I'm the only one that finds the Kineticist Dedication to be a little lacksluter?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I'm not speaking about the multiclass archetype as a whole since I feel its probably one of the better ones just from the sheer amount of utility options you can get from it, but if we speak about just the dedication I find it surprisingly weak.

First, it doesn't grant a skill proficiency like (AFAIK) every other multiclass dedication does. Second, it gives you a non-scaling elemental blast when most of the caster dedications give you two cantrips that scale normally (and unless you are a kineticist yourself they are way better options than an elemental blast even when taking the lower proficiency scaling in both). I get don't using an elemental blast or stance impulse when using channel elements, it makes total sense and its not the only multiclass dedication that gives you a lesser version of a class feature, but the rest of restrictions IMO really don't make much sense.

I feel the dedication should, at least, give you base kinesis too since that's effectively a cantrip-level feature and that + elemental blast would work as the "two cantrips" of this dedication. The elemental blast should probably also scale normally and not require you to take multiple feats to scale appropiately. If Paizo didn't want characters to go around making two-action elemental blasts that add both their Strength and Constitution modifiers to damage until their higher weapon / spell proficiencies kick in they could have nerfed the elemental blast in other way, such as not allowing you to make a two-action elemental blast and / or reducing the damage die size by one step. That or make it scale at 1/2 your level since that's how base kinesis also does it for multiclass kineticists.

Do you agree with this?


I'll agree that the base dedication is a bit on the weak side, and not something I'd ever take by itself. Long-term it's a feat tax. Short-term, it gives you a solid ranged attack that you can make with your Con, and that's pretty useful for some classes/builds.

Packaging in a basic level of skill at Nature wouldn't have hurt anything, but I feel like packaging in Base kinesis might be a bit much, because of some of the niche effects - like, Base Kinesis (water) can arguably be used to provide drinking water for even a moderate crowd of people (as long as they're willing to line up and drink it from your hands). I at least can understand why they'd make that its own feat.

It doesn't really bug me much, but I admit that's mostly because the characters I'm interested in playing do not qualify for the archetype.


Hmmm...that looks correct.

I'm guessing the devs expect archetype kineticists to mostly rely on Through the Gate? Many of the level 1-2 damage dealing impulses scale quite well and can be used pretty much throughout your career. Boomerang, Tremor, Flying Flame, Magnetic Pinions, Tidal Hands, Hail of Splinters...literally every element has one.

No idea on why they didn't include trained in Nature in the package.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Packaging in a basic level of skill at Nature wouldn't have hurt anything, but I feel like packaging in Base kinesis might be a bit much, because of some of the niche effects - like, Base Kinesis (water) can arguably be used to provide drinking water for even a moderate crowd of people (as long as they're willing to line up and drink it from your hands). I at least can understand why they'd make that its own feat.

The problem I have with base kinesis is that all the multiclass kineticists I wanted to make since RoE released always find themselves asking "Do I take [very cool 1st or 2nd-level impulse that offers great utility and versatility to my character] or the Base Kinesis feat which is 100% flavor and something really cool you can do but that's it?". Base kinesis is IMO like the prestidigitation spell; it pretty much doesn't do anything but those little quirky effects are really cool to set yourself as a spellcaster, or kineticist in the case of base kinesis, so making it compete against stuff that is in 90% of the scenarios way more useful makes it so that most multiclass kineticist would ignore it most of the time, which is kinda lame if you ask me since being able to generate or have some control over your element is like something really basic that has access to a kineticist element should be able to do IMO.

For example, why would an elemental instinct barbarian (ignoring the fact that they can't use impulses unless they are raging, let's assume they can for the sake of this argument since I think that was the original intention) that has the wood element take the Base Kinesis feat over Through the Gate and take hardwood armor? The former pretty much allows them to create wood, which is really flavorful and useful for certain situations, while the latter literally gives you a very flavorful armor and an infinite stash of wooden shields that auto-scale + Shield Block. Why would a rogue ever take the Base Kinesis feat when they could take Air Cushion and jump through roofs without fear of falling and breaking their knees, Four Winds to get their allies on flanking position, or Whisper in the Wind to communicate with the group while scouting ahead? These are just a few examples of what I'm trying to say here.


I can't think of a good reason why it doesn't provide at least one trained skill like other multiclass archetypes do.

For Elemental Blast not scaling, that is obviously deliberate since it also provides the Improved Elemental Blast feat (and mentions it in the dedication) that will increase the damage of Elemental Blast. My thought on that is that Elemental Blast is not balanced with the intent of competing against cantrips since Elemental Blast can be done with one action and damage cantrips pretty much always need two actions. It is instead balanced against Strike and is competing with things like Weapon Improviser Dedication and Improved Pummel.

So instead of nerf'ing Elemental Blast by not allowing the 2-action version, I would suspect that if the damage automatically scaled, then the restriction would be to prevent the 1-action version and make it more fully comparable to a cantrip.


