I ask, because the Apparitions definitely seem Primal-themed.
(EDIT: Or Occult themed)
I think I understand some reasons it's Divine:
* It's in a book about a divine war
* It's a way to provide support for the new Spirit damage mechanics
* The "Spirit" (and apparitions are spirits) essence sits between Occult and Divine
However:
* (EDIT: Most of) The apparitions seem united by their primal theming
* There is demand for a "blaster caster" right now, Primal fits the bill, and we already have 2 other Divine focused casters, but only 1 other Primal
Maybe another approach is to allow the Animist to take up either Occult, Divine, or Primal magic? Though do we have a number of other "pick your tradition" classes...
I don't pretend to have an easy solution and I understand the juggling act that is designing! =D
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It's in a book about a divine war. I think the Apparitions covering some primal and occult options adds good flavor.
The class partially exists to support Tian Xia getting a lot of love as a setting in the same year, and I think it's important to present non-deific faiths as still being just a 'divine' as the alternative; otherwise, you get a lot of PF1-style "the Sarkorians were confused about what they called gods" stuff that feels pretty icky.
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we have good blaster casters currently
It's kind of a bummer we're getting another divine caster instead of a primal one, but it fits well enough either way.
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Note that despite the preponderance of "nature spirits" the primal tradition does not interact with spiritual essence (it's material+vital).
Making "spirits: the class" a primal spellcaster would be weird.
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IMO the class looks like more to fit the occult tradition than the divine or primal ones.
The class is currently divine basically because the designers wanted. There's little mechanical and IMO lore concepts to justify it to be divine. Nothing relates the class to the gods nor to divine energies like oracles.
Some apparitions are more primal while others are more occult but none looks like divine.
The feats are a mix between cleric, druids and witch. Some feats works similar to cleric feats to give/improve healing others helps the shapeshifting and other are more linked to your apparitions. None of the looks like really divine.
The only thing linked to the divine is spiritual damage. In general the thing is more like "the spiritual damage is divine so to a class that deals with the spirit lets put it as divine because of it"?
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The cool spell poaching ability of Apparition Spellcasting wouldn't be nearly as cool if the Primal and Occult spells that you were getting were already on your Primal or Occult Animist Spellcasting list.
So do you want Vanguard of Roaring Waters or Imposter in Hidden Places to be giving Divine spells instead so that Animist can cast Primal/Occult?
Design Manager
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Note that despite the preponderance of "nature spirits" the primal tradition does not interact with spiritual essence (it's material+vital).
Making "spirits: the class" a primal spellcaster would be weird.
Divine magic is also the intersection of the spirit and life essences, and the animist is, themself, an intersection of those two things. They give life to their apparitions, and their apparitions act as links to spiritual powers and realms. They're a type of divinity that exists separately from gods but achieving the same types of power through the union of the animist and their apparitions, with the two halves forming a whole that can channel and wield the same type of power as that bestowed by deities.
It's very much just as much of a "religious" class as the cleric, but that religion is one that exists on a level equal to but different from the ones built around gods, since it recognizes the divinity that exists when a mortal being can act as a bridge for spirits, alchemizing their two energies into divine magic.
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Animism is itself a kind of religion irl after all
I'm genuinely hoping for a class archetype for the Champion in this book to let you be a Champion from an animist society.
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Note that despite the preponderance of "nature spirits" the primal tradition does not interact with spiritual essence (it's material+vital).
Making "spirits: the class" a primal spellcaster would be weird.
Divine magic is also the intersection of the spirit and life essences, and the animist is, themself, an intersection of those two things. They give life to their apparitions, and their apparitions act as links to spiritual powers and realms. They're a type of divinity that exists separately from gods but achieving the same types of power through the union of the animist and their apparitions, with the two halves forming a whole that can channel and wield the same type of power as that bestowed by deities.
It's very much just as much of a "religious" class as the cleric, but that religion is one that exists on a level equal to but different from the ones built around gods, since it recognizes the divinity that exists when a mortal being can act as a bridge for spirits, alchemizing their two energies into divine magic.
I understand your logic but it still hard to swallow.
It still fragile because even using your explanation if you switch the Divine word for Primal or Occult it will make more sense in general.
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In addition to everything Michael Sayre said above, Divine is the right list for a class that is going to be poaching a lot of spells off of other lists. It is pretty much the list designed for it from the beginning. I too hope (and am fairly sure we will) get more cool apparitions, although I do feel like the inclusion of vangaurd of roaring waters fit the exact request I have been making for the ability to make bargains with the river to carry me swiftly and slow down my enemies.
