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So all the talk about the new ancestries and revamped classes has got me thinking about how I "mechanically" make characters. It made me realize that I (and likely others too) try to make sure we always have certain things when making a plan for a character. I made a list and I realized, outside of Free Archetyps funsies, I rarely can get all of these and often cut out some depending on what my teammates do. I'll include my list so people can make their own cuts or addtions.
So, mechanically, what are you MUST haves when building a character? What would you add or cut yourself? Again, just curious what others try to do.
1. Maximum KAS (when appropriate)
2. Best save scores possible for build.
3. Good Reactions
4. Good Free Actions
5. A Stance of some kind.
6. Access to spellcasting of some kind (unless well covered by party)
7. At least expert in Stealth
8. The ability to Recall Knowledge at some skill level.
9. Fleet, Toughness, Cunning Acumen
10. 3 useful focus spells (if possible)
11. A ranged or melee backup option.
12. A ranged "third action" option. Bon Mot, Intimidation, Trip, Grapple, Shove, etc.
13. Flight or Air Walk
14. Maximum AC per level
15. When possible, Acrobat dedication
16. Access to Invisible & See Invisible
17. When possible, ability to see through concealment
18. A teammate buff option (passive, active or reactive, as an option)
19. Medicine + Battle Medicine OR lay on hands (if no one else is bringing healing). (Alternative is Kinetistic healing when getting a stance)
20. Linguistic skills (languages, speak to "X", Truespeech, etc)
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Man, that's a lot, your characters will always look the same with such a list.
Personally:
- Maxed attack skill.
- If possible, maxed KAS (if not the attack skill).
- No save left behind when increasing attributes every 5 levels (if I have Bulwark I don't increase Dexterity).
- Some out of combat abilities, in general skills.
- In general, high Charisma or Intelligence.
- In general, a weird uncommon build that no one else is playing.
Not really gonna pick through the whole list, but I would always cut #2. Saves don't happen often enough that you should be maximizing them at the expense of fun things. If that means sometimes combat takes an abrupt shift because your character is dominated, so be it- it's worth it to have levels upon levels of stats you like.
I usually build around a theme or a specific feat or thing that I liked in the class.
But is usually Max key attribute score, skills and skill feats on theme of the character or just the ones that I have the highest stats, make the saves as high as possible and that's it.
Like I could make Wrestler Warpriest focused on Athletics, Acrobatics and Medicine going after body perfection and focus on self buff spells, or I could make an Archer Warpriest that follows a hunting deity and then the skills and skill feat would go after Stealth, Suvival and Nature and have spells that works well at long distance and survival.
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Looking at what I actually do when building a character, I found a lot of stuff is actually negotiable. What isn't:
- A team support ability of some kind.
- A specific niche in the party that I'm the best at (usually via skill selection).
- Being effective at whatever my narrative says I should be good at (this will usually involve max KAS, availability of feats to support it, etc).
I'm usually working on the basis of having a theme or narrative I want to play and then building a character that's good at that.
That means there's lots of stuff I'd like, but if I don't get it, meh. Like a good reaction. Nice to have, but lots of things I want to play don't really get one and its not a dealbreaker. The above stuff is actual dealbreakers. If I can't be good at the thing I'm narratively supposed to be good at, then whatever else I can do doesn't matter, and I find I don't tend to play "selfish" characters in terms of ones that have no team support options.
Man, that's a lot, your characters will always look the same with such a list.
Personally:
- Maxed attack skill.
- If possible, maxed KAS (if not the attack skill).
- No save left behind when increasing attributes every 5 levels (if I have Bulwark I don't increase Dexterity).
- Some out of combat abilities, in general skills.
- In general, high Charisma or Intelligence.
- In general, a weird uncommon build that no one else is playing.
That was my point, it's too much for one character, these are the things I try to put into a character, mechanically. Basically it's impossible to have them all in one character. Nor would it be good if you could. (Not sure I was clear on that point)
I like your priority list. Clean and efficient.
I usually build around a theme or a specific feat or thing that I liked in the class.
But is usually Max key attribute score, skills and skill feats on theme of the character or just the ones that I have the highest stats, make the saves as high as possible and that's it.