Probably only allow the two-action elemental blast but without adding Con to damage? I certainly would prefer that than having to take 5 feats to make elemental blast "viable" (by the point you have to take Expert Kinetic Control elemental blasts have been obsolete for a while).


exequiel759 wrote:
Probably only allow the two-action elemental blast but without adding Con to damage? I certainly would prefer that than having to take 5 feats to make elemental blast "viable" (by the point you have to take Expert Kinetic Control elemental blasts have been obsolete for a while).

Yeah, seems like a poor investment given the alternatives. For feats at 8, 14, 18 used to bump up EB you could instead have (using Water as an example) Winter Sleet, Driving Rain or Torrent in the Blood, and then Call the Hurricane. So by the time you get your single action EB up to 4d6, your 2a cone Tidal Hands is doing 9d8 and your 2a emanation Hurricane is doing 11d8. I think I'd take either over 1a 4d6 blast, but in fact you can afford both, plus more for that EB build cost.


The question the game designers have to answer, though, is "would everyone prefer that change?"

Or are there instead character design builds that would prefer a 1-action ranged damage option? Such as a spellcaster dipping into Kineticist Archetype to get exactly that.


Finoan wrote:

The question the game designers have to answer, though, is "would everyone prefer that change?"

Or are there instead character design builds that would prefer a 1-action ranged damage option? Such as a spellcaster dipping into Kineticist Archetype to get exactly that.

...or a level 2 barbarian.

Scaling only matters once you get high enough level to actually scale. Over in PFS-land, some of us just never get that far.


If you pay attention, this is not something exclusive to the kineticist archetype. If you compare just the dedication feats you will find a wide variation from very good feats to very bad feats.

In fact, the feeling I have is that the whole thing is based on the function of the archetype as a whole, after all, in the vast majority of them you need to get 3 feats to free up access to another archetype.

For example, the fighter archetype is known as one of the worst dedications within the archetypes. Even so, many players pick it up for the feats it provides. While other archetypes like the witch, psychic, sentinel, beastmaster/cavalier archetype are considered very good. But you still take them knowing that you will have to invest in other feats or you will be stuck with that archetype.

In general, the feeling I have is that there is much less care in balancing archetypes than in classes, for example, but this is partly done precisely because we know the limitations of the core (special) mechanics of archetypes already limit them a lot, in addition Many of them are more themed than power/flexibility boosts.

Anyway, returning to the kineticist archetype, whoever takes this archetype knows that it is limited to the kineticist class DC and that therefore no offensive impulse of attack or save will be able to stand out, instead the dedication kind of works as a kind of TAX to gain access to the most powerful impulses, and things like Elemental Blast are a kind of bonus that can be useful from time to time in some exceptional situation.

Dark Archive

YuriP wrote:

If you pay attention, this is not something exclusive to the kineticist archetype. If you compare just the dedication feats you will find a wide variation from very good feats to very bad feats.

In fact, the feeling I have is that the whole thing is based on the function of the archetype as a whole, after all, in the vast majority of them you need to get 3 feats to free up access to another archetype.

For example, the fighter archetype is known as one of the worst dedications within the archetypes. Even so, many players pick it up for the feats it provides. While other archetypes like the witch, psychic, sentinel, beastmaster/cavalier archetype are considered very good. But you still take them knowing that you will have to invest in other feats or you will be stuck with that archetype.

In general, the feeling I have is that there is much less care in balancing archetypes than in classes, for example, but this is partly done precisely because we know the limitations of the core (special) mechanics of archetypes already limit them a lot, in addition Many of them are more themed than power/flexibility boosts.

Anyway, returning to the kineticist archetype, whoever takes this archetype knows that it is limited to the kineticist class DC and that therefore no offensive impulse of attack or save will be able to stand out, instead the dedication kind of works as a kind of TAX to gain access to the most powerful impulses, and things like Elemental Blast are a kind of bonus that can be useful from time to time in some exceptional situation.

It is exclusive to the kineticist, as compared to the other multiclass archetype dedication feats.

Every other multiclass archetype dedication feat grants at least one, occasionally two, skill trainings.


Honestly I don't care that much about one extra trained skill. Specially for a MC archetype that only requires +2 Con.

Yet probably this was a typo and the designers forgot to add Nature as extra trained skill.


RoE has a ton of typos and little mistakes like that which is likely due to them rushing the book for the Remaster (even when RoE was made before Paizo even thought about making a remaster, they had to pretty much went through all the book again to change terminology and names to fit with the remaster).

Btw, I don't think Kineticist Dedication is a weak dedication because when compared to a ton of archetypes even when I find it kinda lackluster it still is okay-ish, but when compared to multiclass dedications which are usually a step above most other dedications I find it hella inconsistent.

The problem I have with that is, since this is technically remaster content already, I don't see Paizo ever going back to RoE to fix this kind of stuff, much less so them giving you Base Kinesis in the dedication or something like that. They also really don't have the pressure to fix the dedication since most people find the archetype as a whole to be really strong, so I kinda assume the dedication is going to remain being bad for the rest of time pretty much.


