I am worried about the lack of armor.

[Pronate11]

AC is important in pathfinder. While you don't need to max it out at level 1, you should probably have it maxed at lvl 5. with armor, maxing out AC is finding a balance between str and dex. Classes that use str get heavier armors, and classes that don't use lighter armors. Except for the Exemplar. It can use dex or str, but is limited to light armor, meaning it needs a minimum of 16 dex to max out its AC. This is very odd, and makes the exemplar quite MAD, particularly if it wants to use its various cha based abilities. The closest example is the monk, which is also dex or str based and has no armor, but better proficiency so it also needs at least 16 dex to get medium/ light armor AC. The difference is that monks get mountain stance, which gives them good AC without the dex investment. So exemplar is alone as a str based class with dex based armor. I feel like the class needs medium armor, or needs a mountain stance like feat that lets them not need 16 dex. Not inherently heavy armor levels, but at least breast plate levels. Because otherwise, dex based just seems way better, particularly with the various really cool ranged feats the class has.

[VampByDay]

I was wondering about that too. In the playtest announcement, they said that there was a way to play a 'normal guy in a toga with a spear.' and said that there was an option for unarmored play, but it doesn't appear in the playtest.

One easy and simple fix would be to basically give Exemplars a first level feat equivalent to a Nagaji's TITAN SCALES that they are considered proficient in. Another option is a wearable Ikon that is a shirt or toga or gi or something that gives them the equevelent of armor, though that would be bad as you couldn't have it active all the time..

[Squiggit]

I'd be really interested in support for a high strength character that doesn't want to take sentinel for heavy armor. Some sort of unarmored or light armored buff would be pretty neat, I think.

[JRutterbush]

There's a worn ikon that gives you +1 AC or +3 while you have a shield raised. There's a body ikon that lets you just heal 1d8 per round as an action at will. I think the idea is that this class is meant to use methods other than the raw AC bonus from armor to survive.

If you're going with a Dexterity build, then your light armor is fine. If you're going with a Strength build, then thematically you're much more likely to be taking the ikons that let you just no-sell damage or heal it quickly rather than focusing on not getting hit. Or, of course, be the classic "naked Spartan with a shield and spear" if you take the bracer ikon.

Whether that's mechanically viable or not remains to be seen, and that's what playtesting is for... but it definitely seems like it's the thematic vision they're going for.

[Pronate11]

JRutterbush wrote:

I think the idea is that this class is meant to use methods other than the raw AC bonus from armor to survive.

I could see that if getting rid of your defensive bonuses for other bonuses wasn't a main class feature. and the lack of AC only effects str characters. Dex characters gain the AC and the Ikons. and with the amount of flat damage the class is doing, I don't think that the +str to damage is enough to make up for it

[Evilgm]

JRutterbush wrote:

There's a worn ikon that gives you +1 AC or +3 while you have a shield raised.

It's still effectively only +1 if you have a shield raised, it just includes the shield's +2 circumstance as well.

JRutterbush wrote:

Or, of course, be the classic "naked Spartan with a shield and spear" if you take the bracer ikon.

The classic Spartans are usually shown wearing gleaming golden breastplates.

[JRutterbush]

Evilgm wrote:

It's still effectively only +1 if you have a shield raised, it just includes the shield's +2 circumstance as well.

Ah right, I haven't played PF2 in a while, I forgot they removed circumstance bonuses stacking if they're from different sources. Thanks for the reminder.

Quote:

The classic Spartans are usually shown wearing gleaming golden breastplates.

Sorry, I should have said "The classic image most people think of thanks to modern media."

[Golurkcanfly]

At a glance, the closest cousin to the Exemplar seems to be the Barbarian.

The Barbarian chooses between boosting its damage with Rage or keeping baseline AC without Rage. In addition, when it Rages, it has access to many unique options, most of which can be used multiple times without needing to reactivate Rage. It also reaches baseline AC with only 14 DEX in Medium Armor, and has base 12 HP to help make up for its lowered AC in Rage.

