What the Heck

[Kringress]

Paizo stated that the rules were backwards compatible for 2.0 and now you are FORCING us to purchase the re-master? WTH is wrong with you! I am a VO that will not even mention this s$!& to my players. If you don't like it I do not CARE.

I have many players that will look at PAIZO and tell them Nope, done with this s#!# and leave the game and society if we force them to purchase the new books (which happened with the change from 1e to 2e), while stating the rules are on Archives of Nethis is not an option.

Please change your policy before it becomes a problem.

Here is what is needed:
Rules on refocus, Recall Knowledge, and Monster Abilities. Other than that there is no need to re-do characters unless the player wants to build under the new rules.

[Alex Speidel]

As I have stated previously, the Player Core and GM Core will be added to the core assumption on November 15th. Purchasing the new books is not, in fact, required.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Very graciously stated, Alex. We should also note that the remastered rules will be on Archives of Nethys for everyone to see.

Hmm

PS May I also suggest to the original poster that one can express dismay to our OPF in a gentler manner? I can understand the frustration, and even sympathize with it. But cussing out staff (or other posters here) is never acceptable, and in this case was unjustified. Alex has done his best to make this transition as painless as possible for our players and GMs.

[Kringress]

I am sorry if I swung the bat a little hard, but in Character Creation it states that use of 2.0 is available.

So please understand my confusion when there are two different creation processes here. and when it looks like in the re-master section you have no choice but to use the re-master rules.

Character Options

Beginning on November 15, 2023, no new characters may be created using the class chassis printed in the Core Rulebook if the class has been reprinted in the Player Core.
This affects the following classes: bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, wizard.
Characters with at least 1 game reported prior to November 15 may be built using the Core Rulebook chassis.
Previously-existing characters with at least 1 game reported may continue their progression using the Core Rulebook chassis. They may not use the chassis in the Player Core without rebuilding.
If a character option has been reprinted with the same name, use the new version as if it were errata. No additional retraining is necessary.
Example: divine lance has been reprinted with new Remaster-compatible rules. All PCs with divine lance must update the spell accordingly.
If a character option has not been reprinted, characters are free to use the option as previously printed, or to select it at any time.
Example: the brooch of shielding has not been reprinted. Characters may still purchase and use a brooch of shielding.
Example: the produce flame spell has not been reprinted, but ignition takes its place thematically. Characters may learn either spell anytime they would learn a new spell, and could learn both spells if they chose.
Example: the oracle class has not yet been remastered. Players may still build and play oracles using the rules in the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
An oracle who learns divine lance must still use the remastered version of the spell.

[Kringress]

As I have games on Friday I needed a clarification of which rules we need to build characters under. What should have been posted is the rules for monsters, no need for alignment, the new rules for recall knowledge, and IF you had the new books this is how to build or re-build your character. This just created confusion where none is needed or wanted.

[Petronius]

Kringress wrote:

As I have games on Friday I needed a clarification of which rules we need to build characters under. What should have been posted is the rules for monsters, no need for alignment, the new rules for recall knowledge, and IF you had the new books this is how to build or re-build your character. This just created confusion where none is needed or wanted.

TL;dr: Yes, if something is republished in the Remaster books, you have to use the new version starting on the 15th. No, you do not have to buy the Remaster books.

If you have a character with a reported game on or before Nov 14th, they can use existing rules.

If you have a character that does not have a reported game on or before Nov 14th, they must be built using the Remaster rules--IF and only if their class has been reprinted in Player Core or GM Core.

If you have a character whose class has not (yet) been reprinted, they continue using the existing class regardless of games reported.

No one is required to go buy Player Core or GM Core, as Paizo have consistently said since Remaster was announced. That's what Alex is saying with reference to the Core Assumption.

The change from 1e to 2e is not comparable to the Remaster. The first is putting a whole different engine in the car; the Remaster is giving the car a tune-up and a paint job.

