We don't know yet if the focus spells will be poachable or not with the multiclass dedication, but I'm concerned if that ends up being the case. Some of them, like Garden of Healing or Embodiment of Battle sound a bit too good on other classes. Just wanted to post this as a reminder that we don't get to playtest the dedications and as a request to test these outside the original class if you find the time so we can give feedback for this as well.
I love where Animist is heading, but I'd rather not get another Psychic situation whose dedication is better in a lot of cases than the class as a whole.
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This really comes down to the remaster changing things. Right now these focus spells seem to very powerful compared to other classes except Psychic.
If they are like any of class you would be able to get them at level 4. Psychic for some reason gets their at level 2.
If you can't get them through Archetypes, the archetype would pretty much add nothing though.
Personally I like "poachable" focus spells though. I find it fun picking up these.
I could see myself picking up Shapeshifting and the healing one on my Kineticist :).
Right now I feel like Animist Feats at half level trump most my caster feats though :(.
I think it very fun picking up focus spells from other classes
Currently the problem is in the disparity.
You can poach Hymn of Healing from Bard Archetype. It is sustained and heals 2 points per rank on one character.
Poaching Garden of Healing from Animist, which is also sustained, would instead heal 1d4 per rank. But it would do it to you, and all allies (or enemies) within 10 feet of you. Maybe that risk of healing enemies is enough to balance things? But it seems a bit stronger.
Darkened Forest Form actually feels a bit less powerful than poaching Animal Form from Druid archetype. But not by much.
And then we get to Embodiment of Battle. You can poach Inspire Courage from Bard, which gives +1/+1 to attack/damage. You can't poach Stoke the Heart, which gives +2 up to +6 to damage only. Getting +1/+1 to attack/damage to yourself only seems reasonable to poach. Probably worse than getting Inspire Courage. +3/+3 to attack/damage seems like it is a bit much though.
As I said in the other topic. In general I thing that Animist focus spells probably will nerfed or the remaster will empower other classes focus spells.
Even without MC the Animist focus spell are pretty strong and cheap (no feat cost, 2 free focus points with another one freely in level 4).
This maybe here to designers get a feedback of how the players will deal with pontent single action sustainable focus spells but without worry about balance to avoid responses like "these focus spells are too weak" that may hurt the ideal of analise how good will be the usage experience of these type of focus spells.
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As I said in the other topic. In general I thing that Animist focus spells probably will nerfed or the remaster will empower other classes focus spells.
I am thinking up three possible ways of dealing with this - that doesn't involve giving Fighters a way to get an unprecedented +3/+3 bonus to their attack/damage.
1) Nerf Animist's focus spells to the level that Fighters and such are allowed to poach them.
2) Have the Remaster tweak things to the point that a focus spell that gives a +3/+3 bonus isn't seen as out of the ordinary.
3) Prevent poaching of the Animist focus spells.
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Now, #1 is certainly possible, but not very much fun. It means that Animist doesn't get any option to be an accurate and hard-hitting martial by using a focus spell. Which is absolutely something that Medium could do using the Champion spirit.
#2 is very unlikely. The basic premise of the Remaster is that the core math of the game isn't changing. So having it suddenly be an expected thing for Fighters to have a +3 status bonus to their accuracy on top of their Fighter proficiency doesn't fit that basic idea.
That leaves #3 - Prevent poaching of these nice focus spells.
That can be done a couple of ways. One is to not let the archetype get any focus spells from Animist. Another is to give one or more Archetype Apparitions that the Archetype can use. Whether they are full Apparition entries, or short entries that override things like the focus spell, but otherwise let you use the normal Apparitions.
Now, #1 is certainly possible, but not very much fun. It means that Animist doesn't get any option to be an accurate and hard-hitting martial by using a focus spell.
It's not too different of what Battle Oracles get. They get access to heavy armors + a group of martial weapons + a rage like ability (that still allows you to cast).