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exequiel759 wrote:
The problem I have with that is, since this is technically remaster content already, I don't see Paizo ever going back to RoE to fix this kind of stuff, much less so them giving you Base Kinesis in the dedication or something like that. They also really don't have the pressure to fix the dedication since most people find the archetype as a whole to be really strong, so I kinda assume the dedication is going to remain being bad for the rest of time pretty much.

I expect that RoE will get a errata pass at some point. Let's recall that Paizo actually implemented a "and now we can make errata even without a reprinting" policy... shortly before the whole OGL thing became a thing. So... they haven't exactly had the spare time and cycles to really follow up on that policy recently.

Like, yeah, it's true. RoE *does* have a bunch of needs-errata issues. It's also basically functional. People are happy about it. (I sure am.) So it's not time-critical.

Here's the way I see it going.

- Paizo finishes coughing out the core remaster books, taking however long that takes.
- Paizo finishes shuffling people around and dealing with stuff so that they can relax a bit from the breakneck pace that they've been running lately by cramming the remaster books into the middle of an already existing publication schedule. They take the time to re-establish sanity.
- Somewhere in here, the Archives of Nethys gets the time it needs to deal with the massive additional remaster-related workload.
- Paizo, now that everything is not on panic-mode, starts to work on the errata for All The Things. That's going to include errata for bringing more stuff up to date with the Remaster, sure, but it's also going to involve stuff like RoE being broken in various ways. They take their time on this one, because it's not a rush, and because getting it right is more important than getting it now.-
- The errata in question gets published.

My guess? I hope for it some time this year. I acknowledge that it might be next year, if scheduling is an issue and the pressure doesn't let up, or if More Stuff Happens. I hope that it isn't later than that... though that's at least partially because it would suggest that the Stuff that Happened was actually really bad.


I am 100% sure that Kineticist is missing their skill training. Simply because in the Remastered Player Core 1, all the Multiclass Archetypes have retained their skill proficiency they received from the original Core. So in the Rage of Elements Errata i have made a note that this is most likely an error but we will not fully know untill the book War of Immortals is released.

Where we will be receiving two brand new classes the Animist and Exemplar, which may not have skill training with their multiclass but I assume since they both get Religion that they will retain that in their multiclass but we won't 100% know till then.

However if we are talking about the multiclass for Kineticist it is actually EXTREMELY potent when it comes to defensive or supporting play styles. You got the Earth, Metal & Wood armor. Water for healing, Wood for protector tree (Timber Sentinel) which just makes low levels annoying to deal with as the DM.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:
However if we are talking about the multiclass for Kineticist it is actually EXTREMELY potent when it comes to defensive or supporting play styles. You got the Earth, Metal & Wood armor. Water for healing, Wood for protector tree (Timber Sentinel) which just makes low levels annoying to deal with as the DM.

I know (I said so myself in the original post) that's why we are talking about the dedication here. I also don't think that it is justified to have a really shitty dedication even if the archetype as a whole is fantastic, more so when the changes I'm proposing for an hyphothetical errata aren't really vertical upgrades but rather horizontal upgrades, if you know what I mean.


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I mean, a lot of multiclass dedications are themselves pretty weak. Like if you already have martial weapons training from your class, taking the fighter dedication gives you nothing except a skill training and "trained in fighter DC". This has been the case since the original CRB, and they haven't addressed it.

But the Kineticist dedication should probably give a skill training since that seems like an oversight.


Fair, but I think comparing the kineticist dedication to the fighter dedication is like comparing a Mustang with with a gas-powered car from the early 1900s; its been a while since those were a thing and we clearly improved upon that (even when I would argue most of the CRB dedications are probably among the best in the system, fighter being the weird one). Just the thaumaturge dedication and psychic dedication, the most recent multiclass dedications after kineticist, are way better. In fact, the psychic dedication is probably one of the best dedications in the system.


exequiel759 wrote:
Fair, but I think comparing the kineticist dedication to the fighter dedication is like comparing a Mustang with with a gas-powered car from the early 1900s; its been a while since those were a thing and we clearly improved upon that (even when I would argue most of the CRB dedications are probably among the best in the system, fighter being the weird one). Just the thaumaturge dedication and psychic dedication, the most recent multiclass dedications after kineticist, are way better. In fact, the psychic dedication is probably one of the best dedications in the system.

If by "best" you mean "most powerful", yes. That's been a problem in some places, actually.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

exequiel759 wrote:
Fair, but I think comparing the kineticist dedication to the fighter dedication is like comparing a Mustang with with a gas-powered car from the early 1900s; its been a while since those were a thing and we clearly improved upon that

Strictly speaking among all the options you mentioned, Fighter Dedication is the one with the most recent printing.


Squiggit wrote:
Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

It's a bit overtuned in combination with Starlit Span. The fact that it gives both a focus point and a cantrip is a bit much.

I'm not calling for it to be nerfed or anything... but I can see why Paizo might have decided that they needed to correct back the other way.