The Exemplar, similarly, chooses between boosting its damage with its Weapon Ikon and (potentially) boosting defense with its other Ikons. If the Exemplar has only +2 DEX (to better accommodate +4 STR like the typical Barbarian), it also makes the choice between having a damage boost or having baseline AC. However, the Exemplar also has base 10 HP, so it also needs more CON to make up for it. Even if you have +3 DEX and +4 STR, that means having fewer attribute boosts to spend elsewhere.

It takes a lot of attribute investment to reach a similar baseline as other martials while also having more restrictions on various different features and feats. I don't really see a case for this class not wanting to archetype out for better armor for STR Exemplars.

[Tactical Drongo]

Didn't even notice that
My head kind of jumped to 'medium armor for str exemplar, alright'

I think Medium armor would be a decent enough option
they dont get armor specialisation effects on their own and it makes it mostly a little easier to go str build instead of dex

also I distince remember a few of the 'example exemplars' from media wearing breastplates (from bronze) so that should totally be an armor

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, if the intention is for the Exemplar to be a class that doesn't mind taking hits, there shouldn't just be "damage mitigation effects" like healing, resistance, or bonus AC from your Ikon, there should also be "something cool you can do when you get hit."

[Grankless]

They definitely need medium armor. Sucks to have to have 14 dex or else explode easily.

[PossibleCabbage]

What the "light armor only" accomplishes, I think is that it strongly encourages you to use a finesse or ranged weapon, since every category of Weapon Ikon has at least one finesse option.

Though I have to say the +2 damage per die from Titan's Breaker makes the Nunchaku a lot more appealing.

[Pronate11]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

What the "light armor only" accomplishes, I think is that it strongly encourages you to use a finesse or ranged weapon, since every category of Weapon Ikon has at least one finesse option.

Though I have to say the +2 damage per die from Titan's Breaker makes the Nunchaku a lot more appealing.

You know what would really encourage you to use a ranged or finesse weapon? having the key ability score be dex alone instead of dex or str. If its supposed to be dex, make it dex. If its supposed to be either, give us support for both.

[VampByDay]

I mentioned this before, but if they gave the exemplar something similar to NAGAJI TITAIN SCALES at level 1, it would solve everyone's problems. Go check out the feat. All they'd have to do is say you're proficient in it and it's good to go.

[Candlejake]

some way to gain medium armor would be necessary, otherwise strenght exemplars become really bad. And tbh if i think of the classic demigods and heroic figures they seem mostyl strenght based in my head.

I like the idea for a scarcely armored Exemplar, but a feat or feature that equates to medium armor would be real nice for that. As Vamp said, something like Titan scales, a feat that lets your skin be real hard etc

[Gobhaggo]

Honestly I don't even think Heavy Armour at base would be wrong

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Gobhaggo wrote:

Honestly I don't even think Heavy Armour at base would be wrong

Maybe such an option being not being available it is a function of the available ability budget - if you give Exemplars heavy armor they’d be overpowered.

My problem is that limiting them from such armor needlessly removed more technologically advanced fighters. I’ve read what the inspirations for the class were, but the chassis can make possible so much more. Why does the godspark accident only happen to rubes?

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

str martial likely have plus 3 dex by level 5

light armor will not be much of a hindrance after that

[Karmagator]

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

str martial likely have plus 3 dex by level 5

light armor will not be much of a hindrance after that

Yes, but you need your AC at all levels, not only 5+. Folding like a wet tissue for the entirety of book 1 of an AP is nobodies' idea of fun, much less that of a melee character.

And to work around this, currently STR 18/DEX 16 is strictly mandatory for all STR Exemplars. That is a problem.