[William Ronald]

Regardless of class, your preexisting characters will remain valid. You have the option to make changes using the Remaster rules.

The Player Core and the GM Core will be part of the Core assumption. So, Archives of Nethys is a valid option for players to use for any character from the Core Rulebook or the Player Core.

Paizo could have gone the route of making the new rules a completely new edition or calling it such. It may have even helped sales. However, I think it is comforting that you can change or not change your characters as you desire.

A year ago, none of us dreamed of the OGL debacle or the Remaster. I think that there has been a great deal of effort to make this as smooth a transition as possible. Paizo will not hire a private police force to demand you turn in your old books.

[Kringress]

everyone, I get that old characters are not going to be effected. My problem is this, I have people that will bring new characters built to the 2.0 rules and not the 2.1 or re-master rules. They do NOT look at NETHYS for character build rules. They do not care what NETHYS says. How do I get this understood? PEOPLE DO NOT LOOK AT NETHYS!

Please I am trying to get a point across here and I have to get this understood. The remaster rules need to be an ADDITION instead of the default. I will have people that will look at me and say no and they do not care.

I understand the Paizo will not send out the Pinkerton's to get anyone's books. But I have to point out that many people like myself will not bother to buy the new books, or care if they ever get printed. I may only purchase the mini rule books when they hit my store, but not before that.
Others will never purchase the new books and just run under the older rules. This is a problem for Society play, and stating that these characters need to be built under one set of rules that they may never even look at is not going to work.

[Alex Speidel]

Kringress wrote:

My problem is this, I have people that will bring new characters built to the 2.0 rules and not the 2.1 or re-master rules.

In this instance, you would do the same thing you'd do anytime someone shows up with an improperly built character. You'd sit them down, say "hey, I think I noticed something off on your character sheet, let's figure out how to fix it." If you've got time before the session, you can do it then; if not, do it afterwards.

In one of my first games as GM after being hired, I sent someone a message after the game to say "hey, I noticed you used this spell during the game; I didn't want to disrupt play at the time, but that's not actually a legal spell, so you should swap it out before your next game." It's really that easy.

When we issue errata, we expect people to abide by the new rules. When we issue clarifications or update campaign rules & sanctioning, we expect people to follow those rules. This is no different.

I'm not expecting people to have perfect knowledge of every change. I don't have that yet, nobody does. This transition is going to require the community working together, supporting each other, and being patient as we all figure out the changes that need to be made. It's not always going to be easy, but I have faith in the community's ability to do it.

I'll be asking Jon to update your thread title in the morning to something less profane, in keeping with forum guidelines.

[Petronius]

Kringress wrote:

everyone, I get that old characters are not going to be effected. My problem is this, I have people that will bring new characters built to the 2.0 rules and not the 2.1 or re-master rules. They do NOT look at NETHYS for character build rules. They do not care what NETHYS says. How do I get this understood? PEOPLE DO NOT LOOK AT NETHYS!

Please I am trying to get a point across here and I have to get this understood. The remaster rules need to be an ADDITION instead of the default. I will have people that will look at me and say no and they do not care.

I understand the Paizo will not send out the Pinkerton's to get anyone's books. But I have to point out that many people like myself will not bother to buy the new books, or care if they ever get printed. I may only purchase the mini rule books when they hit my store, but not before that.

Others will never purchase the new books and just run under the older rules. This is a problem for Society play, and stating that these characters need to be built under one set of rules that they may never even look at is not going to work.

This is the first time in the thread you've clearly said that you don't think your players will look at Nethys. [Which makes the "force to buy books" comment make more sense--you just had not let us know your local community doesn't like using online tools until now.]

This is the first time in the thread you've clearly said "Hey, I think the Remaster should be an option, not a requirement." That made it much easier for the rest of us to see it as a heated request for clarity rather than the heated protest you intended.