And that's my doubt. Will Oracles be boosted in remaster Core 2 books also to compensate that this benefit that comes at cost of curse penalty or Animist will be better using focus spells without curse cost?
That's the why I'm afraid that many of these Animist's focus spell could be nerfed in the final version. Because the both other classes specialized in spell focus (psychics and oracles) and these animist's focus spells are not even their main ability in terms of lore at last not so as psychic and oracles are in their focus spells.
The other point is that Embodiment Of Battle currently competes with Heroism something that a MC fighter can get. Not so sustainable (sorry for the pun) and so vertically strong but heroism also gives up to 4 usages of Heightened (6th) (+2) version of heroism for 4 times in a day with a complete set of spell casting MC without sacrificing an action and also giving the bonus to perception, saving throws, and skill checks too.
OK the cost of have to get a dedication feat + 3 spellcasting improvement feats and a Breadth feat but in terms of combined vertical + horizontal power is very competitive with Embodiment Of Battle that just gives +3 to attack and costs an action every round.
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and these animist's focus spells are not even their main ability
Uh, not sure that's right. The focus spell is one of the defining features of each spirit. It's the engine that makes the whole class work.
Now, #1 is certainly possible, but not very much fun. It means that Animist doesn't get any option to be an accurate and hard-hitting martial by using a focus spell.It's not too different of what Battle Oracles get. They get access to heavy armors + a group of martial weapons + a rage like ability (that still allows you to cast).
And it isn't poachable.
You can get the Oracle archetype. But First Revelation only lets you get the minor curse level from the Mystery. You get a replacement moderate level that just causes you to be permanently flat-footed instead of whatever normal effects a full Oracle gets.
So the Battle Oracle can only get Call to Arms as a focus spell, the -2 penalty to AC from minor curse, and maybe the Battlefield Persistence focus spell by taking another high level feat. None of that seems like a 'rage like ability that still allows you to cast spells'.
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Yeah I think the easiest solution here is to not make the animist focus spells poachable ... and possibly limit them to one copy of each focus spell at a time to do away with three biles per round (they could go further and just put a cap of 1 vision spell at a time if they want too).
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. When I mentioned Battle Oracle I was direct comparing their curses benefit to it without MC vs the benefit of Animist's Embodiment of Battle to it. It was just to show that this focus spells are currently a bit OP because when compared with a benefit from another class with a "similar" usage ability but that has a bit higher cost may justify that this focus spells could be bit too strong and risks to be nerfed to become more in par with other similar focus spells or that maybe we can get Oracles curses being buffed to get it more in par to these Animist's focus spell; It was to justify that both options have design space here.
The real MC comparison was using heroism.
and these animist's focus spells are not even their main abilityUh, not sure that's right. The focus spell is one of the defining features of each spirit. It's the engine that makes the whole class work.
I was comparing thematically. Mechanically is clear that the Vessel Spell is main ability of Apparitions but thematically the documents focuses even more in Avatar then on it. While Psychics and Oracles both thematically and mechanically consider their focus spells as their main abilities.
Well, whatever the reason for it, I think Oracle is a good point to compare to. Because the class itself gets a lot of good benefits out of those higher level curse effects. But they aren't able to be grabbed from the archetype.
Just like Rogue Sneak Attack.
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Also, Heroism is a spell, not a focus spell. So casting it has daily resource cost. It is like using a consumable to get an item bonus.
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and these animist's focus spells are not even their main abilityUh, not sure that's right. The focus spell is one of the defining features of each spirit. It's the engine that makes the whole class work.
Yeah, in practice the focus spells are easily the most powerful thing you have going for you. If you can be sustaining multiple Earth's Biles per turn, Emobdiment of Battle/Grudge Strike every turn, or running around maintaining healing on a couple of allies with maybe the occasional cantrip or real spell tossed out, why wouldn't you? The other spells are utility or big save the day options, not your main class features.
a lot of focus spell only have value for archetype
as for how overpowered embodiment of battle are anyone with can already take competitive edge
Sure.... *anyone 16th level of higher can take competitive edge.
