[Major Spoilers for entire AP] Information reveal at the end of Book 2

[Champ Kindly]

Have just finished reading through Let the Leaves Fall - delighted to see it's as well put together as book 1, really can't wait to start running it.

Wondering what people's thoughts are on Zhi Hui revealing the nature of

AP plot:

the mindscape

?

To me it seems somewhat anticlimactic to have such a fundamentally reality-altering reveal just be delivered in dialogue. Would be interested to hear if anyone has any thoughts on a more dramatic or cinematic way of revealing the information to the party.

As an aside: I can't overstate my excitement to start running this. Such an amazing AP so far.

[James Jacobs]

Well...

Spoiler:

There's a lot more "on screen" reveals about how the mindscape works in the next adventure, so you might want to wait to read that one first before you get ahead of yourself. ;-)

[Champ Kindly]

Aha, good to know!

And yes, definitely at risk of getting ahead of myself... Especially considering I won't be starting this until my group ends one of our current 1e or SF campaigns, which will likely be well into next year. Just getting swept up in excitement prepping this to be honest.

[Mekura]

A little mixed feelings. Like you, I thought it was a little odd that it got tossed out in 2nd act.

Spoiler:

On the other-hand, they are little things that hint at it throughout- The monastery specifically being dedicated to the Sangpotshi philsophy, and the presnece of Nindoru would likely cue folks into the Reincarnation/Anti-Reincarnation thematics, and Xinyue's cryptic remarks implying she's dealt with you before. Along her Aura of Past Regret's causing people to remember tragic past lives they may have had, most of which by far would presumably be lives they experienced in the Kugaptee cycles, there's enough to perhaps tip off genre-savvy players, along with alot of more minor hints I don't recall.

I will note that a key detail Zhi-Hui isn't able to give them is the particulars on how long they've been in the mindcycle, leaving less savvy players without a clear guess- Additionally, I don't believe there's any that specifies that time is still moving forward outside of the mindscape, with players perhaps inclined to guess that once they break the curse, they'll simply reconnect with the outside world, as opposed to effectively be flung a century into the 'future'.

Acknowledging Mr Jacobs encouragement to wait for Book 3 before deciding anything drastic, one angle you could take is for her not to know as much, or say it other ways. For example, I find Mindscape a very technical term, one that a Wizard might take, but perhaps not a more spiritually minded Monk ghost, and kind like the idea of communicating it to players more along of being trapped within "Kugaptee's dreams", or similarly mystically vague terminology. Though I guess that could feel too Lovecraftian? Although, it's not like Kugaptee's shadow picture doesn't ooze a 'Demonic otherworldly alienness".

As to alternate ways, well, I think Xin-Yue's past regets aura is a great visual way to put emphasize to it already, with it perhaps interrupting or beginning before combat to make players experience their past lives- be it just say an extended description of them, or even having them a roleplay a day in their past lives before dying horrifically, potentially at a past cycle Xin-Yue's hand. That way, Zhi-Hui's explaination will serve more as a clarification of what your PCs lived through whilst fighting her, instead of semi-random reveal.

[Champ Kindly]

Mekura wrote:

A little mixed feelings. Like you, I thought it was a little odd that it got tossed out in 2nd act.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ah, some very good points here. I hadn't read that particular stat block closely enough - the aura of past regrets is definitely an avenue for some interesting "flashbacks" hinting that all is not as it seems.

Looking forward to reading more about the mechanics of it all in book 3 so I can figure out how to plant some more seeds in book 1.

[James Jacobs]

If you DO plant seeds, remember that the more you plant, the more chances you give the players to figure things out early. You know your players best. Some folks are delighted when they "guess the plot twist" but others get frustrated if they do so because it was revealed too early. We tried to parcel out the plot twist reveals in the adventures at a deliberate pace and in a deliberate order so that they build on each other and make for a logical series of revelations, but adjusting those as needed for your group is for sure a good idea if you know your players would prefer a different order.

But in that case, this Adventure Path more than others kinda wants you to have all four parts at hand so you'll be able to see the baseline of how things play out.

One thing you for sure want to avoid is the temptation to change the nature of the twists if a player guesses early, since that runs a risk of making the changed plot twists not make sense.

[Wonton]

I had the same idea as you. At minimum, I think I will move the reveal until after the Xin Yue boss fight. Zhi Hui can materialize for the PCs, but (just as is explained by Shinzo in Book 3!), they can't "hear" the truth yet. So she will mainly deliver smaller hints about the shrines, Kugaptee, etc. And only when Xin Yue (who herself says some lines about being "trapped" in a loop) dies, will Zhi Hui be able to tell them the full picture.

And if I wanna get wild with it, I might even do it even more cinematically, like with a flashback. Or straight up confuse my players with some time-jumping.

[James Jacobs]

Wonton wrote:

I had the same idea as you. At minimum, I think I will move the reveal until after the Xin Yue boss fight. Zhi Hui can materialize for the PCs, but (just as is explained by Shinzo in Book 3!), they can't "hear" the truth yet. So she will mainly deliver smaller hints about the shrines, Kugaptee, etc. And only when Xin Yue (who herself says some lines about being "trapped" in a loop) dies, will Zhi Hui be able to tell them the full picture.

And if I wanna get wild with it, I might even do it even more cinematically, like with a flashback. Or straight up confuse my players with some time-jumping.

Again... I suggest waiting for book 3 at least before you make changes to how and where things are revealed. Not saying any one path of revelation is the best, but the rate and times at which we pull back the mystery for the PCs in this Adventure Path are pretty deliberately staged and timed to take place where and when and how they do so as to build on one another, so the PCs get time to enjoy each layer and don't jump over smaller revelations and get them all at once.