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I think divine functions with what Michael Sayre and Unicore said. I think it is extremely important that a divine class, that is associated with a type of religion that is not connected to deities is important. I think it functions in the lore, but I think it is also very important that we ask ourselves about the historical impact about assigning certain faiths/culture to *divine* and others to nature or the occult.
I think that again people are bringing too much baggage from the real world into Golarion.
The Divine tradition is used by the deities of Golarion and outer planes, and by various spellcasting classes. It is a combination of Spirit and Life magical essences. Any similarities to real gods, cultures, people, or places is purely coincidental.
I think divine functions with what Michael Sayre and Unicore said. I think it is extremely important that a divine class, that is associated with a type of religion that is not connected to deities is important. I think it functions in the lore, but I think it is also very important that we ask ourselves about the historical impact about assigning certain faiths/culture to *divine* and others to nature or the occult.
..but Oracle is already a divine class that isn't necesarily tied to the gods (as per PF2e at least).
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I think divine functions with what Michael Sayre and Unicore said. I think it is extremely important that a divine class, that is associated with a type of religion that is not connected to deities is important. I think it functions in the lore, but I think it is also very important that we ask ourselves about the historical impact about assigning certain faiths/culture to *divine* and others to nature or the occult...but Oracle is already a divine class that isn't necesarily tied to the gods (as per PF2e at least).
Yes which is why I put the additional part about being tied to a type of religion. The Animist is very much connected to a religious/cultural view of the world that centers spirits and not gods. Oracles can have nothing to do with faith, as can Divine Sorcerers, Divine Summoners, and Divine witches.
The Animist is the first that appears to have connections to such a practice.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note that despite the preponderance of "nature spirits" the primal tradition does not interact with spiritual essence (it's material+vital).
Making "spirits: the class" a primal spellcaster would be weird.
Divine magic is also the intersection of the spirit and life essences, and the animist is, themself, an intersection of those two things. They give life to their apparitions, and their apparitions act as links to spiritual powers and realms. They're a type of divinity that exists separately from gods but achieving the same types of power through the union of the animist and their apparitions, with the two halves forming a whole that can channel and wield the same type of power as that bestowed by deities.
It's very much just as much of a "religious" class as the cleric, but that religion is one that exists on a level equal to but different from the ones built around gods, since it recognizes the divinity that exists when a mortal being can act as a bridge for spirits, alchemizing their two energies into divine magic.
It's been a second since I read through my copy of SoM, but is there something fundamental to Divine magic that requires a link between some kind of mortal and a spiritual power? Like deities have power but when they act through mortals it manifests as Divine magic? Or is it just a metaphysical pool of energy that deities draw from and can bestow to their worshippers, and the Animist taps into that same pool?
What would have made this an Occult class (which would be my first impression) rather than Divine? In my mind Occult is much more associated with communing with spirits that exist outside the normal live-die-go-see-Pharasma loop, while Divine deals more with the various outsiders and their planes.
EdIt: Also, the descriptions in the class all make it seem like a Charisma class. What's the distinction between Charisma and Wisdom that's drawing this class towards Wisdom?
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The one notable case for divine is the simple fact that people are arguing for both primal and Occult and the "halves" of those traditions that are leading to people arguing them are the halves that Divine also shares. Like, sure, "Spirit" spirits might have a slight more Occult lean in how they're depicted, but Divine also has it as a major element of it (there's a reason like 90% of Haunts can be dealt with via Occultism and Religion). Likewise, sure, "Life/Vitae" spirits might have a slight more Primal lean in how they're depicted usually, but Divine also has Life as one of the things which makes it up.
If you look at the traditions as the essences which make them up, Divine makes the most sense for above, and if you ignore all that and just go by vibes... well, it is a class about gaining power from religion, even if it's a non-theistic one.
Also, the apparition aren't all primal-themed anyway so that reasoning seems weird to me (and even if they weren't then there's still the argument for it being "split tradition" so to speak). Imposter in Hidden Places for example is Occult whilst Witness to Ancient Battles is Arcane.
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I kind of like the way it borrows spells as is, divine is a decent base.
IMO I think the way the animist works doesn't even really map to a tradition very well. They deal in apparitions, which are clearly spirits, but those spirits are also tied to or represent things within the physical world, i.e. the material essence. Normally these essences are incompatible with each other, but the praxis by which the animist operates allows them to be bridged anyways.
Divine spellcaster who gets to poach cool spells is a decent way to represent that.