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The most popular means of obtaining an armor bonus without a dex limitation remains usage of the Mage Armor spell (perhaps with Ascendant Spell to obtain a +2 AC bonus from its mythic version) or Bracers of Armor, which can provide upwards of a +8 armor bonus without any dex-to-AC cap.
There's also the Haramaki. A +5 Harimaki is about half of the cost of +6 Bracers of Armor. The reason it doesn't get mentioned is because it still disables Monk AC bonus, and many unarmored builds dip Monk since it's really the only class that gives good unarmored support. But if you're not taking the Monk dip, Harimaki has no max dex bonus, no arcane spell failure chance, no armor check penalty, and even no penalty for using it without proficiency (since all that does is double the armor check penalty... which as mentioned is zero).
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If you are using the Mythic rules the champion path ability Armor Master eliminates the armor check, arcane spell failure and maximum dexterity bonus for armor. The first time you take it, it applies only to light armor. You can take the ability up to three times. The second time it applies to medium armor, and the third time to heavy armor.
I've seen many ways to increase the maximum dexterity bonus of a suit of armor, but no way to fully remove it. I'm wondering if there is any way to remove this cap?
What are you actually trying to accomplish? If you tell us that we might be able to help you achieve that goal without doing the impossible (eliminating max dex bonus).
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There are three armors that do not have a max DEX bonus. Haramaki has already been mentioned, Silken ceremonial armor is pretty much identical, but more expensive. Varisian dancing scarves give a +2 armor bonus buy you have to move at least 10 feet or they provide no benefit, and provide a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff checks to feint in combat.
Darkleaf martial arts training gear has a +10 max DEX bonus. That does not eliminate it, but you would need a 32 or higher DEX to be affected by it.
Darkleaf martial arts training gear has a +10 max DEX bonus. That does not eliminate it, but you would need a 32 or higher DEX to be affected by it.
With a fighter's Armor training, this DEX could be even higher before being affected.
Nothing right now. I find the dex cap inconvient. I'm looking for options.I've seen many ways to increase the maximum dexterity bonus of a suit of armor, but no way to fully remove it. I'm wondering if there is any way to remove this cap?What are you actually trying to accomplish? If you tell us that we might be able to help you achieve that goal without doing the impossible (eliminating max dex bonus).
Inconvenient in what way?
Most characters wearing light armor wouldn't be bumping up against the max dex of their armors in the first place.
Not that their probably ways to go crazy to try and mix max the heck out of dex but I feel like you're really going out of your way to do it.
It can be done, with the series of 3 Mythic abilities mentioned earlier.
Most characters wearing light armor wouldn't be bumping up against the max dex of their armors in the first place.
A Dex-based character will be changing their preferred armor over the course of the game with respect to max dex bonus, so I can see the annoyance.
Presuming you start with 18 Dexterity at 1st level, that means you're good with a Chain Shirt. By 5th level you should be around 20 Dexterity so you need Mithral Chain shirt. By 10th level you should be round 24 Dexterity so Darkleaf Studded Leather is your ideal. By 15th level you'll be around 26 so Darkleaf Leather is what you want. But once you get to inherent bonuses at the highest levels your Dexterity could be 30+ at which point you're just using a Harimaki or Bracers of Armor.
Interestingly, a Dex-based Fighter with Armor training doesn't have the same problem. Until the very end of his career when inherent bonuses become available, Mithral Breastplate is his ideal.
It can be done, with the series of 3 Mythic abilities mentioned earlier.
Which is not particularly helpful, as most campaigns do not utilize mythic, and that's a huge part of your build devoted to this.
Let me elaborate, if it takes multiple mythic abilities it probably can't (and shouldn't) be done without mythic.
Let me elaborate, if it takes multiple mythic abilities it probably can't (and shouldn't) be done without mythic.
Mythic path powers have wildly varying quality. Some are indeed outrageously good, others are just okay, and some are quite bad and would be just fine as non-mythic abilities. I think this is a particularly bad mythic power, so I don't think "it's mythic" is a good argument for it being overpowered. Similarly, there's an argument to be made that the closest non-mythic equivalent ability (Armor Training) is relatively lackluster. Now, I personally think Armor Training is a bit underrated, but it's nowhere near as good as Weapon Training.