Squiggit wrote:

Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

exequiel759 wrote:
Fair, but I think comparing the kineticist dedication to the fighter dedication is like comparing a Mustang with with a gas-powered car from the early 1900s; its been a while since those were a thing and we clearly improved upon that
Strictly speaking among all the options you mentioned, Fighter Dedication is the one with the most recent printing.

Stricly speaking, yes, but I'd argue that Paizo probably didn't have the time to properly rework them since I don't think Paizo inteds for a general feat to be more effective than a dedication, so if they just copy-pasta'ed them into PC1 I would say they really aren't "new".


Squiggit wrote:
Strictly speaking among all the options you mentioned, Fighter Dedication is the one with the most recent printing.

LOL. Indeed. Well, tied with Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Rogue, Witch, and Wizard Dedications.

IMO, Witch and Oracle Dedications also fall a bit on the anemic side. Not by enough to complain about though barring any penalizing pedantic rulings by a GM.

Liberty's Edge

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

It's a bit overtuned in combination with Starlit Span. The fact that it gives both a focus point and a cantrip is a bit much.

I'm not calling for it to be nerfed or anything... but I can see why Paizo might have decided that they needed to correct back the other way.

The Psychic MC Dedication is open to both CHA and INT PCs. It gives an improved cantrip, a strong focus spell AND a focus point.

No other MC dedication feat compares to this.


The Raven Black wrote:

The Psychic MC Dedication is open to both CHA and INT PCs. It gives an improved cantrip, a strong focus spell AND a focus point.

No other MC dedication feat compares to this.

Also has neutral/cool/easily adaptable theme which has neither real restrictions nor anathema.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

It's a bit overtuned in combination with Starlit Span. The fact that it gives both a focus point and a cantrip is a bit much.

I'm not calling for it to be nerfed or anything... but I can see why Paizo might have decided that they needed to correct back the other way.

The Psychic MC Dedication is open to both CHA and INT PCs. It gives an improved cantrip, a strong focus spell AND a focus point.

No other MC dedication feat compares to this.

The rogue archetype feat is on the same level as psychic. Almost every class builds up Dex to 14 save for maybe a few heavy armor wearers.

Rogue archetype gives many amazing abilities and low level feats like Mobility, Gang Up by 12, and Opportune backstab by 16. Then Deny advantage, access to master reflex saves, and 1d6 sneak attack if using a weapon like that. Unless I'm missing something, Opportune Backstab works with a Greatword or any weapon. It's trigger is not limited to finesse or agile weapons. It is definitely worth a level 16 feat for any melee martial class.

Then toss in the ability to greatly build up skills.

I take the rogue archetype more often than the psychic on a large variety of characters. Psychic is very limited to poaching imaginary weapon for a magus. Otherwise it doesn't provide much else you can't get some other way.


Psychic archetype gives you access to Strain Mind at 12th level can effectively be infinite focus points for certain classes (inexorable iron magus in particular is really good with it due to sustaining steel, and if the animist remains similar to its playtest counterpart in the final release I remember them having really good free healing with one of their focus spells they can sustain, the exemplar too).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

IMO any character that is already investing in Int or Cha can find great pickups in Psychic, and that's even more true now with casting proficiency becoming global. Non-casters can pick up (Amped) Shield for defense, Amped Warp Step for maneuverability, or Amped Guidance/Message for excellent team support. Casters can grab any of those, plus Amped Frostbite and Amped Telekinetic Projectile are pretty good damaging focus spells.

Feats are a little thin unless you want extra cantrips but almost everyone can benefit from resistance to mental damage, weapon users might get good value from Psi Strikes, and then there's Parallel Breakthrough to grab another of the above Amped cantrips or one of the Surface cantrips.

I like the Rogue archetype too, but Psychic offers a lot more than just Imaginary Weapon.


exequiel759 wrote:
Psychic archetype gives you access to Strain Mind at 12th level can effectively be infinite focus points for certain classes (inexorable iron magus in particular is really good with it due to sustaining steel, and if the animist remains similar to its playtest counterpart in the final release I remember them having really good free healing with one of their focus spells they can sustain, the exemplar too).

Strain Mind is not bad for an extra focus point over 3 once per hour for the cost of 4 x level hit points.


tiornys wrote:

IMO any character that is already investing in Int or Cha can find great pickups in Psychic, and that's even more true now with casting proficiency becoming global. Non-casters can pick up (Amped) Shield for defense, Amped Warp Step for maneuverability, or Amped Guidance/Message for excellent team support. Casters can grab any of those, plus Amped Frostbite and Amped Telekinetic Projectile are pretty good damaging focus spells.

Feats are a little thin unless you want extra cantrips but almost everyone can benefit from resistance to mental damage, weapon users might get good value from Psi Strikes, and then there's Parallel Breakthrough to grab another of the above Amped cantrips or one of the Surface cantrips.

I like the Rogue archetype too, but Psychic offers a lot more than just Imaginary Weapon.