I get that you're upset. I (now) get that you don't think this is workable for your local community. It's just very hard to receive a message that isn't being clearly sent.

Neither demanding that rules be changed at the eleventh hour nor taking a tone that suggests it's obvious and anyone who doesn't agree with you is a fool or worse is likely to be a winning choice. You're doing both.

(Maybe it's not intentional--and believe me, I'm very aware of how hard it is to get tone right over text--but you are doing both.)

All that said, I hope you don't end up with the problems or the player exodus you are dreading. Be well & good luck!

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

Kringress wrote:

everyone, I get that old characters are not going to be effected. My problem is this, I have people that will bring new characters built to the 2.0 rules and not the 2.1 or re-master rules. They do NOT look at NETHYS for character build rules. They do not care what NETHYS says. How do I get this understood? PEOPLE DO NOT LOOK AT NETHYS!

I guess I'm not a person, or belonging to the subset people.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I am also going to calm your fears a bit, Kringess. Ninety percent of character creation in the Player Core -- other than name changes -- is the same as the CRB. It now really is edition 2.1 rather than 2.5, having read through it. There are subtle differences throughout, though. The most affected classes are wizards and clerics, but every spell caster will notice the change to cantrips where they get 2d4 at Level 1 instead of 1d4 + attribute.

Some may even be excited by changes in character creation as they'll get more bang for their buck with several ancestry feats, or won't have to create a character with a high charisma as a cleric.

I'm hoping that in the next few days we'll get people compiling master lists of all the name changes and the various subtle rule changes so that we'll get something we can print out and carry around, but for now, just do the best you can.

I am working on a mass email to the Minnesota player base about this right now, trying to set expectations and allay fears.

Hmm

[pauljathome]

I don't know where this came from (I was just sent the link) so I can't give credit where it is due but there is this spreadsheet that has a lot of this stuff already. Seems to be a work in progress (every time I check, there is more stuff :-))

Spreadsheet

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

It's a compilation from Reddit. I'm glad to see the community developing something like this.

Hmm

[Driftbourne]

If the new rules go into effect tomorrow, is the Archive of Nethys getting updated then too? Although the spreadsheet is probably more useful than the Neyths as far as figuring out what the changes are, Nethyes is easier to find for most people.

I checked my digital content download page last night to see if the pregen package had been updated. I'm assuming the old pregens are still usable? Is there a pregen update planned for the remaster?

[Kringress]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I am also going to calm your fears a bit, Kringess. Ninety percent of character creation in the Player Core -- other than name changes -- is the same as the CRB. It now really is edition 2.1 rather than 2.5, having read through it. There are subtle differences throughout, though. The most affected classes are wizards and clerics, but every spell caster will notice the change to cantrips where they get 2d4 at Level 1 instead of 1d4 + attribute.

Some may even be excited by changes in character creation as they'll get more bang for their buck with several ancestry feats, or won't have to create a character with a high charisma as a cleric.

I'm hoping that in the next few days we'll get people compiling master lists of all the name changes and the various subtle rule changes so that we'll get something we can print out and carry around, but for now, just do the best you can.

I am working on a mass email to the Minnesota player base about this right now, trying to set expectations and allay fears.

Hmm

Sorry, I should have put "I Know people who will not look at Nethys"

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

We've normalized looking at Nethys in our games. In a lot of my games as a GM, if there is a rules question, I make a on-the-spot table ruling and assign one of the players the job of looking the rule up on Archives of Nethys while we continue the game. It means that I can keep the game going, and everybody learns something.

BTW, thanks for voicing your concerns. I kept them in mind when composing my e-mail to my players about the Remaster.

Hmm

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Driftbourne wrote:

If the new rules go into effect tomorrow, is the Archive of Nethys getting updated then too?

I'm assuming that the new Remaster rules are already there, just waiting for November 15th to go live. We'll see what happens.

The pregen package has not yet been updated, so use the old ones for now. I'm sure there'll be an announcement from Alex when they get updated.

