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I'm just saying Golarion would not be the pushover people seem to think. There are beings with the power to level towns, no one on earth has that same power in 1920.Can you cite what spells you would use to "level towns"?
Earthquake, one of the best for that, covers an 80' spread. An area less than 50 meters in diameter. And it is an 8th-level spell.
Tsunamit is even better, but it is a 9th-level spell.
I don't recall low-level spells capable of doing widespread devastation.
Sure, a 17th-level caster will do a lot of damage, as long as he has available spells. Then he will start faltering. A war against Earth armies will not be made by 20 minutes adventuring days and then rest.
Earth armies will suffer a lot in asymmetric warfare, but it will be asymmetric warfare.
I said beings not spells as I was thinking about high CR creatures like dragons on a rampage. Spell wise there's also what Razmiran used but like I said was looking more at creatures than a spellcaster when I posted that.
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I said beings not spells as I was thinking about high CR creatures like dragons on a rampage. Spell wise there's also what Razmiran used but like I said was looking more at creatures than a spellcaster when I posted that.I'm just saying Golarion would not be the pushover people seem to think. There are beings with the power to level towns, no one on earth has that same power in 1920.Can you cite what spells you would use to "level towns"?
Earthquake, one of the best for that, covers an 80' spread. An area less than 50 meters in diameter. And it is an 8th-level spell.
Tsunamit is even better, but it is a 9th-level spell.
I don't recall low-level spells capable of doing widespread devastation.
Sure, a 17th-level caster will do a lot of damage, as long as he has available spells. Then he will start faltering. A war against Earth armies will not be made by 20 minutes adventuring days and then rest.
Earth armies will suffer a lot in asymmetric warfare, but it will be asymmetric warfare.
Most creatures would be in an even worse place than people. Creatures capable of destroying a city are huge targets for long-range fire.
The exception are incorporeal creatures. Without magic, they can't be damaged, and things like shadows can multiply exponentially by killing people. A single shadow can start an extinction event.
Other incorporeal undead are less dangerous, as they generally stay in the place of their death or near an object with which they fixated in life.
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I said beings not spells as I was thinking about high CR creatures like dragons on a rampage. Spell wise there's also what Razmiran used but like I said was looking more at creatures than a spellcaster when I posted that.I'm just saying Golarion would not be the pushover people seem to think. There are beings with the power to level towns, no one on earth has that same power in 1920.Can you cite what spells you would use to "level towns"?
Earthquake, one of the best for that, covers an 80' spread. An area less than 50 meters in diameter. And it is an 8th-level spell.
Tsunamit is even better, but it is a 9th-level spell.
I don't recall low-level spells capable of doing widespread devastation.
Sure, a 17th-level caster will do a lot of damage, as long as he has available spells. Then he will start faltering. A war against Earth armies will not be made by 20 minutes adventuring days and then rest.
Earth armies will suffer a lot in asymmetric warfare, but it will be asymmetric warfare.Most creatures would be in an even worse place than people. Creatures capable of destroying a city are huge targets for long-range fire.
The exception are incorporeal creatures. Without magic, they can't be damaged, and things like shadows can multiply exponentially by killing people. A single shadow can start an extinction event.
Other incorporeal undead are less dangerous, as they generally stay in the place of their death or near an object with which they fixated in life.
True but as far as I'm aware you can't create shadows deliberately only corporeal undead otherwise you could just visit say a new york grave yard and raise a bunch of them then turn them loose on the surrounding city.
Shadows would be highly nasty, as would Succubi.
The thought of doing counter insurgency things against teleporting, shapeshifting, telepaths with in inbuild uninterceptible long range command and control system (profane gift), who are also insanely charismatic and capable of offensive mind control is pretty terrifying.
The real danger of earth is demons with modern firearms.
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Shadows would be highly nasty, as would Succubi.
The thought of doing counter insurgency things against teleporting, shapeshifting, telepaths with in inbuild uninterceptible long range command and control system (profane gift), who are also insanely charismatic and capable of offensive mind control is pretty terrifying.
The real danger of earth is demons with modern firearms.