[CorvusMask]

I do understand why devs don't like to give legendary proficiency easily, but it does kinda feel off to me flavorwise that Exemplar is at max master in everything it does :'D This has nothing to do with balance math to me, I just find it funny flavor wise

That said, mechanically some of body imminence are rather strong. Like one of them is straight up "all enemies have -1 circumstance bonus in melee". Like it seems you can make strength exemplar and have 14 or less dex and relatively easily survive until level 5.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

CorvusMask wrote:

I do understand why devs don't like to give legendary proficiency easily, but it does kinda feel off to me flavorwise that Exemplar is at max master in everything it does :'D This has nothing to do with balance math to me, I just find it funny flavor wise

That said, mechanically some of body imminence are rather strong. Like one of them is straight up "all enemies have -1 circumstance bonus in melee". Like it seems you can make strength exemplar and have 14 or less dex and relatively easily survive until level 5.

didn't exemplar get legendary in will

pretty much standard martial chassis

[CorvusMask]

Hmm forgot that, still though all classes can get legendary in one save and skills.

[Puna'chong]

I don't think you can really avoid the armor math. There are of course people who will pick the stat array and armor that doesn't max out, but everyone at my tables will go with the highest AC they can get. That means Exemplar, right now, is a Dex KAS, finesse weapon class.

Also, thematically, it doesn't make much sense to me to not have medium armor here. A gleaming breastplate is primo mythic status. There's even an Achilles' Heel ability and uhh the dude's legendary for his armor. It's a whole thing.

The really important thing for me here is that I think Exemplar wants to either be Str or Dex and let the other one languish a bit, because if you put all of your boosts into Str and Dex just to have a passable AC you lose out on a lot of fun builds that focus on Cha for cunning/charismatic but strong warriors (Maui), or the potential for a Thor-like figure that has the wiggle room to take a Druid dedication at level 2.

Again, without medium armor you could allocate these other ability scores for a bigger variety of builds, but not if you want to be a Str Exemplar with good AC.

[CorvusMask]

I do think Exemplar has potential to be like swashbuckler which takes until higher levels to fully get "online", but to lesser extend since there are still ways to compensate for not having the "best optimal stats"

Like just saying, you can make strength exemplar with ac equivalent of barbarian in rage pretty easily

[Puna'chong]

That just highlights how little a Str Exemplar gets for its troubles.

Barbarians get their full, medium armor AC all the time. Then they can opt into more damage, temp hp, and other abilities, while still having stats to shift around for intimidation, to bolster their Con, or whatever they want.

[Karmagator]

CorvusMask wrote:

I do think Exemplar has potential to be like swashbuckler which takes until higher levels to fully get "online", but to lesser extend since there are still ways to compensate for not having the "best optimal stats"

Just no. Both the gunslinger and swashbuckler do this and it has absolutely failed them both. This has never been a good idea and never will be.

CorvusMask wrote:

Like just saying, you can make strength exemplar with ac equivalent of barbarian in rage pretty easily

Sure, but without barbarian HP, resistances or damage. So why would I want to? Why should that be acceptable?

[PossibleCabbage]

It just feels like if you're playing an 18 Str Exemplar, you're just also going to also have 16 Dex. Which is fine, I've played monks like this, but it puts a lot of pressure on your starting stats.

[Gobhaggo]

Also Monks can still get 'heavy' armour woth mountain stance

[CorvusMask]

I mean... If you make 18 strength exemplar with 14 dex and take the "enemies get -1 circumstance bonus agaisnt you in melee" ikon, you essentially have same ac as fighter in medium armor. You just don't surpass the math until level 5.

That is what I meant there, its not ideal since it kinda forces you to "fill the gap" to protect yourself from crits, but its possible so not as bad as other classes where you are really ineffective at low levels. (when I said "has potential to be like sawashbuckler", I meant that in negative sense)

[Karmagator]

CorvusMask wrote:

That is what I meant there, its not ideal since it kinda forces you to "fill the gap" to protect yourself from crits, but its possible so not as bad as other classes where you are really ineffective at low levels. (when I said "has potential to be like sawashbuckler", I meant that in negative sense)

Ah, ok. Sorry, I misunderstood ^^

[thatdamncat789]

I was worried in the other direction a little. The class seems to want to allow for strength oriented characters and dexterity ones, but you have to invest into dexterity at least a bit because you can't wear medium armor. Comparing this to say the thaumaturge where I can play a charisma-strength oriented one because I can slap breastplate on and only get a -1 to my AC.