Hmm

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Correction to my previous post: this tweet from Archives of Nethys states they will not be live with the Remaster, and there will be a delay.

Under these circumstances, just do your best until the full rules are available to everyone. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. Everyone will understand during this period of transition.

Hmm

[DrakeRoberts]

I have two concerns about this process as well, though they aren’t as drastic as those of the OP. Firstly, I’m unsure how we’re to go live with rules changes beyond those documented in the PFS Remaster blog and PFS guide if we say this is core assumption and then there’s a delay before AoN gets it live. Secondly, figuring out what feats, spells, etc have changed (and thus need to be updated on an old character) is going to be a pain without some sort of composed list of which things have now been “errata’d”. Can we get such a list perhaps? It seems that with such changes needing to be made and AoN not being ready on November 15th, perhaps there should have been a bit of a delay built into the PFS adoption timeline? The obvious answer is that we’re all just here to have fun and people are going to get stuff wrong, and we’ll roll with the punches…. And yet we have the guidebook and rules for a reason, and the impossibility of that timeline for anyone that didn’t get an advance copy of the book is problematic and likely to result in frustration and confusion. I get it’s a bit late to change things now perhaps, but maybe we should at least file it away as a lesson to learn and remember in the future?

[Driftbourne]

DrakeRoberts wrote:

figuring out what feats, spells, etc have changed (and thus need to be updated on an old character) is going to be a pain without some sort of composed list of which things have now been “errata’d”.

This was posted above by someone else, but In case you missed it:

Pathfinder 2e - Remaster change spreadsheet .

It's still a work in progress but getting closer, but they actually show what the change difference is which is very useful.

[Gisher]

Kringress wrote:

Paizo stated that the rules were backwards compatible for 2.0 and now you are FORCING us to purchase the re-master? WTH is wrong with you! I am a VO that will not even mention this s$~& to my players. If you don't like it I do not CARE.

I have many players that will look at PAIZO and tell them Nope, done with this s+~$ and leave the game and society if we force them to purchase the new books (which happened with the change from 1e to 2e), while stating the rules are on Archives of Nethis is not an option.

Please change your policy before it becomes a problem.

Here is what is needed:
Rules on refocus, Recall Knowledge, and Monster Abilities. Other than that there is no need to re-do characters unless the player wants to build under the new rules.

I just have to say that your post is an effective advertisement for NOT joining PFS. I'm repelled at the thought of having to interact with someone with such lack of self-control, disrespect for others, and apparent inability to engage in reasoned dialogue.

[Driftbourne]

Gisher wrote:

Kringress wrote:

Paizo stated that the rules were backwards compatible for 2.0 and now you are FORCING us to purchase the re-master? WTH is wrong with you! I am a VO that will not even mention this s$~& to my players. If you don't like it I do not CARE.

I have many players that will look at PAIZO and tell them Nope, done with this s+~$ and leave the game and society if we force them to purchase the new books (which happened with the change from 1e to 2e), while stating the rules are on Archives of Nethis is not an option.

Please change your policy before it becomes a problem.

Here is what is needed:
Rules on refocus, Recall Knowledge, and Monster Abilities. Other than that there is no need to re-do characters unless the player wants to build under the new rules.

I just have to say that your post is an effective advertisement for NOT joining PFS. I'm repelled at the thought of having to interact with someone with such lack of self-control, disrespect for others, and apparent inability to engage in reasoned dialogue.

Everyone has a bad day. I suspect the OP knows his player's likely reaction to change better than we do. Where I live 85% of the players dropped out of PFS when 2e came out, the group never recovered and recently shut down completely. So I get the OP's fear and frustration that the rule change could cause enough player loss to end the game where they live.

