The Batman Paradox

[siegfriedliner]

I was mulling over how I would build batman in pathfinder 2e and a funny thought occurred to me.

If you look at what batman is foremost respected for (or at least my impression) it's his detective skill (perception) and iron will (will).

So when making batman who you want to have an iron will and great detective skills and fast reflexes you would pick wisdom as one of his highest stats. Everything wisdom does in the game all of wisdoms skill (except perhaps religion) are vital for your batman.

But inherently when I think of batman the character I don't think of him as an incredibly wise individual, he makes reckless descions and puts others in danger fairly frequently and to a great extent he lets his trauma have far to much dominance of his life

I find amusing the interplay between wisdom as a game mechanic and wisdom as a concept. Though in truth all it really shows is the obvious fact that vague somewhat philosophical concept do not map onto rigid game mechanics. A fact that anyone remotely sensible ,(ie not me) wouldn't need to have spend 30 minutes of his life thinking about.

But are their any functional mechanics that don't quite map to the concept that vaguely inspired that have amused you recently.

[YuriP]

One thing that I learned with life (both real and fictional).
The fact that you you know that some action is a bad idea doesn't prevent you to do that bad action. So it's OK that even high Wiz character makes bad decision sometimes even having high will and wiz.

[Mathmuse]

Batman is often the voice of wise experience in Justice League episodes. He has also served as a mentor to many superheroes, such as the Outsiders, which is a wisdom role.

But a classic Justice League episode (also Batman Beyond) that features Batman's wise compassion is, Batman comforting the child villain Ace as she dies.

Batman craves vengeance against the kind of criminals who killed his parents, but he always strives for fair justice rather than brutal revenge.

[AestheticDialectic]

Mathmuse wrote:

Batman is often the voice of wise experience in Justice League episodes. He has also served as a mentor to many superheroes, such as the Outsiders, which is a wisdom role.

But a classic Justice League episode (also Batman Beyond) that features Batman's wise compassion is, Batman comforting the child villain Ace as she dies.

Batman craves vengeance against the kind of criminals who killed his parents, but he always strives for fair justice rather than brutal revenge.

The Batman in that show, yes. He's a genuinely good person when he's written by folks like Paul Dini... When Frank Miller writes him he is a horrible person. It highly depends on the writer and what Batman you wanna be

[Dragonchess Player]

In PF2, Bruce Wayne/Batman is possibly close to an investigator (Alchemical Sciences or Forensic Medicine methodology) with the vigilante (of course), inventor (for Gadget Specialist), and possibly martial artist archetypes. Maybe with the Free Archetype variant to fit it all in.

At least, that would cover his detective skills, alter ego, "utility belt," and unarmed combat capabilities.

[Deriven Firelion]

I would make him a dual class rogue or investigator/monk.

[The Raven Black]

My revelation from Batman begins was that with all his focus on inspiring superstitious fear through the use of surprise attacks and disappearance, the use of many gadgets and feats of physical prowess, Batman maps pretty obviously to a ninja.

[AestheticDialectic]

Batman within the fiction of comic books is the kind of character who gets to start with 18 in every stat because he has to keep up with insanely powerful super powered characters and he has been written by so many people with different visions of him. So he can fit almost anything

[Deriven Firelion]

He would probably have a high crafting and lots of skills.

[Errenor]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Batman within the fiction of comic books is the kind of character who gets to start with 18 in every stat because he has to keep up with insanely powerful super powered characters and he has been written by so many people with different visions of him. So he can fit almost anything

Or he is just really over-levelled even in comparison with 'normal' superheroes.

[Taja the Barbarian]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Batman within the fiction of comic books is the kind of character who gets to start with 18 in every stat because he has to keep up with insanely powerful super powered characters and he has been written by so many people with different visions of him. So he can fit almost anything

This is utter nonsense: There is no way Batman starts with a mere 18 in each stat...

[The Contrarian]

Batman is just a fighter who invested heavily in skills.

[WatersLethe]

One of the reasons comic book character discussions are pointless is that they change so much over so many different factors and often at the whim of one writer's throwaway plot point.