I don't know. I don't see much else.

Amped Shield isn't worth the investment. Maybe a sorcerer or magus picking up Strain Mind for more focus point spells might not be bad.

You only get the surface cantrip. It doesn't have near as many quality feats as the rogue.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't know. I don't see much else.

Amped Shield isn't worth the investment. Maybe a sorcerer or magus picking up Strain Mind for more focus point spells might not be bad.

You only get the surface cantrip. It doesn't have near as many quality feats as the rogue.

I default to Guidance or Warp Step on most builds; Shield is more often a stepping stone to Imaginary Weapon than a first pick. I agree there aren't as many quality feats as Rogue. Psychic is an archetype you snag 3-4 feats from and then go to something else. Often Rogue.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd like if maybe (as well as the Nature which does just make sense) they removed the 14th level feat to improve Elemental Blast and instead had you just auto-get an extra die no matter what at 13th level. That way you make it slightly less work to get the 4d8 blast (I mean, it's still costing you the Dedication, an 8th level feat and an 18th level feat, so it's far from nothing) whilst making the deduction feel a bit less nothing without making it really all that awesome.


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Eldritch Yodel wrote:
I'd like if maybe (as well as the Nature which does just make sense) they removed the 14th level feat to improve Elemental Blast and instead had you just auto-get an extra die no matter what at 13th level. That way you make it slightly less work to get the 4d8 blast (I mean, it's still costing you the Dedication, an 8th level feat and an 18th level feat, so it's far from nothing) whilst making the deduction feel a bit less nothing without making it really all that awesome.

The main problem I have with the archetype's elemental blast is that it feels really bad after 7th level. Assuming you take Improved Elemental Blast to get you a 2d8 blast, you are dealing less damage than literally any cantrip in the game (18 points of damage assuming you hit with two one-action blasts, while something like gouging claw in a single hit deals 17.5 + 5 persistent bleed, needle darts deals 15 average damage but is more accurate, etc. and these cantrips require just the dedication while this elemental blast requires 3 feats). Before the higher level proficiencies kick in I'd say the archetype's elemental blast is an okay ranged option for melee martials and a good third action for casters, but it becomes obsolete really quick.

This was also said on another comment on this thread, but Improved Elemental Blast competes against stuff like Winter Sleet, Calcifying Sand, Thermal Nimbus, or even some of the more utility-oriented impulses like Return to the Sea, Plate in Treasure, or Igneogenesis.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
tiornys wrote:

IMO any character that is already investing in Int or Cha can find great pickups in Psychic, and that's even more true now with casting proficiency becoming global. Non-casters can pick up (Amped) Shield for defense, Amped Warp Step for maneuverability, or Amped Guidance/Message for excellent team support. Casters can grab any of those, plus Amped Frostbite and Amped Telekinetic Projectile are pretty good damaging focus spells.

Feats are a little thin unless you want extra cantrips but almost everyone can benefit from resistance to mental damage, weapon users might get good value from Psi Strikes, and then there's Parallel Breakthrough to grab another of the above Amped cantrips or one of the Surface cantrips.

I like the Rogue archetype too, but Psychic offers a lot more than just Imaginary Weapon.

I don't know. I don't see much else.

Amped Shield isn't worth the investment. Maybe a sorcerer or magus picking up Strain Mind for more focus point spells might not be bad.

You only get the surface cantrip. It doesn't have near as many quality feats as the rogue.

Notice that Strain Mind has triggers that link it to AMPs so it works when you are casting AMPs only. This doesn't mean that it's useless for sorcerers and others Focus Spell focused builds but you won't be able to cast other focus spell an additional time for example.

exequiel759 wrote:
Psychic archetype gives you access to Strain Mind at 12th level can effectively be infinite focus points for certain classes (inexorable iron magus in particular is really good with it due to sustaining steel, and if the animist remains similar to its playtest counterpart in the final release I remember them having really good free healing with one of their focus spells they can sustain, the exemplar too).

The other point it's not infinity focus like said by exequiel759, it's effectively only gives you one extra AMP per hour at cost of 4 times your spell rank in HP. Also you cannot use Sustaining Steel with focus spell it triggers only with spell slot spells.

A more safest way to get a lot of focus points is geting access to Divine Inspiration with a full focus recovery feat. It's for high level games but if you are planing to get Strain Mind at level 12 your are not to far to get access to level 8 spells. This is specially good if you have some money left and buy/craft this spell as a scroll effectively making a focus spell "mana potion" allowing you to continue to casting focus spell in an encounter at cost of a one turn recharging your focus pool.

Liberty's Edge

Deriven Firelion wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Psychic dedication is good and satisfying and gives access to some very neat tools. Wouldn't really call that a problem.

It's a bit overtuned in combination with Starlit Span. The fact that it gives both a focus point and a cantrip is a bit much.

I'm not calling for it to be nerfed or anything... but I can see why Paizo might have decided that they needed to correct back the other way.

The Psychic MC Dedication is open to both CHA and INT PCs. It gives an improved cantrip, a strong focus spell AND a focus point.

