, and you have the two option one in case you want to avoid a reactive strike.
Most monsters don't have reactive strikes and the ones that do tend to not be able to make more than one per round.
One Feat - Drawn in Red - Enjoy...
It's an alternative for reach weapons but it's level 8 feat...
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/sigh
Reactive Strike is simply part of the puzzle of playing a melee-centric Gunslinger (every reload in melee reach triggers), Magus, and, now, Runesmith.
There are ways to deal with the problem. Figure them out. Rarely are these classes played in a vacuum. They have teammates. Coordinate. Delay. Let a "tank" trigger reactions. Get a caster to cast something that prevents reactions. Etceteras. The problem is hardly insurmountable.
If that's not fun for you, then either play something else or, by all means, make a house rule at your table.
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Reactive Strike is simply part of the puzzle of playing a melee-centric Gunslinger (every reload in melee reach triggers), Magus, and, now, Runesmith.
I mean not really.
Reactive Strike is sufficiently rare that it's never going to be part of the overall design and balance, because it might never come up in the first place.
Puzzle doesn't seem like the right word either, because there aren't a lot of moving parts or tools built around it either.
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Few ever complain about the Thaumaturge using Exploit Vulnerability, amulet, bell, chalice, mirror, or wand within reach of a reactive strike for some reason.
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Reactive Strike is simply part of the puzzle of playing a melee-centric Gunslinger (every reload in melee reach triggers), Magus, and, now, Runesmith.I mean not really.
Reactive Strike is sufficiently rare that it's never going to be part of the overall design and balance, because it might never come up in the first place.
Puzzle doesn't seem like the right word either, because there aren't a lot of moving parts or tools built around it either.
Can't speak for the others, but he is correct about melee Gunslingers, who get tools for avoiding some (but not all) of the Reactive Strike triggers of Ranged Attack, Reload, and Moving into position. (Bullet Dancer can avoid the Ranged trigger, and Drifter can avoid the Move trigger.)
"Puzzle" accurately describes how it feels to play a Bullet Dancer effectively. Not sure we want Runesmith to feel quite that constrained.
Reactive Strike is simply part of the puzzle of playing a melee-centric Gunslinger (every reload in melee reach triggers), Magus, and, now, Runesmith.I mean not really.
Reactive Strike is sufficiently rare that it's never going to be part of the overall design and balance...
I have not played any AP since the release of PF2E where Reactive Strike was not encountered at some point. And several have had creatures with multiple Reactive Strikes [Hail Hydra!].
While it may not be part of the overall design and/or balance, it is certainly a factor that has to be accounted for when playing a Your-Thing-Just-Might-Provoke class. That is "part of the puzzle."
And there are plenty of tools. They may not be explicitly built around [Reactive Strike], but that doesn't diminish their utility. Having a tanky party member intentionally provoke is a tool in the box. There are spells that prevent the target from using reactions. The Confused and Stunned conditions prevent the target from using reactions. A rogue racket has a debilitation that prevents the target from using reactions. And so on.
It is simply a fact of life for several (sub)classes that their schticks may provoke Reactive Strike. Working around that risk is, as I say, part of the puzzle of playing those classes.
I did misread distant invocations and drawn in red is a fine substitute.
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Something like 1/8 of the bestiary has reactive strike or a comparable ability. I think "figure out how to deal with an enemy with reactive strike" is much like "figure out how to deal with an enemy who can fly" or "figure out how to deal with an enemy that is invisible" as a thing you just have to learn how to deal with when it comes up.
I think "that's a sometimes problem" is an intentional design principle that serves to ensure that a character cannot just do the same, most efficient, thing over and over again.
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Something like 1/8 of the bestiary has reactive strike or a comparable ability.
It's extremely level dependent. At high level, it's much closer to 50%.
Also, I personally don't care (as it is now, the Runesmith is banned in my games so I'm not really interested by its current version). It's just that Spellstrike triggering Reactive Strike came over and over again and as such I think it's not something players like.
Not everyone is interested in puzzles, some players just want to play their character without gotcha moments every now and then.
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Yes I compared once a time ago, and around 30% of all monsters have some reaction (ignoring NPCs) like AoO. But only 10% are in level 1 or less this progressively increases up to 70% when reach level 20. Including becoming common that top level enemies Disrupt in a normal hit instead of a critical hit.
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If you don't want puzzles, don't pick a class that has them. I'm not in agreement that every class needs to be puzzle free or have a puzzle free option personally.
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If you don't want puzzles, don't pick a class that has them. I'm not in agreement that every class needs to be puzzle free or have a puzzle free option personally.
But Reflexive Strike is not an obvious puzzle. It's only when you play the game, and especially when you reach high level, that you discover it's so ubiquitous.
As is, the Runesmith is an easy class to play, it's fully beginner friendly... save from Reflexive Strike interaction.
And also: "Just play a Fighter, you noob!" is not exactly a satisfying answer.
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Neither is dumbing the game down because people don't like having to change their turn strategy.
Agree to disagree
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Just get a buddy to trigger it first then make the enemy regret it.
Teamwork OP.
Why are you expecting the enemy to fall for your trick multiple times? For that matter, depnding on the adversary, they may notice someone delaying until some else provokes and act accordingly
Few ever complain about the Thaumaturge using Exploit Vulnerability, amulet, bell, chalice, mirror, or wand within reach of a reactive strike for some reason.
I'm not sure how many GMs know those have the manipulate trait. Hell, I've played a Thaumaturge in PFS for nearly two years and I didn't know (I was to new to the PF2 when I started playing to recognize the significance of the trait at the time, and haven't gone back over it to look because none of my GMs have tried to take a Reactive strike in response).
I had a case where this happened due foundry automations one of my NPCs triggered my Thaumaturge player's Interrupt Strike when Standing up (my foundry alerts when someone uses a Interact action in the range of a creature with a Interect triggered action) but when this happened due second implement swap (he wasn´t with his weapon at hand) this Interact action triggered this same NPC AoO.
It was fun but strange at same time. I was felling like a blue deck MtG game where 2 counter spells rolls. Anyway to avoid to trigger AoO he simply kept the weapon at hand instead to swith to another implement after this vs this NPC.