Since domain spells use charisma, unless I'm only using utility and healing ones that starts to feel like I'm spreading my stats around a lot? Strength for damage and hitting (depending on the weapon), dexterity for AC and potentially the weapon of choice, you'll want more con to cope with being easier to hit since a crit might shred you? Then charisma for the feint oriented cunning exemplar and your domain spell powers.

[Unicore]

It seems pretty clear a STR and DEX class by design to me, like the monk. Even if you KAS Dex to get a +1 AC for 5 levels, you very well might be equal with your STR at many levels and if you start off with STR you end up with better damage (by weapons you can use and the added str mod) by the end game with absolutely no draw backs compared to going finesse.

Not boosting STR at all at low levels feels like it will be a much bigger set back for the character than a point less AC for a short period of time.

[Gobhaggo]

I mean even Monk has Mountain stance to get heavy armour.

And also an exemplar can just opt to go for ranged without any feat investment. A str cha focus bruiser shouldn't be stretched so thin with its attributes imo

[Arachnofiend]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It just feels like if you're playing an 18 Str Exemplar, you're just also going to also have 16 Dex. Which is fine, I've played monks like this, but it puts a lot of pressure on your starting stats.

For a class who's influences are all known for being big personalities having to dump your mental stats is not fine. STR/CHA is probably the most obvious direction to go for this class so the chassis really needs to support it.

[PossibleCabbage]

I'm not sure what it would cost to put medium armor in the class budget, but I think whatever it is I'd be willing to pay it. I'm sort of sick of "people taking Sentinel over and over again in order to have the needed armor class."

Less AC is probably the worst way to do "unstoppable badass who can take hits" because of the whole +/- 10 crit rule.

[Invictus Fatum]

Personally I'm in the camp of doing something similar to the Kineticist armor feats. You have to make a lasting choice for them (choosing an element that will follow you) and so it is more meaningful than just a lvl 1 feat.

So, an ikon that gives the equivalent of medium armor that follows your light armor proficiency is my thought. More than just a feat and that is chosen in place of another ikon, so you have to really think about it.

[Squiggit]

Medium armor would definitely help build variety a lot.

On the other hand, right now the Exemplar is the only class in the game that has a split KAS and a justifiable reason to use a Finesse weapon, so it would be kind of a bummer if the scale just gets tipped the other way by introducing strong defensive options for the strexmplar.

[PossibleCabbage]

Invictus Fatum wrote:

So, an ikon that gives the equivalent of medium armor that follows your light armor proficiency is my thought. More than just a feat and that is chosen in place of another ikon, so you have to really think about it.

The problem is that the ikons don't do anything if you haven't put your divine spark in them to get the immanence effect. So an ikon that gives medium armor would be one where you'd want to make sure you always have it active off turn. Which basically means you're ignoring one of your 3 ikons since you're going to want to have your weapon up when you're attacking then turn on your defense.

I wonder if Ikons shouldn't have some sort of passive effect that functions even when your divine spark is elsewhere, just because of lingering divine energy or something. That would let a worn or body icon give you medium armor.

[gesalt]

I don't suppose the idea of just using alternate stats is off the table? Add 1/2 your str (or 100% of whatever mental stat) to AC and reflex saves in place of dex and you neatly sidestep most or all of the pressure on your starting stat array or need to take sentinel for bulwark. You'd need to give something to dex too, but anything to encourage more diverse builds imo.