I think this is probably a case of niche partitioning. If the Fighter didn't exist, Paizo probably would have published a better way of handling max dex bonus, but with Fighter being a core class and Armor Training being one of its premier class features they didn't want to create something objectively better.
I partially agree with Java man, but Armor Mastery gives you more than just eliminating the max DEX bonus. It also eliminates arcane spell failure and the ACP. Plus also works on shields including tower shields. Those 3 path abilities would allow a DEX based arcane caster to use full plate and a shield while casting with no arcane spell failure and to be able to use his full DEX bonus.
There of specific armors that boosts the max DEX bonus above normal. Celestial Armor has a max DEX bonus of +8. It is fairly expensive, but a high level DEX based fighter would be good up till 36 DEX. Swift Armor Style would raise that to a DEX of 38. It is highly doubtful that any non-mythic character is going to get a DEX this high.
If you are homebrewing why not, simply house rule that armor does not have a max DEX bonus? I don’t see how anything you come up with is going to be balanced, so why even pretend it is.
It doesn't eliminate it, but Celestial Plate Armor lets you go pretty nuts, especially if you throw it on a Fighter or archetype that gets Armor Training. It's full plate armor +3, counts as Medium, and its max Dex bonus to AC starts at +6.
(the original was a 3.5e thing, but it's reprinted in the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover)
I want to know if it can be done. If it can't maybe I'll homebrew something.
I also want multiple options.
At this point, I'm a little confused. Are you the GM? Or are you a player? The above two statements seem to imply both sides of the gm screen.
The answer to "can it be done" has been listed in the few options others have stated. (Haramaki, bracers of armor, mythic abilities). That IS multiple options. Other than a few things that reduce ACP/Max Dex (masterwork, mithril, fighter class abilities, maybe some other obscure ones), there isn't anything that simply removes the max dex.
If for some reason those options are insufficient:
If you are the GM, just make your homebrew and be done with it.
If are a player, discuss it with your GM, accept their ruling (for good or ill) or use one of the listed options.
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It sounds like OmniMage is just curious. "Hey, anybody know of multiple ways to do this thing?"
Yes, I can explain how my 11th-level cleric wears fullplate with a max Dex of +9. Or theorycraft the best max-Dex armor for a rogue. However I don't think OmniMage has a specific build in mind. Rather, he is hoping that something will spark a build idea for him.
Another question. What is the cause of this dex bonus cap? I'm guessing its encumbrance. A medium load has a cap of +3, while heaving is +1.
It's based on the misconception that heavy armor was cumbersome and severely limited the wearer's mobility. In reality heavy armor is a relatively minor impediment to mobility and the dex limit isn't really justified by any realistic considerations.
From a game balance perspective it might be to keep dexterity under control, as stacking a high dexterity with heavy armor could result in extremely high AC's, but a Monk who quaffs a potion of Mage Armor is basically getting the equivalent of full plate without any impediment to their Dex bonus so it's hardly unprecedented.
From a game balance perspective it might be to keep dexterity under control, as stacking a high dexterity with heavy armor could result in extremely high AC's, but a Monk who quaffs a potion of Mage Armor is basically getting the equivalent of full plate without any impediment to their Dex bonus so it's hardly unprecedented.
But a potion has not only a gold cost and a time limit as a balance.....
But a potion has not only a gold cost and a time limit as a balance.....
The cost of a suit of full plate is 1,500 gp. The cost of a potion of Mage Armor is 50 gp. So for the price of the plate armor you can get 30 potions that last 1 hour each. In a lot of campaigns, that many potions will last you up until like 8th or 9th level.
And that's the expensive way to do it. If you have an arcane caster in the party, buy a wand and have them tag you with it. At a mere 15 gp per charge, you get 100 castings of Mage Armor for the price of non-masterwork full plate, which will almost certainly last you the entire campaign.
Unless your campaign only last about 2 weeks a single wand is not going to last anywhere near the entire campaign. Even if you only adventure for 8 hours a day, that works out to 12.5 days of protection. There may be a few times where you only need protection for an hour, but often you need to have it ready whenever the character is active. Arcane casters are often in the middle or back of the party being protected by the frontline fighters, so they may be able to survive needing to put up their defenses, but a full martial likely to get killed if they do that.