No other MC dedication feat compares to this.

The rogue archetype feat is on the same level as psychic. Almost every class builds up Dex to 14 save for maybe a few heavy armor wearers.

Rogue archetype gives many amazing abilities and low level feats like Mobility, Gang Up by 12, and Opportune backstab by 16. Then Deny advantage, access to master reflex saves, and 1d6 sneak attack if using a weapon like that. Unless I'm missing something, Opportune Backstab works with a Greatword or any weapon. It's trigger is not limited to finesse or agile weapons. It is definitely worth a level 16 feat for any melee martial class.

Then toss in the ability to greatly build up skills.

I take the rogue archetype more often than the psychic on a large variety of characters. Psychic is very limited to poaching imaginary weapon for a magus. Otherwise it doesn't provide much else you can't get some other way.

Sorry. I was not very clear.

I was talking about the dedication feat by itself rather than the whole archetype.

Liberty's Edge

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Base Kinesis (water) can arguably be used to provide drinking water for even a moderate crowd of people (as long as they're willing to line up and drink it from your hands).
[url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2126

Base Kinesis[/url] “has a range of 30 feet,” so the Water Base Kinesis could be used to fill containers. No need to drink from the Kineticist’s hands.


As far as Base Kinesis goes, Water and Wood are probably the most obviously useful, but all of them have some stuff you can do with them.


I'd say water is the most useful one since it (in theory) gives you an infinite supply of water to drink (not like food attrition is a thing that happens in this sytem, but I guess it has its uses). Wood with a very liberal GM I guess would technically allow you to create fruits or vegetables (most wood impulses are more "plant" than wood IMO) and I guess that would make it as useful as water since it would allow you to have infinte food. In most cases though, I guess infinite wood can be useful if you are a carpenter? certainly really cool and flavorful but not that useful.

If you have air (in theory) your allies can't suffocate or drown as you can literally create air in their lungs, earth also includes things like gems so I guess you could make cool jewelry (much like wood, very flavorful but not that useful in practice), with fire you could cook food everywhere (okay?), and metal can be okay-ish (like wood or earth) but can also probably be the best one if you take Plate in Treasure into consideration since that would allow you to eventually create infinite adamantine and thus fully deck everyone on the party with adamantine gear. Also, if your GM is really liberal with it, you can take Flashforge as a metal kineticist and create rations since those are adventuring gear. I don't think most GMs would allow that though, since the items you create with flashforge are explicitly made of metal, but I honestly would allow the kineticist themselves to eat those rations as I think its funny and flavorful.

Overall I find Base Kinesis to be flavorful but not that useful in practice (except for the Plate in Treasure combo). Food or water aren't a problem in the system, and even in survival campaigns I think its easier to just take Forager than to take Kineticist Dedication + Base Kinesis. Also, which is something people often ignore, is that if you are RAW with it technically you can't do much of anything that is mentioned in this post with Base Kinesis since the ability itself doesn't state you can do that, and I kinda have the feeling that Paizo doesn't intend for people to have an infinite water supply with it.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

Hey, they're iron rations of course a metal Kineticist can make them.

(/s of course)


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exequiel759 wrote:

I'd say water is the most useful one since it (in theory) gives you an infinite supply of water to drink (not like food attrition is a thing that happens in this sytem, but I guess it has its uses). Wood with a very liberal GM I guess would technically allow you to create fruits or vegetables (most wood impulses are more "plant" than wood IMO) and I guess that would make it as useful as water since it would allow you to have infinte food. In most cases though, I guess infinite wood can be useful if you are a carpenter? certainly really cool and flavorful but not that useful.

If you have air (in theory) your allies can't suffocate or drown as you can literally create air in their lungs, earth also includes things like gems so I guess you could make cool jewelry (much like wood, very flavorful but not that useful in practice), with fire you could cook food everywhere (okay?), and metal can be okay-ish (like wood or earth) but can also probably be the best one if you take Plate in Treasure into consideration since that would allow you to eventually create infinite adamantine and thus fully deck everyone on the party with adamantine gear. Also, if your GM is really liberal with it, you can take Flashforge as a metal kineticist and create rations since those are adventuring gear. I don't think most GMs would allow that though, since the items you create with flashforge are explicitly made of metal, but I honestly would allow the kineticist themselves to eat those rations as I think its funny and flavorful.

Overall I find Base Kinesis to be flavorful but not that useful in practice (except for the Plate in Treasure combo). Food or water aren't a problem in the system, and even in survival campaigns I think its easier to just take Forager than to take Kineticist Dedication + Base Kinesis. Also, which is something people often ignore, is that if you are RAW with it technically you can't do much of anything that is mentioned in this post with Base Kinesis since the ability itself doesn't state you can do...

You cannot create precious materials like gems, adamantine, and etc.

Quote:
Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an element, for example) must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value. You can't create precious or valuable materials like silver, gemstones, or duskwood unless otherwise noted

As for Plate, it only covers something as long as the Impulse lasts (1minute or until you use the Impulse again) and then it reverts. No permanent adamantine from there either.