In theory they should already have some, somewhere. I mean these are beings who operate on multiple worlds and your telling me none of them had more advanced firearms than Golarion has and/or no outsiders grabbed them? Its like the dark elves vs asgard fight in the marvel films. A multi-world space faring society with magitech fight with swords and spears not laser rifles and gravity grenades?
I also recall in D20 modern quite a few supernatural critters had resistance or immunity to balistic (firearm damage) so you could shoot them all day with an assault rifle and do literally zero damage because they were flat out immune to it.
A few other Pathfinder setting facts to throw into the mix ...
Earth is in an entirely different galaxy than Golarion (and Androffa is in a third galaxy). So portals and double Plane Shifts are really the only feasible ways to go. Technically, there is also Interplanetary Teleport (a L 9 spell).
(In my homebrew variant on the Golarion setting, I've limited Interplanetary Teleport to working only within the same star system. There exists an epic variant which is the equivalent of a L 10+ spell which is "Intersystem Teleport" and an even higher level one which is "Intergalactic Teleport".)
Earth in the Pathfinder setting is a "Pulp Earth" variant. That gives rise to people like Doc Savage, Tarzan, John Carter (the guy on Barsoom/Mars), etc.
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A few other Pathfinder setting facts to throw into the mix ...
Earth is in an entirely different galaxy than Golarion (and Androffa is in a third galaxy). So portals and double Plane Shifts are really the only feasible ways to go. Technically, there is also Interplanetary Teleport (a L 9 spell).
(In my homebrew variant on the Golarion setting, I've limited Interplanetary Teleport to working only within the same star system. There exists an epic variant which is the equivalent of a L 10+ spell which is "Intersystem Teleport" and an even higher level one which is "Intergalactic Teleport".)
Earth in the Pathfinder setting is a "Pulp Earth" variant. That gives rise to people like Doc Savage, Tarzan, John Carter (the guy on Barsoom/Mars), etc.
Not so sure I like that greater teleport already got a nerf to only work on a planet, nerfing interplanetary just feels unecessary. At 9th level it should be able to get you across systems.
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Let me be more clear.
What we know, for sure, is that an ordinary peasant girl from Earth, meets a Norn, learns how to be a witch, adopts the name Baba Yaga, travels to Golarian founds a new kingdom and becomes a virtual goddess.
This account sounds suspiciously like Earthlings can do whatever they like in Golarian, nobody will stop them. This is a clear counter example to the baseless assertion that a team of high level adventures will show up to thwart the plans of Earthling invaders.
As for Golarian not being in decline. The current age is the age of lost omens which literally began with the god of humanity dying and is characterised by all the strife that followed from that calamity.
You are vastly underselling the power of Baba Yaga. I don't know her power level at the time she took over Irisen, because it's not published that way. But her published stats currently placed her at a 20th level character with 10 mythic ranks. So it shouldn't be surprising she can conquer land and set up a country. I would expect 20th level mythic character to be able to accomplish that. Hell, Razmir has done it as "only" a 19th level wizard. So any argument that Baba Yaga proves Earth would somehow stomp Golarion doesn't hold any water, because when I talk about the forces of Earth, we're talking about conventional modern armies. If you want to talk about potential magical forces that exist in the Pathfinder version of Earth going up against some potential forces of Golarion, you basically have two complete unknowns because we don't know what forces are fighting.
But we do know adventurers exist on Golarion. So it's not out of line to assume high level characters would defend against an invasion.
You might make an argument that Humanity is on a decline, but not the whole of Golarion. But I don't even buy that argument. The key characteristic of the Age of Lost Omens is that now even the gods don't know what's going to happen.
If nothing stops demons from teleporting on Earth... why aren't there more? There are undead that form without magic, just tragic deaths or murders or unfulfilled business. Those happen on Earth likely in far greater quantities than Golarion. If Earth isn't in another dimension, then the reason there aren't more than scattered stories of haunted locations or verifiable encounters indicates that either they'd be like a tissue underwater in Earth's vicinity (just rapidly losing substance/essence), or there's some divine presence that nixes/nixed such things long ago, maybe even just a more efficient Death god that deals with it with a method, power, or even Celestial Bureaucracy that would gobsmack Pharasma, and any undead spirits/souls drifting near Earth...