However, I think OP's take on wisdom is flawed.

OP wrote:

But inherently when I think of batman the character I don't think of him as an incredibly wise individual, he makes reckless descions and puts others in danger fairly frequently and to a great extent he lets his trauma have far to much dominance of his life "

Reckless Decisions - A wise character can take calculated risks, it's just Batmans risk math is different than others'. Often his reckless decisions are shown to be the right call in the end, and others just weren't wise enough to see it at first.

Put Others in Danger - That's an edicts/anathema question, not a Wisdom question. A wise character can have the strength of will to make tough decisions that work out for the ultimate good, as an example.

Trauma - Psychological disorders don't really map to high or low Wisdom. The wisest people can still have mental scars.

[Bluemagetim]

A pathfinder character is meant to be balanced vs other adventurers of the same level, they are not on batman level.

[The-Magic-Sword]

My vote is that he'd just be a Rogue with the Vigilante and Martial Artist Archetypes, that gets you Sneak Attack, a key part of his fighting style, hand to hand combat, you rely on dex so you can use shuriken or a boomerang or whatever for batarangs, you get the skill monkey side of things, and depending on your choices it shouldn't be crazy hard to get high intimidation.

[YuriP]

IMO it would be free-archetype Str based Predictive Purchase/Implausible Purchase Alchemical Sciences Investigator with Vigilant Archetype and Medium Armor proficiency (that would be improved with Sentinel Archetype in higher levels) that usually fights using Brawling weapons with Shifting rune.

[Easl]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Inventor. Gotta fit that in there with Investigator somehow. Built-in-Tools for the toolbelt, Collapse Armor so you can go from tuxedo to bat suit mid-scene, Gadget Specialist-> Ubiquitous Gadgets->Contingency Gadgets, and of course Soaring Armor. Construct named Robin if you want to get silly.

Lots of bat-worthy feats in that class, though it does lack the rocket-powered car horse.

[Sanityfaerie]

Easl wrote:

Lots of bat-worthy feats in that class, though it does lack the rocket-powered car horse.

Oh, come now. The Construct innovation is rideable, the Accelerated Mobility innovation calls out "add-on boosters" as one of the possible explanations, and there's even Construct Shell so that the whole thing can be enclosed. What more do you want?

[Easl]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Oh, come now. The Construct innovation is rideable, the Accelerated Mobility innovation calls out "add-on boosters" as one of the possible explanations, and there's even Construct Shell so that the whole thing can be enclosed. What more do you want?

That's true, though I was originally thinking that you'd just have to take Armor Innovation/Power suit as the signature batman 'thing.' Sigh...the problem with Inventor-as-Batman is that there are more fits-the-concept options than you can take.

[AestheticDialectic]

Batman does too many things. I think to make him you have to give something up. I don't think he is a fighter though, he doesn't have +2 to hit over everyone else. Sooner pick monk for +2 to AC, which it think makes more sense

[Captain Morgan]

Batman is the embodiment of the Omni-Talented protagonist that class based systems are terrible at emulating.

WatersLethe wrote:

One of the reasons comic book character discussions are pointless is that they change so much over so many different factors and often at the whim of one writer's throwaway plot point.

However, I think OP's take on wisdom is flawed.

OP wrote:

But inherently when I think of batman the character I don't think of him as an incredibly wise individual, he makes reckless descions and puts others in danger fairly frequently and to a great extent he lets his trauma have far to much dominance of his life "

Reckless Decisions - A wise character can take calculated risks, it's just Batmans risk math is different than others'. Often his reckless decisions are shown to be the right call in the end, and others just weren't wise enough to see it at first.

Put Others in Danger - That's an edicts/anathema question, not a Wisdom question. A wise character can have the strength of will to make tough decisions that work out for the ultimate good, as an example.

Trauma - Psychological disorders don't really map to high or low Wisdom. The wisest people can still have mental scars.

I'll add that his Reckless Decisions are mostly just putting himself and his allies at risk to fight for the greater good, which is pretty much universal requirement for an adventurer/PC.