Paizo might not require owning the book to play the remastered version of a class in PFS but with Archive of Nethys not even having the the new rules available yet, there's no way to comply with the change effective today Nov 15th if you don't buy the new books. If the OPs players are the type to refuse to use Nethys then they are likely also not reading these forums to keep up with the latest game news. So currently a softer rollout seems justified.

I will add one thing I think will cause some feel bad moments at tables. is grandfathering of characters made before this change. That's likely to cause someone to complain if someone else can play old versions of a class why can't they? But if you force everyone to update their character then this starts to feel like an edition change, and that's not how the remaster has been advertised to us.

Now let's remind ourselves how we got here and thank WOTC for this mess.

[DrakeRoberts]

Driftbourne wrote:

DrakeRoberts wrote:

figuring out what feats, spells, etc have changed (and thus need to be updated on an old character) is going to be a pain without some sort of composed list of which things have now been “errata’d”.

This was posted above by someone else, but In case you missed it:

Pathfinder 2e - Remaster change spreadsheet .

It's still a work in progress but getting closer, but they actually show what the change difference is which is very useful.

Thank you, I HAD missed that!

[Richard Lowe]

Gisher wrote:

I just have to say that your post is an effective advertisement for NOT joining PFS. I'm repelled at the thought of having to interact with someone with such lack of self-control, disrespect for others, and apparent inability to engage in reasoned dialogue.

Whilst I understand and can sympathise to a degree with the OPs frustrations I think it's fair to say that the behavior shown is not something I or most others would ever expect, or accept, from our Venture Officers and not something you should or will see in Society. I hope that you do decide to give us a try, I promise that the vast, vast majority of people are incredibly welcoming and warm and if there are issues we try to resolve them with sensible measures and a degree of calm, best of luck in your games!

[Driftbourne]

Obviously, I'm not a Venture Officer, but I'm curious is there a private channel where a Venture Officer could ask for advice, instead of posting in the public forums here? Also, do Venture Officers get notices of changes like these to be ready to deal with them? or are Venture Officers expected to keep an eye out for changes on their own?

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Driftbourne wrote:

Obviously, I'm not a Venture Officer, but I'm curious is there a private channel where a Venture Officer could ask for advice, instead of posting in the public forums here? Also, do Venture Officers get notices of changes like these to be ready to deal with them? or are Venture Officers expected to keep an eye out for changes on their own?

Yes, Venture Officers have channels of communication that are exclusive to them, as you can imagine some things benefit from collaboration and discussion, but unsurprisingly not every discussion benefits from it being public.

We use the same channel to distribute information to VOs, but in general, it is often not possible or practical to inform thousands of people about upcoming changes with a lot of advanced notice.

[Kringress]

Ok it is 4:00PM on Friday and SNAFU is here. The main thing I was trying to get people to understand is that a 3 day time frame is not enough time to get anything together.

My point is the rules that we need to look even if they were on Nethys right away there is not enough time to be ready to use them. We need time to look over the rules implement them and then worry about enforcing them. The date should be in time for PaizoCon and not just 3 days.

I gave some time for things to happen, and yeah.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Kringress, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told my VAs. Don't worry about getting everything perfect on day one of the Remaster. We've had a whole bunch of pages of errata that dropped on Day 1. No one is going to get it all perfect. If you make a mistake, fix it the next time.

Don't feel you have to audit all the characters. Take this in baby steps. The old characters do not have to retrain. Start with the simple stuff: the recall knowledge, the changes to cantrips, focus points, etc. The good news is that there is now errata that you can print out and bring to the table if you need it.

We're all going to make mistakes during this transition, and it is okay. We all can learn the new rules together as we go.

Hmm

[pauljathome]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Kringress, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told my VAs. Don't worry about getting everything perfect on day one of the Remaster

As an example of how it is likely to ACTUALLY happen, I was in a remote game last night.

One player (seemed fairly new) hadn't really realized anything about the remaster. So, we had to quickly adjust the damage that her cantrips did. We had to look at the new chart for the free items you get. That was about all that had to be done.