[Golurkcanfly]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Invictus Fatum wrote:

So, an ikon that gives the equivalent of medium armor that follows your light armor proficiency is my thought. More than just a feat and that is chosen in place of another ikon, so you have to really think about it.

The problem is that the ikons don't do anything if you haven't put your divine spark in them to get the immanence effect. So an ikon that gives medium armor would be one where you'd want to make sure you always have it active off turn. Which basically means you're ignoring one of your 3 ikons since you're going to want to have your weapon up when you're attacking then turn on your defense.

I wonder if Ikons shouldn't have some sort of passive effect that functions even when your divine spark is elsewhere, just because of lingering divine energy or something. That would let a worn or body icon give you medium armor.

I think something that would help this would be for Ikons to have a passive, non-Immanence effect as well that's just always on. So, an Ikon that emulates Medium Armor would grant typical medium armor AC as a passive without Immanence, and then it would add fast healing (or some other bonus) on top with Immanence.

[Shinigami02]

gesalt wrote:

I don't suppose the idea of just using alternate stats is off the table? Add 1/2 your str (or 100% of whatever mental stat) to AC and reflex saves in place of dex and you neatly sidestep most or all of the pressure on your starting stat array or need to take sentinel for bulwark. You'd need to give something to dex too, but anything to encourage more diverse builds imo.

Unfortunately this kind of thing is something they've explicitly wanted to avoid since PF2e was first in development (outside of some exceptionally rare specific exceptions) so highly unlikely.

[YuriP]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

What the "light armor only" accomplishes, I think is that it strongly encourages you to use a finesse or ranged weapon, since every category of Weapon Ikon has at least one finesse option.

Though I have to say the +2 damage per die from Titan's Breaker makes the Nunchaku a lot more appealing.

Honestly for my just encourages to take Armor Proficiency general feat + Sentinel Dedication.

Current chassis is just forcing a MAD to enforce the look of almost naked Greek demigod "wearing" its perfect body with minimum protection.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

YuriP wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

What the "light armor only" accomplishes, I think is that it strongly encourages you to use a finesse or ranged weapon, since every category of Weapon Ikon has at least one finesse option.

Though I have to say the +2 damage per die from Titan's Breaker makes the Nunchaku a lot more appealing.

Honestly for my just encourages to take Armor Proficiency general feat + Sentinel Dedication.

Current chassis is just forcing a MAD to enforce the look of almost naked Greek demigod "wearing" its perfect body with minimum protection.

This is my main frustration with the class as presented - the flimsy breadth of thematic options made possible. Folx upthread are suggesting that monks can “get” “heavy armor” with a stance, which works I guess for the fairly tight theme of the unarmored martial artist - my point is that regardless of the RL myth inspirations for the Exemplar, why do only those “classical/rustic” tropes get to be expressed in Golarion where we have a range of demon lords, android gods, armiger warlords etc as deific beings?

Regardless of whether it can be an Ikon, where is the option for a heavier armored/moderately caparisoned non-laplap style Exemplar? Without multiclass dedications. Currently it feels like folx will have to bolt on options. I guess i always think of subclasses or suites within the class to choose a thematic path, with every stream allowing for exponentially possible variation. If this isn’t really an option given the “inspirations for the class” then I’d say that’s a major misstep.

[shroudb]

Could be fixed with a new "Foundation Epithet" at level 1:

(insert fancy name for fancy nakid legend): as long as you are unarmored, you gain X reaction that gives Y resistance to damage
Nimble: as long as you wear light armor you gain X bonus to reflex
Fortified: you gain proficiency with medium armor and your proficiency increases at the same levels as your light armor proficiency

---

solves the issues imo without making the Dex builds feeling worse since now it is a choice of "which benefit to get".

(i am aware that in later levels, 6+ when you start getting other reactions, the nakid option will start to look weaker, but by that level, you would have the time to either way put at least one KAS into dex/str to even out the drawbacks of going unarmored either way.)