(Side note to any devs reading, can we PLEASE get a "domains archetype" ala martial artist / blessed one / archer / mauler etc? something that carves a piece of a class and make it accesable at decent levels? You made tripple digit domain spells and made them unfeasable to tinker with for most poeple :P)
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While I am fairly certain that the strongest vessel spells are likely to be toned down quite a bit, I think it is also worth stressing just how important the action cost to Sustain is here: already on the Animist, you'll generally need Sustaining Dance to be able to move around, Sustain, and then either Strike or Cast a Spell, and opting into both via multiclassing is likely to be fairly costly. On classes that already have busy action economies, like Magi or shield Champions, it's unlikely to be worth it.
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While I am fairly certain that the strongest vessel spells are likely to be toned down quite a bit, I think it is also worth stressing just how important the action cost to Sustain is here: already on the Animist, you'll generally need Sustaining Dance to be able to move around, Sustain, and then either Strike or Cast a Spell, and opting into both via multiclassing is likely to be fairly costly. On classes that already have busy action economies, like Magi or shield Champions, it's unlikely to be worth it.
If it follows normal dedication players would pick up the archetype at 2, grab the focus spell at 4 and the pickup sustaining dance at 6. For some reason Psychic is an outlier and gets them right away...
The feat investment is a little steep. I wouldn't mind giving up picking these up though.
Maybe it is just my experience, but most characters often are in the position where they have 2 actions for attacks (or cast a spell) and 1 action for utility. Very rarely do I see a player use all 3 actions offensively and be effective.
Using one action for minor movement and pretty strong effect would be great for many characters.
The only exception for me is Kineticist, the class is built around always having ways to effectively use 3 actions.
If this is an option, I would 100% do this rather than play the Animist. Nothing else really interest me about them. I don't think this is a bad thing, the class just has just doesn't interest me much outside the focus spells. Right now they have the oddball casting, which some players like, I do not.
I do think that is the point of archetypes though, it allows players to take what they like from the class and mix them with their own class features. Every other class let's you do this. Witch (you can't get cantrips). You could get almost every other class early focus spells easily.
I do think that is the point of archetypes though, it allows players to take what they like from the class and mix them with their own class features. Every other class let's you do this. Witch (you can't get cantrips). You could get almost every other class early focus spells easily.
For the most part, yes that is the point of the Multiclass Archetypes.
But each Class has something that they either don't provide at all, or provide a hobbled version of it in the Archetype.
Rogue gets a hobbled Sneak Attack. And hobbled skill increases. And doesn't provide Racket benefits such as Dex bonus to damage.
Magus doesn't provide Arcane Cascade and Spellstrike is hobbled to once per combat.
Cleric doesn't provide Divine Font.
Witch doesn't provide Hex Cantrips. And I expect that some of the new Familiar abilities in Remastered Witch also won't be available or will be hobbled.
Fighter doesn't provide the Legendary weapon proficiency.
And so on.
So, what class features of Animist are going to be not provided or hobbled in the Multiclass Archetype?
I think that Vessel Spells will be provided but hobbled like oracles that get only one focus spell and is pretty limited.
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So, what class features of Animist are going to be not provided or hobbled in the Multiclass Archetype?
I personally think Animist should have more going for it than "strong focus spells". Not sure how much the playtest will change but right now I really don't like many of their other features. The "special" thing Animist would get...
The subclasses, Apparition Whirl, Possession and future ones.
The mix of prepared and spontaneous casting. Also, you can juggle the apparitions.
No, I am not a huge fan of these things, except the feats are powerful. It is very common to "steal most features of a class, but with slower progression". Not sure why Animist would be any different...
This is a different discussion but, I think their focus spell should be balanced to other focus spells and they should have more distinct features that make them fun than raw focus spell power. It would be nice if avatar was a scaling feature to interact from 1-20.