Shadow Lodge

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Dubious Scholar wrote:
As far as Base Kinesis goes, Water and Wood are probably the most obviously useful, but all of them have some stuff you can do with them.

I played in 4 straight PFS scenarios where "putting out a spreading fire during combat" was a mechanic, and having a fire kineticist with us who could just use their base kinesis for auto successes made a huge difference.


shroudb wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:

I'd say water is the most useful one since it (in theory) gives you an infinite supply of water to drink (not like food attrition is a thing that happens in this sytem, but I guess it has its uses). Wood with a very liberal GM I guess would technically allow you to create fruits or vegetables (most wood impulses are more "plant" than wood IMO) and I guess that would make it as useful as water since it would allow you to have infinte food. In most cases though, I guess infinite wood can be useful if you are a carpenter? certainly really cool and flavorful but not that useful.

If you have air (in theory) your allies can't suffocate or drown as you can literally create air in their lungs, earth also includes things like gems so I guess you could make cool jewelry (much like wood, very flavorful but not that useful in practice), with fire you could cook food everywhere (okay?), and metal can be okay-ish (like wood or earth) but can also probably be the best one if you take Plate in Treasure into consideration since that would allow you to eventually create infinite adamantine and thus fully deck everyone on the party with adamantine gear. Also, if your GM is really liberal with it, you can take Flashforge as a metal kineticist and create rations since those are adventuring gear. I don't think most GMs would allow that though, since the items you create with flashforge are explicitly made of metal, but I honestly would allow the kineticist themselves to eat those rations as I think its funny and flavorful.

Overall I find Base Kinesis to be flavorful but not that useful in practice (except for the Plate in Treasure combo). Food or water aren't a problem in the system, and even in survival campaigns I think its easier to just take Forager than to take Kineticist Dedication + Base Kinesis. Also, which is something people often ignore, is that if you are RAW with it technically you can't do much of anything that is mentioned in this post with Base Kinesis since the ability

...

Plate in Treasure explicitly calls out "any metal created by one of your impulses is plated with the metal" and Base Kinesis doesn't have a listed duration, so I'm inclined to think even when Clad in Metal doesn't last forever in this case it would. I also half disagree on that you can't create gems with Base Kinesis. I know it's explicitly said you can't, but I feel that sidebar is there to avoid people creating diamonds and selling them for profit. IMO the intention is that whatever you create with Base Kinesis (including adamantine or whatever metal you create) doesn't have a value (as the sidebar says) so as long as it isn't disruptive it IMO should be allowed because why not (saying that an earth kineticist has a ruby necklace he made with his powers doesn't break anything really).

In the case I'm wrong and Plate in Treasure doesn't work like that, I honestly don't think it would be that broken if it did work like I think it does since besides constructs having adamantine-plated weapons doesn't offer much benefits besides the "cool" feeling.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The kineticist dedication was probably killed by three factors.

1. Being self contained. In the playtest, blasts were strikes which used strength or Dexterity to hit. If they'd remained this way, they probably would have been much better for milticlassing. But people wanted the kineticist to be the best at blasting and for constitution to be more important. So the end result didn't treat milticlassing as a priority.

2. Dedications are kinda balanced against their class feats, particularly for martial stacking. Fighter is a bad dedication for a barbarian but gives early access to AoO and a ton of great bespoke action feats. Champion Dedication doesn't grant much to a battle oracle but Lay on Hands and the reaction are both super good. Monk dedication mechanically only provides a d6 unarmed strike which can be obtained from an ancestry feat, but style strikes are basically better than advanced weapons and flurry of blows is great. By comparison, Hunt Prey is a pretty cool option for a ranged character but Hunted Prey/Hunted Shot isn't necessarily worth squeezing into every round. Rage is a nice damage booster but barbarian feats are a bit meh for a long time. The only class which really breaks this rule is the psychic. And as the OP mentions, the kineticist has a lot of strong infusions to poach. Feat taxes are less of a thing in PF2 but they definitely exist in archetypes.

3. To a minmaxer, Con is a really good stat to tie offensive options too.

I think the dedication still has a use case for classes which want to dump dex but still have a range option. But that's a pretty specific thing.


Captain Morgan wrote:

The kineticist dedication was probably killed by three factors.

1. Being self contained. In the playtest, blasts were strikes which used strength or Dexterity to hit. If they'd remained this way, they probably would have been much better for milticlassing. But people wanted the kineticist to be the best at blasting and for constitution to be more important. So the end result didn't treat milticlassing as a priority.