Took a maximum of about 5 minutes.

Its just not that big a deal in practice

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Kringress, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told my VAs. Don't worry about getting everything perfect on day one of the Remaster. We've had a whole bunch of pages of errata that dropped on Day 1. No one is going to get it all perfect. If you make a mistake, fix it the next time.

Don't feel you have to audit all the characters. Take this in baby steps. The old characters do not have to retrain. Start with the simple stuff: the recall knowledge, the changes to cantrips, focus points, etc. The good news is that there is now errata that you can print out and bring to the table if you need it.

We're all going to make mistakes during this transition, and it is okay. We all can learn the new rules together as we go.

Hmm

I'd like to underscore the above. There's no point to let the remaster changes get in the way of playing or enjoying the game. I just got my PDFs the other day, haven't really had a chance to read them or even look at them very much. Haven't really worked them into my characters, or into games I'm GMing.

Am I going to give it a good go and do my best? Yes, absolutely. But probably 95%+ of the game has not changed. Is there a risk of missing a few details? Yes. But that happened routinely pre-remaster anyway, in games I've played and in games I've run. There's no expectation of perfection, nor would such a thing even be possible.

[Mark Stratton]

Kringress wrote:

Ok it is 4:00PM on Friday and SNAFU is here. The main thing I was trying to get people to understand is that a 3 day time frame is not enough time to get anything together.

My point is the rules that we need to look even if they were on Nethys right away there is not enough time to be ready to use them. We need time to look over the rules implement them and then worry about enforcing them. The date should be in time for PaizoCon and not just 3 days.

I gave some time for things to happen, and yeah.

Respectfully, your point keeps changing, so I don’t know how anyone will be able to give you a satisfactory response.

Your first point, which included profanity and words in all capital letters, was that Paizo was forcing people to buy the remaster books. You were then corrected on your error.

Then your point was that the remaster rules should be an addition to the game, not the default for the game. More responses were made by some pretty knowledgeable people to try to help allay your concerns.

Now your point is that the rules aren’t currently available at AoN, which we know, and which they are working to get up to speed. And people have pointed out that all we can do is to do our best. Paizo isn’t going to show up at your table and tell you are doing it wrong, especially when full access to the rules online isn’t available yet.

So, I am having trouble trying to find a way to help address your concerns, because they keep shifting, and I honestly do not know which of these things is the most important to you and your group. People here are honestly and genuinely trying to help you. Please accept that help - it will end up with a better long-term result for you and your community.

The game you ran on Friday - what problems did you encounter without having the rules online? I presume you didn’t have the Remaster books because I think you made it clear none in your group were going to buy them, which is a fair and legitimate choice. So, not having the rules, what problems did you encounter in trying to run that game?

[DeliciousEnigma]

pauljathome wrote:

I don't know where this came from (I was just sent the link) so I can't give credit where it is due but there is this spreadsheet that has a lot of this stuff already. Seems to be a work in progress (every time I check, there is more stuff :-))

Spreadsheet

omg thank you so much! With the delay in shipping (and being broke) I was getting worried about the new characters my players will be making.

[Titanhoss]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

We've normalized looking at Nethys in our games. In a lot of my games as a GM, if there is a rules question, I make a on-the-spot table ruling and assign one of the players the job of looking the rule up on Archives of Nethys while we continue the game. It means that I can keep the game going, and everybody learns something.

BTW, thanks for voicing your concerns. I kept them in mind when composing my e-mail to my players about the Remaster.

Hmm

Seems like a good reason to give a hero point.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Ooh, I like the idea of giving out Hero Points for rules lookups! I'll have to consider that one!

[Archie Shaleson]

Alex Speidel wrote:

As I have stated previously, the Player Core and GM Core will be added to the core assumption on November 15th. Purchasing the new books is not, in fact, required.

I mean the new books are still pretty good so they're still the best pick up for a new player.