Like I could make Wrestler Warpriest focused on Athletics, Acrobatics and Medicine going after body perfection and focus on self buff spells, or I could make an Archer Warpriest that follows a hunting deity and then the skills and skill feat would go after Stealth, Suvival and Nature and have spells that works well at long distance and survival.
Agreed. That is the beauty of the game. You can make a varied set of characters, even in one class. I guess I'm weird in wanting to make a check list of useful or needed stuff. As I tried to suggest, it's impossible for any one character to be that versatile.
As a forever GM I create opponent characters and ally characters but never player characters. The opponent characters are simplified, but the ally characters are build with the same rules as as player characters. Nevertheless, each ally character is build as a piece of the story rather than as an independent character, and having them underperform is perfectly natural.
For example, let's consider the NPC students at the Magaambya Academy in Strength of Thousands. Nine students lived in the same dormitory as the PCs and they each had a half-page description of their personalities and histories for social interactions. Ignaci Canterells, Okoro Obiyo, and Strands-of-Glowing-Dawn Tzeniwe had the opportunity to fight side by side with the PCs, so I created stat blocks for them.
Ignaci Canterells, Thaumaturge 2
Medium male human humanoid
Branch Emerald Boughs; Background Codebreaker; Heritage Versatile
Perception +8
Languages Common (Mwangi), Common (Taldoran), Elven
Skills Acrobatics +7, Arcana +8, Crafting +6, Cryptography Lore +6, Deception +7, Diplomacy +7, Esoteric Lore, Nature +4, Occultism +6, Religion +4, Society +6, Stealth +7, Thievery +7
Str +0, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +3
Items dagger, leather armor, lesser acid flask, lesser mud bomb, 2 elixir of life
Alchemical Formulae: acid flask, mud bomb, elixir of life, skeptic's elixir
Specialty Formula: forgetful ink (page 75)
Alchemical Crafting https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5117
Crystal Healing https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3773
Glean Contents https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2129
Divine Disharmony https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3700
AC 18; Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +6
HP 26
Speed 25 feet
Melee [one-action] +1 shortsword +8 (Agile, Finesse, Versatile S) Damage 1d6 piercing
Ranged [one-action] dagger (Agile, Finesse, Thrown 10 ft., Versatile S), Damage 1d4 piercing
Mirror Implement, Mirror's Reflection [one-action] https://2e.aonprd.com/Implements.aspx?ID=5
Scroll Thaumaturgy +7 https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3703
Wizard Dedication
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 16, attack +6
Cantrips (1st) frostbite, prestidigitation
Okoro Obiyo. Psychic 3
Medium male human
Branch Uzunjati; Background Spell Seeker; Heritage Versatile; Subconscious Mind Gathered Lore; Conscious Mind The Tangible Dream
Perception +7
Languages Common (Mwangi), Common (Taldoran), Fey, Gnoll, Undercommon (Sakvroth)
Skills Arcana +9, Athletics (expert) +9, Diplomacy +7, Library Lore +9, Nature +5, Occultism +9, Performance +7, Religion +5, Society +9, Stealth +5, Survival +5, Uzunjati Lore +9 and Untrained Improvisation +1
Str +2; Dex +0; Con +1; Int +4; Wis +0; Cha +2
Items dagger, staff
The Tangible Dream (Figment and Shield) https://2e.aonprd.com/ConsciousMinds.aspx?ID=5
Unleash Psyche
Gathered Lore: Recall the Teachings https://2e.aonprd.com/SubconsciousMinds.aspx?ID=2
Druid Dedication
Breath Control
Combat Climber
Recognize Spell
Untrained Improvisation
AC 29; Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +7
HP 29
Speed 25 feet
Melee staff +7 (Two-Hand 1d8) Damage 1d4+2 bludgeoning
Melee dagger +7 (agile, Finesse, Thrown 10 ft., Versatile S) Damage 1d4+2 piercing
Melee Spell imaginary weapon +9 (one-shot) Damage 3d8 bludgeoning or slashing //Critical: push
Ranged dagger +5 (agile, Finesse, Thrown 10 ft., Versatile S) Damage 1d4+2 piercing
Occult Spontaneous Spells DC 19, attack +9
Focus Pool 2
2nd (1/day) mind games https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=859