First think I notice when I look at the class "very powerful focus spells". Then I look at the rest of the class... I admit I am quite disappointed. The class seems really powerful right now but not seeing the fun right now. I know I might be the minority though. Some people seem to really like their design.
Psychic as an example get all sorts of fun features. They keep getting new focus spells and can go "super mode" for 2 turns while having interseting 3rd actions.
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I could see the archetype as
- being able to attune to only one Apparition each day and it not being primary (see below)
- having access to only one Apparition when you get the dedication with another one or two becoming available through Dedication feats (or just at higher levels)
- having to use an activity of 1 or 2 or 3 actions (depending on where the proper balance point is) to make your Apparition primary for the duration of the encounter. So, not being able to start an encounter with an Apparition as primary.
I'm in "don't allow any poaching" camp. Some of the focus spells are situationally scale to as good as ninth rank spells, and that feels like it's outside what archetypes should give.
That said, I'd be okay-ish with something like a level 16 feat that gives access to the focus spell, since Cleric, Champion, and Exemplar will all give access to Competitive Edge, a sustained +2 status bonus to attack that spikes to +4 whenever an enemy crits an attack. And sure, that's obviously not as good Embodiment of Battle, but Champion and Exemplar are martial classes that get the +1/+2 version natively at 8th and scale it up at 13th.
So, what class features of Animist are going to be not provided or hobbled in the Multiclass Archetype?I personally think Animist should have more going for it than "strong focus spells". Not sure how much the playtest will change but right now I really don't like many of their other features. The "special" thing Animist would get...
The subclasses, Apparition Whirl, Possession and future ones.
The mix of prepared and spontaneous casting. Also, you can juggle the apparitions.
No, I am not a huge fan of these things, except the feats are powerful. It is very common to "steal most features of a class, but with slower progression". Not sure why Animist would be any different...
This is a different discussion but, I think their focus spell should be balanced to other focus spells and they should have more distinct features that make them fun than raw focus spell power. It would be nice if avatar was a scaling feature to interact from 1-20.
First think I notice when I look at the class "very powerful focus spells". Then I look at the rest of the class... I admit I am quite disappointed. The class seems really powerful right now but not seeing the fun right now. I know I might be the minority though. Some people seem to really like their design.
Psychic as an example get all sorts of fun features. They keep getting new focus spells and can go "super mode" for 2 turns while having interseting 3rd actions.
I agree some things are underwhelming compared to the focus spells, but personally Gish is my go to Archetype and EoB is just.... *chef's kiss*.
But yes, feedback wise, the apparitions are underwhelming (UNLESS! Lore: X is being changed to scale at 3/7/15 in the remaster?) giving access to a couple non-scaling (?) Lore skills might help Recall Knowledge but on the other hand you need like a starting Int of 16 for Trained Lore to be any good on a WIS Key class (and with EoB / Animal Shape, that's a very MAD class).
Also i've mentioned it before. I sort of understand why the apparitions being >Tradition< based instead of spell list based would be 1) to strong 2) to complicated (If they were tradition based you'd wind up with something like Divine prepared and repertoire wise you'd have to track wich repertoires you have access to based on primary apparition but use spell slots colectively) - but them BEING spell list based seems very.... backwards. Them and the new Wizard Lists feel very 1E / 5E. Even Sorcerer's who have a spell list mechanic... kinda don't really pay for it as they have a normal repertoire AND extra spell slots.
I'm going to be completely honest 90% of the repertoire slots are going into Fireball / Phantasmal Calamity / >Fort save Blasty spell form RoE i don't remember the name of<. Because going on my preference for gishes mentioned before when i saw EoB my brain went "Ok, so it's a Martial with L spell progression, that can poach.... anything really, Double Slice, Triggerbrand Salvo, Twin Takedown, Flury of Blows, whatever - and then when there's 5+ enemies on screen.... Fireball! - SOLD".