Unless your campaign only last about 2 weeks a single wand is not going to last anywhere near the entire campaign. Even if you only adventure for 8 hours a day, that works out to 12.5 days of protection. There may be a few times where you only need protection for an hour, but often you need to have it ready whenever the character is active. Arcane casters are often in the middle or back of the party being protected by the frontline fighters, so they may be able to survive needing to put up their defenses, but a full martial likely to get killed if they do that.
If you have a wizard in the party 1000gp gets you a pearl of power 1. So you can hand the wizard your pearl so that he can recall the mage armor he just cast on himself to cast on you. This is at his full caster level.
I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm saying it does have some balance built in
...is basically getting the equivalent of full plate without any impediment to their Dex bonus so it's hardly unprecedented.
Full Plate: AC +9
Mage Armor: AC +4So, not really. The correct comparison for a cost analysis is a chain shirt vs potions/wands/pearl of power.
Chain shirt cost 100gp
That's 2 potions of mage armor.
6.666 wand charges.
1/10 of a pearl of power.
The chain shirt is far more cost effective until your dex exceedds the +4 max dex. Drop another 100 to make it masterwork and your max dex goes to +5.
Unless your campaign only last about 2 weeks a single wand is not going to last anywhere near the entire campaign. Even if you only adventure for 8 hours a day, that works out to 12.5 days of protection. There may be a few times where you only need protection for an hour, but often you need to have it ready whenever the character is active. Arcane casters are often in the middle or back of the party being protected by the frontline fighters, so they may be able to survive needing to put up their defenses, but a full martial likely to get killed if they do that.If you have a wizard in the party 1000gp gets you a pearl of power 1. So you can hand the wizard your pearl so that he can recall the mage armor he just cast on himself to cast on you. This is at his full caster level.
That works much better than wands and potions. But at low levels it still leaves some unprotected time.
...is basically getting the equivalent of full plate without any impediment to their Dex bonus so it's hardly unprecedented.
Full Plate: AC +9
Mage Armor: AC +4So, not really. The correct comparison for a cost analysis is a chain shirt vs potions/wands/pearl of power.
Chain shirt cost 100gp
That's 2 potions of mage armor.
6.666 wand charges.
1/10 of a pearl of power.The chain shirt is far more cost effective until your dex exceedds the +4 max dex. Drop another 100 to make it masterwork and your max dex goes to +5.
Masterwork does not affect the maximum dexterity bonus it reduces the ACP, and it costs an extra 150 not 100. A mithral chain shirt will bump the max Dex bonus to +6, but it costs an extra 1,000 gold.
Masterwork does not affect the maximum dexterity bonus it reduces the ACP, and it costs an extra 150 not 100. A mithral chain shirt will bump the max Dex bonus to +6, but it costs an extra 1,000 gold.
Yep my mistake. I'm so used to going mithral chain shirt (masterwork automatically required) I messed up where the max dex bonus change comes from and just conflated the amount to the same as the ACP change. (And yep, my number off 100gp for mwk is wrong)
Unless your campaign only last about 2 weeks a single wand is not going to last anywhere near the entire campaign. Even if you only adventure for 8 hours a day, that works out to 12.5 days of protection.
If you are actively adventuring - as in seeking out and combating antagonists - then 8 hours of adventuring per day is a ludicrous exaggerations. If presume one encounter every 30 minutes on average, which is extremely conservative, then 8 hours per day over 12.5 days is 200 encounters. That's two or three campaigns!
Nobody is going to be using a consumable prebuff during a downtime day, or while traveling overland, or while attending a social encounter where combat is not expected. Sometimes that means you will be ambushed and will have to choose between spending a turn buffing or not having the buff. That is a downside, there will be cases you don't have your +4 Armor bonus. I've played low-level Wizards before, getting caught without Mage Armor active is a real thing and a legitimate downside. But it's very doable to have a 1 hour prebuff proactively active in most combat encounters.
Now, maybe in a wilderness exploration campaign this would be a problem. If you're spending 8 hours a day in dangerous wilderness where a combat encounter could happen at any time, but are often separated by hours, then this might be impractical. But in a typical campaign you're not spending 8 hours a day in situations where a challenging combat encounter could happen without notice.