2. Dedications are kinda balanced against their class feats, particularly for martial stacking. Fighter is a bad dedication for a barbarian but gives early access to AoO and a ton of great bespoke action feats. Champion Dedication doesn't grant much to a battle oracle but Lay on Hands and the reaction are both super good. Monk dedication mechanically only provides a d6 unarmed strike which can be obtained from an ancestry feat, but style strikes are basically better than advanced weapons and flurry of blows is great. By comparison, Hunt Prey is a pretty cool option for a ranged character but Hunted Prey/Hunted Shot isn't necessarily worth squeezing into every round. Rage is a nice damage booster but barbarian feats are a bit meh for a long time. The only class which really breaks this rule is the psychic. And as the OP mentions, the kineticist has a lot of strong infusions to poach. Feat taxes are less of a thing in PF2 but they definitely exist in archetypes.

3. To a minmaxer, Con is a really good stat to tie offensive options too.

I think the dedication still has a use case for classes which want to dump dex but still have a range option. But that's a pretty specific thing.

I agree with all the points except the first one.

If playtest kineticist had keep its mechanics to use Str and Dex to blast we would end in the worse of the worlds. The pure kineticist class would end in a less efficient blasts (unless they compensate it with good ammount additional dmg) due not use your KAS and for the archetype we would end in a situation that we also will need an extra feat (2 feat taxes, a dedication and a elemental weapon) to get a bit better blast but that probably wouldn't able to compete with weapons.

When the designers choose to not allow to improve the kineticist DC to master in archetype like spellcasting archetypes does they put a implicit message in it saying "we don't want that this archetype could be offensively competitive with your own class abilities".

I don't think at any point the designers wanted to make the kineticist archetype work different from now.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:

I don't think at any point the designers wanted to make the kineticist archetype work different from now.

Blast would have been much better back when it was a weapon attack that used handwraps. The number of feats you need to invest in it and the proficiency scaling absolutely brutalizes it.


Yet I still think that they will find a way to weaken the blasts for archetypes. If the designers intention was to keep blasting efficiently in archetype the would merged Improved Elemental Blast and Expert Kinetic Control into the dedication feat.

Even with this it will hardly compete with innate cantrips that's auto-heighten and now in remaster auto-improves to expert and even some martial classes with spell cast DC like Champions, Monks and Rangers goes up to master with it.

IMO the blasting is in dedication feat more for thematic reasons just to not make a kineticist from archetype unable to blast by default.

I know that some people wanted to fight with self-generated weapons made of an element and have some ranged backup blasts but I doubt that they would allow this to happen even if they made different decisions in the past.


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YuriP wrote:

I know that some people wanted to fight with self-generated weapons made of an element and have some ranged backup blasts but I doubt that they would allow this to happen even if they made different decisions in the past.

That's literally how it worked in the playtest though. It's not a brand new idea, it is just that idea that lost.

By making blasts their own unique thing instead of something which used your unarmed strike bonus or could just be a weapon, they significantly lowered the amount of interactions blasts have with other parts of the system. This also allowed them to make blasts stronger as a baseline because they didn't have to worry about how those interactions could stack to create something unbalanced. We saw a very similar decision get made with the play test spell strike.


I really didn't notice that kineticist class DC (and thus your impulse attack rolls) also scale worse than those of casters with multiclassing. Well, I did notice Expert Kinetic Control was in the same line as the feats that some martials have that grant you expert in martial weapons, but I didn't connect the dots and compare it against what casters have. Probably Paizo's intention was that Improved Elemental Blast worked as the equivalent to Basic Spellcasting, Expert Spellcasting, and Master Spellcasting feats? Even so that's a weird design decision because I would hardly think an extra 1d8 to your very innacurate elemental blast is comparable against getting more spell slots.


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I think part of the trick there is not to think about it as a solution for martials, but rather as a solution for casters.

Elemental Blast is a fully functional single-action attack, and if you've got the ability to use it, all it requires is a free hand.

My understanding is that "just use a bow" is a strategy for the "I'm a caster. What do I do with my third action?" question that's still somewhat viable even into the upper levels.

How does cranking Elemental Blast via the archetype compare to that?

Casters archetyping into Kineticist also benefit from the fact that most casters make no use of stances. Now, ideally, your casters aren't close enough to the foe for the more aggressive stances to come into play, but there are still various stances that work to buff your allies. Air Shroud and Kindle Inner Flames are at least potentially interesting (assuming that Kindle Inner Flames offers its rune boost as an add-on rather than a replace).


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think part of the trick there is not to think about it as a solution for martials, but rather as a solution for casters.

I think it is an alternative for both. I said something similar way back here, but it was mostly ignored.

But basically Elemental Blast is set up to be a competitor to Strike for a spellcaster and as a competitor to a Cantrip for a martial.

It isn't going to be better than a Strike for a martial or a Cantrip for a spellcaster. That would be broken to get from an archetype.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Elemental Blast is a fully functional single-action attack, and if you've got the ability to use it, all it requires is a free hand.

My understanding is that "just use a bow" is a strategy for the "I'm a caster. What do I do with my third action?" question that's still somewhat viable even into the upper levels.

Yeah. Kineticist archetype and Elemental Blast gives a spellcaster a good 1-action follow up to a spell.

It also gives a good 1 or 2 action ranged option to a martial.

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