1st (2/day) color spray, pocket library, soothe, summon construct
Cantrips (2nd) detect magic, figment (amp), imaginary weapon (amp) light, message, phase bolt 4d4, shield (amp),
Primal Prepared Spells DC 15, attack +5
Cantrips (1st) light, prestidigitation
Ancestry feat: Tupilaq Carver (occult rather than primal)
Skill feat background: Recognize Spell
Skill feat 2nd: Combat Climber
Psychic feat 2nd: Druid Dedication
General feat Versatile: Breath Control
Geneal feat 3rd: Untrained Improvisation
Strands-of-Glowing-Dawn Tzeniwe, Investigator 2
Medium female anadi
Branch Emerald Boughs; Background Barrister; Heritage Polychromatic Anadi; Methodology Alchemical Sciences
Perception +7
Languages Common (Mwangi), Elven, Fey, Gnoll, Iruxi
Skills Arcana +8, Atheltics +5, Crafting (expert) +10, Deception +5, Diplomacy +5, Emerald Boughs Lore +8, Intimidation +5, Legal Lore +8, Nature +5, Performance +5, Religion +5, Society +8, Stealth +6, Survival +5, Thievery +6
Str +1, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +1, Cha +1
Items quilted armor, goz mask, bladed scarf, sab, shortbow (10 arrows), alchemist's kit, formula book (elixir of life, glow rod, leaper's elixir, eagle-eye elixir, smoke ball), 4 versatile vials, spellbook
On the Case
Devise a Stratagem
Strategic Strike 1d6
Trap Finding
Wizard Dedication (Magaambya School)
Alchemical Crafting and Quick Tincture
Group Impression
Impressive Performance
Magical Crafting
Specialty Crafting in weaving
AC 16; Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +7
HP 24
Speed 25 feet
Melee bladed scarf +6 (disarm, finesse, reach, sweep, trip) Damage 1d6+1 slashing + Strategic Strike
Melee sap +5 (agile, nonlethal) Damage 1d6+1 bludgeoning + Strategic Strike
Ranged shortbow (deadly d10, range increment 60 ft.) Damage 1d6 piercing + Strategic Strike
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 18, attack +8
Cantrips (1st) prestidigitation, safeguard cloth (homebrew)
Ancestry Feat 1: Web Weaver (gives silk making and Specialty Crafting in weaving)
Investigator Feat 1: Trap Finding
Investigator Feat 2: Wizard Dedication
Let's compare them to Kilraq Starlight's standards.
1. Maximum KAS (when appropriate)
"When appropriate" is a strange qualifier on a "MUST have" feature.
Ignaci has Cha +3. That is not maximum. Instead, he needed to fill a rogue-like niche due to his backstory as a revolutionary, so I had to split his ability boosts to also provide Dex +3. Okoro has Int +4, the maximum. As a psychic, he could have either Int or Cha as his key ability score. Since he was quite intellectual, I went with Int. Tzeniwe has Int +4. She started with the intelligence, and then I selected a non-spellcasting class that used intelligence as its key ability score. She is learning spellcasting at the academy rather than knowing it beforehand.
2. Best save scores possible for build.
Nope, I use the defaults for the class.
3. Good Reactions
4. Good Free Actions
Having a reaction ability and a free-action ability are great for optimizing the action economy, but these features seldom matter when PCs and allies work together, so they have no value to me.
5. A Stance of some kind.
A stance is an action tool: useful, dramatic and iconic. Such features are excellent for NPC allies, but they don't fit the classes of Ignaci, Okoro, and Tzeniwe.
6. Access to spellcasting of some kind (unless well covered by party)
Ordinarily, adding spellcasting to a character of a non-spellcasting class takes too much effect, thereby reducing their other strengths. However, Ignaci, Okoro, and Tzeniwe are students as a school of arcane and primal magic, so of course they are branching out into arcane or primal spellcasting.
7. At least expert in Stealth
I agree on the value of Stealth. Ignaci's backstory led to training in both Stealth and Thievery. Tzeniwe's backstory as a legal clerk and mother did not favor stealth, but she had so many skills as an investigator, that she did train in Stealth. Likewise Okoro trained Stealth, but since his backstory said, "Okoro is a natural athlete who excelled at aquatic sports in Senghor and now enjoys footraces and kickball in Nantambu," his first expert skill is Athletics.