Full Plate: AC +9
Mage Armor: AC +4
Monks also get to add their Wisdom bonus to AC, and a +5 Wisdom bonus to AC is hardly unreasonable by level 5 (16 + 2 racial + 2 enhancement).
At higher levels that Monk might have a +8 Wisdom modifier, which along with Mage Armor would be equivalent to +3 Full Plate.
Using consumables for your defense only works when you can accurately predict when combat will occur. What happens when you get attacked when you did not expect it? At low level your opponents attack bonus is not that high and they rarely have multiple attacks. As your level increases that changes.
Also when you are attacked without warning you don’t get your DEX bonus so that means you are even more vulnerable. In the case of a monk they do get their WIS bonus so are a little better off, but other classes do not have that advantage.
Most of the campaigns I have been in have always had a fair amount of unexpected combat. Fights break out even in social situations, the party gets attacked when resting or otherwise not expecting it.
Using consumables for your defense only works when you can accurately predict when combat will occur.
Which isn't too hard when dealing with a 1 hour duration.
About to enter the villain's fortress? Opening up the sealed entrance to a long forgotten ruin? Found monster tracks and fresh blood nearby? Pass a perception check and notice enemies waiting in ambush on the road up ahead?
I see players use 10 minutes/level prebuffs all the time and have them in effect in the vast majority of combat encounters. If I'm not actively trying to catch them by surprise, they will likely have those long-duration prebuffs active.
Also when you are attacked without warning you don’t get your DEX bonus so that means you are even more vulnerable. In the case of a monk they do get their WIS bonus so are a little better off, but other classes do not have that advantage.
Definitely, surprise rounds are deadly. And as you correctly note, Monks are better off than most in this respect. They also have very high perception (class skill plus Wisdom-based) so they are less likely to suffer a surprise round.
And if we're looking at this holistically, there is a third major category of AC beyond your total and flat-footed: touch. And Monks are unrivaled for touch AC. Mage Armor doesn't help there, but it isn't needed either.
Most of the campaigns I have been in have always had a fair amount of unexpected combat. Fights break out even in social situations, the party gets attacked when resting or otherwise not expecting it.
If the comparison is when resting, then the Monk who needs to take a full round action to pull out a potion and quaff it to get Mage Armor is way better off than the guy in plate mail who needs 4 minutes with someone else helping him to get his armor on. Nobody takes the Endurance feat, it's a bad feat, because the risk of being ambushed while asleep is not worth taking a full feat to guard against. Which kinda backs up my point; yeah, occasionally you will be caught unprepared but it's an acceptable risk.
If the comparison is when resting, then the Monk who needs to take a full round action to pull out a potion and quaff it to get Mage Armor is way better off than the guy in plate mail who needs 4 minutes with someone else helping him to get his armor on. Nobody takes the Endurance feat, it's a bad feat, because the risk of being ambushed while asleep is not worth...
A full plate dude can get dressed in a round with a potion of Serren's swift girding.
Most of my characters who wear armor heavier than light just spend the gold to have a set of chain shirt jammies.
If the comparison is when resting, then the Monk who needs to take a full round action to pull out a potion and quaff it to get Mage Armor is way better off than the guy in plate mail who needs 4 minutes with someone else helping him to get his armor on. Nobody takes the Endurance feat, it's a bad feat, because the risk of being ambushed while asleep is not worth...A full plate dude can get dressed in a round with a potion of Serren's swift girding.
Most of my characters who wear armor heavier than light just spend the gold to have a set of chain shirt jammies.
There is also Restful Armor
A bit pricy for just the keep your AC while sleeping part. Even a bit pricy compared to a ring of sustenance for the only 2 hours of rest required effect - but doesn't take up any additional equipment slots.
In reality almost all medium or heavy armor includes padding worn underneath. Wearing chain or plate without padding is useless, and in some cases may be worse than not wearing any armor.
In the campaigns I play in we have a house rule that wearing the padding acts as padded armor. Also depending on the armor you may also be able to wear part of the armor and gain some benefit from the armor. The most obvious example is chainmail, being able to be reduced to a chain shirt.