[TheGentlemanDM]

All of these proposed solutions would fix the issue - we just need one of them implemented:

A) Have passive effects from your Ikons:
Include a Body Ikon that grants AC with a DEX cap while unarmoured.
Include a Worn Ikon that grants scaling medium armour proficiency.

B) Have a 1st level initial epithet that determines your defensive choice:
Bronze Skinned - AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured
Nimble - +2 circumstance bonus to Reflex while wearing light armour
Adamant - scaling medium proficiency, and armour spec upon reaching Expert

C) Have a 1st level feat that provides AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured.

The exact value of the AC bonus is debatable. If it's +2 AC/+3 DEX cap, it's in line with existing unarmoured options like Scales of the Dragon and Animal Skin. Unfortunately, it's still in line with light armour, and thus doesn't solve the problem.

+3 AC/+2 DEX cap puts it in line with STR Eidolons and medium armour, which seems appropriate for the 'demigod' class. It means STR characters still need 14 DEX, but starting at 12 and increasing one step at 5th is acceptable for them.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Sentinel Archetype anyone for 1 level dip?

[PossibleCabbage]

PF2e does have a general problem with not really supporting completely unarmored warriors very well. You can make this work on a monk, but you're going to either need Mountain Stance or you're going for a +5 Dex Mod. There's relatively little support for a "beefy guy with no armor who doesn't increase their dex to +5" if that person wants to fight in a way that's not really available to the monk (e.g. "with a huge sword")

The exemplar is probably the place to do this, in case you want to play Elric or something.

[Gobhaggo]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

All of these proposed solutions would fix the issue - we just need one of them implemented:

A) Have passive effects from your Ikons:
Include a Body Ikon that grants AC with a DEX cap while unarmoured.
Include a Worn Ikon that grants scaling medium armour proficiency.

B) Have a 1st level initial epithet that determines your defensive choice:
Bronze Skinned - AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured
Nimble - +2 circumstance bonus to Reflex while wearing light armour
Adamant - scaling medium proficiency, and armour spec upon reaching Expert

C) Have a 1st level feat that provides AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured.

The exact value of the AC bonus is debatable. If it's +2 AC/+3 DEX cap, it's in line with existing unarmoured options like Scales of the Dragon and Animal Skin. Unfortunately, it's still in line with light armour, and thus doesn't solve the problem.

+3 AC/+2 DEX cap puts it in line with STR Eidolons and medium armour, which seems appropriate for the 'demigod' class. It means STR characters still need 14 DEX, but starting at 12 and increasing one step at 5th is acceptable for them.

or just give Medium armour Prof. That works well too.

[shroudb]

Gobhaggo wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

All of these proposed solutions would fix the issue - we just need one of them implemented:

A) Have passive effects from your Ikons:
Include a Body Ikon that grants AC with a DEX cap while unarmoured.
Include a Worn Ikon that grants scaling medium armour proficiency.

B) Have a 1st level initial epithet that determines your defensive choice:
Bronze Skinned - AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured
Nimble - +2 circumstance bonus to Reflex while wearing light armour
Adamant - scaling medium proficiency, and armour spec upon reaching Expert

C) Have a 1st level feat that provides AC bonus with a DEX cap while unarmoured.

The exact value of the AC bonus is debatable. If it's +2 AC/+3 DEX cap, it's in line with existing unarmoured options like Scales of the Dragon and Animal Skin. Unfortunately, it's still in line with light armour, and thus doesn't solve the problem.

+3 AC/+2 DEX cap puts it in line with STR Eidolons and medium armour, which seems appropriate for the 'demigod' class. It means STR characters still need 14 DEX, but starting at 12 and increasing one step at 5th is acceptable for them.

or just give Medium armour Prof. That works well too.

wouldn't fix the issue of people wanting to play barechested strongmen.

[Gobhaggo]

True, forgot to think of that.

Though 1 level 1 feat might not work since Exemplars don't get a level 1 feat