8. The ability to Recall Knowledge at some skill level.
The Magaambya Academy emphasizes training in Arcana and Nature.
9. Fleet, Toughness, Cunning Acumen
Nope, not important.
10. 3 useful focus spells (if possible)
Ignaci and Tzeniwe are too busy learning arcane cantrips from Wizard Multiclass Dedication to think about focus spells. Okoro is a psychic so he is starting with an ample focus pool.
11. A ranged or melee backup option.
Teenaged Ignaci was a courier rather than a combatant as a revolutionary, so his weapons are a dagger and alchemical bombs. Okoro and Tzeniwe had even less danger in their backstories, but Tzeniwe does use a bladed scarf as a weapon, more sophisticated than a dagger.
12. A ranged "third action" option. Bon Mot, Intimidation, Trip, Grapple, Shove, etc.
Tzeniwe trained in Intimidation as part of herding her children. Ignaci and Okoro have not had to optimize their actions yet.
13. Flight or Air Walk
These are much higher level than my NPCs can manage. Teacher Takenhot teaches a class named Flight School at the academy, but I have not created her stat block.
14. Maximum AC per level
This is vital for adventurers, but spellcasters do have some trouble reaching the maximum, so my non-adventuring students missed the importance of maximizing AC. Tzeniwe did sew her own quilted armor out of her own silk.
15. When possible, Acrobat dedication
Why?
16. Access to Invisible & See Invisible
The students are still too low level for that, but they will gain it in the future.
17. When possible, ability to see through concealment
Only a few classes, such as ranger, have this option.
18. A teammate buff option (passive, active or reactive, as an option)
It will come with further spellcasting.
19. Medicine + Battle Medicine OR lay on hands (if no one else is bringing healing). (Alternative is Kinetistic healing when getting a stance)
Sadly, an encounter on page 52 of Kindled Magic, makes the PCs more important if Okoro and Tzeniwe were untrained in Medicine, so I avoided that training. Otherwise, Tzeniwe would definitely be trained in Medicine. Ignaci ended up with Alchemical Crafting and Crystal Healing as an alternative to Medicine.
20. Linguistic skills (languages, speak to "X", Truespeech, etc)
The high intelligence of the students gave them more starting languages than average. They are too low level for features like truespeech.
This list does highlight the difference between professional adventurers and the NPC allies who are not professional adventurers. Ignaci had a role in a revolution, so he was adventuring for a while, but he expected to avoid further adventuring before he graduates. Tzeniwe performed a little detective work on the side when she was a legal secretary. She retired from that when she became a mother but does try to stay prepared. Okoro never adventured.
Their lack of optimized adventuring features is part of their characterization. The party would be more likely to approach the NPC allies as study partners in their classes rather than as combat partners in their misadventures. And some of my players are also emphasizing the student life of their PCs rather than the adventuring life and making similar builds. The players themselves have the ability to invent tactical uses of mundane abilities, so this is not a weakness.
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1. A fun character concept that is largely supported by the game mechanics.
That's pretty much it for me.
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1. A fun character concept that is largely supported by the game mechanics.
That's pretty much it for me.
What do you mean by "largely supported by the game mechanics"?
Man, that's a lot, your characters will always look the same with such a list.
Personally:
- Maxed attack skill.
- If possible, maxed KAS (if not the attack skill).
- No save left behind when increasing attributes every 5 levels (if I have Bulwark I don't increase Dexterity).
- Some out of combat abilities, in general skills.
- In general, high Charisma or Intelligence.
- In general, a weird uncommon build that no one else is playing.That was my point, it's too much for one character, these are the things I try to put into a character, mechanically. Basically it's impossible to have them all in one character. Nor would it be good if you could. (Not sure I was clear on that point)
I like your priority list. Clean and efficient.
I hadn't actually written up a list before now, but I realized as I was reading your list that I actually have a seemingly similar structure and goals when designing a PF2e character.
Regarding Ability Scores:
-Max KAS or relevant offensive ability score
-Ideal ability scores for L1 AC (varied based on armor type)
-Increases to all saving throw ability scores at every ability score increase from leveling (disregarding Dexterity in the case of heavy armor)
Regarding Actions:
-At least one reliable reaction
-At least two reliable third actions
Regarding Access to Important Solutions:
-Access to a ranged attack option
-Access to a non-magical attack option
-Access to a non-weapon attack option
-Access to flight (can be solved via items)
-Access to methods of fighting invisible opponents (can be solved via items)
Regarding Arbitrary Things I Like to Take on Many Characters:
-A way to reach 3 Focus Points and do something useful with them
-Legendary Acrobatics (for Kip Up and Legendary Cat Fall)
-Some combination of "the good" General Feats
---Toughness
---Diehard
---Fast Recovery
---Fleet
---Canny Acumen
---Shield Block
---Incredible Initiative
---Ancestral Paragon
---Numb to Death
---Incredible Scout
---Incredible Investiture
-Healing options
---Battle Medicine
---Lay on Hands
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What do you mean by "largely supported by the game mechanics"?1. A fun character concept that is largely supported by the game mechanics.
That's pretty much it for me.
I mean whether or not the game mechanics allow me to convey the awesomeness of my character concept to others with little to no effort on my part. If they do, then they largely support it. If they don't, or require much more effort than descriptive changes to get to function in the way my character concept requires, then they don't support it.
Does that help to answer your question?
Before you make a list like this I would think about what it is about the game that is actually fun to you.
That will inform your list.
I tend to make class builds that fulfill a theme.
Then when I have a character idea, I look through my builds and see what parts of them could bring that character to life. I always strive to be effective and efficient, if your good at nothing else be good at combat as it's usually the only thing that failing will be game over.
Being below curve in something, AC, saves, etc is painful but if it allows me to get something that I feel defines my character then so be it. Though if it's a sacrifice of more then one or two points I likely won't consider playing it.
Key requirements are AC, saves, KAS and fulfilling what ever role or roles I want the character to do.
How do I create characters?
1. Decide group role: This is what we do first in my group. We have to decide what role within the group we will play. Generally, roles are healing, front-line/melee, ranged, and magic support. Something along those lines often spread between multiple characters with melee or ranged combat and healing being two priorities.
2. Once group role decided, come up with a concept thematically and mechanically. I don't want to play a cleric with divine font every time. So if I'm playing a healer, I want to come up with some unique healer that I will enjoy that can do other things, especially important in PF2. If I a melee, am I pure damage like a rogue or am I a control melee like a slamdown fighter or melee monk.
Then I have to come up with a cool concept with personality or backstory. I can't play a character without some idea of who they are and why they do what they do.
3. Mechanics: If healer, you want casting stat and wisdom high for Medicine. If a rogue, you want Dex or your main combat stat high and Wisdom, Con, then you can mix it up a bit to ensure skills are good.
Max Combat Stat
Boosts in secondary stat of importance such as Wisdom for Medicine or Charisma if focusing on a social skill.
Boosts to save, AC, and hit point stats
Skills: One escape skill like Acrobatics or Athletics.
Acrobatics you want to Master for Kip up.
Stealth trained at least
Build up a skill depending on party role and complementary stat.
Medicine is a priority for healer
Feats and spells to support party role and combat with some non-combat utility depending on group aggregate abilities.
4. Adjust as needed for fun and group need.
Thanks for the good feedback and ideas everyone. I agree with Easl comment, this is a white room kind of list. And it is completely removed from the RP element, which is why my list has lots of qualifiers and omission options. Also nice to see a kindred spirit in LunarVale.
As others have stated I believe theme is primary when making a character. I just like thinking out the full mechanics as well once I got my theme.
Things I find interesting about this is the idea of making a non- professional adventure as mused by Mathmuse. I like this. Not every character should be an optimized honed adventuring king. It's nice to see how Math could showcase this with my list. The design space of this game is pretty flexible in allowing for a variety of characters, even no professionals. (Btw, to answer your question about number 1, I was referencing classes like Thaumaturge, where you don't nessecarly need to focus on their class score.)
Thank you all again for the feedback. It's been fun reading this.