I mean the real answer to this is that very little is written about what Earth as whole is like in Pathfinder's Golarion centric universe.
Perhaps the Earth in this setting does have a demon and ghost problem. We don't really know for sure.
I will say that my assessment is based on the real Earth of the approximate 1920s to 1930s vs Golarion.
You can't really do an assessment of the Earth set in Golarion's universe because we don't know enough about it.
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A single mid-level wizard specializing in enchantment could take over just about any country on earth in a fairly short time. Spells like sow though and charm person combined with a few illusions like invisibility will get him access to our leaders. Once he has access to our leaders spells like suggestion, dominate person, and Geas will give him control. Lesser geas is all he probably needs.
None of leaders on earth are going to be high level characters and most will have low will saves. Nor are they likely to have extremely high stats. Obviously they have no magic items to boost stats or saves. Nor are they likely to have feats that boost will saves. +7 is probably about as high of a will save as you are going to see, but most will be about +3 or lower.
Considering how many people fall for the bull s!&@ people spread without magic how bad do you think it will be with magic. Having the stronger army means nothing if you control the leaders of the opposing side.
A single mid-level wizard specializing in enchantment could take over just about any country on earth in a fairly short time. Spells like sow though and charm person combined with a few illusions like invisibility will get him access to our leaders. Once he has access to our leaders spells like suggestion, dominate person, and Geas will give him control. Lesser geas is all he probably needs.
None of leaders on earth are going to be high level characters and most will have low will saves. Nor are they likely to have extremely high stats. Obviously they have no magic items to boost stats or saves. Nor are they likely to have feats that boost will saves. +7 is probably about as high of a will save as you are going to see, but most will be about +3 or lower.
Considering how many people fall for the bull s#%~ people spread without magic how bad do you think it will be with magic. Having the stronger army means nothing if you control the leaders of the opposing side.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent who is acting suspiciously is assumed to be a communist spy and is shot dead.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent is walking down a tunnel when he sees a bright light like a lantern in the distance. He calls out, but receives no response, suspecting trouble he goes invisible and is crushed by a freight train.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent arrives in an alien city and marvels at the sights and sounds. He flies up to take a better look and sees a convenient structure to perch upon. He alights on the huge metal frame coming into contact with two thick metal cables and is immediately electrocuted.
So a few things about Earth in the Golarion setting:
* It used to have as much magic and magical creatures as Golarion, but now they are almost all but gone.
* There are some "mystics" on earth, which may or may not have magic….
…. Golarian setting Earth is then same setting as John Carter and Red Sonja at the very least. Along with the Cthulhu connection means that Golarion Earth is easily in the same setting as DC, with all the shenanigans that entails. There is also a thin line connecting it to Marvel via Nick Fury, again with all the shenanigans that entails. Note: This also means that Golarion would have access to all those shenanigans but the fact earth has no magic I think makes it more impressive.
Is this official Paizo? Or your own campaign?
@ Claxon,
I think you are missing the crux of the issue. This is like an apples vs oranges comparison. We are comparing two incompatible universes. The real universe of Earth and the fantastical universe of Pathfinder lore. To reconcile the two you need to convert one to the other, either Earth to Pathfinder rules or Golarian to the rules of actual mundane reality.
If we assume Pathfinder rules apply throughout then Earth has legendary heroes and villains that are just as capable as any from Golarian. This assumption is supported by the specific case of Baba Yaga and appears to be how Earth works within the Pathfinder universe. Under that assumption the heroes of each side effectively cancel out and Earth will crush Golarian with better organisation and superior numbers. Insisting Baba Yaga is even more powerful than I’ve stated doesn’t change anything.
Alternatively, if Golarian has to conform with mundane reality where magic doesn’t exist, Earth will crush Golarian with technology, better organisation and superior numbers.
An apples/oranges comparison where Golarian follows magical rules and Earth follows different mundane rules is irreconcilable. It’s pointless discussing that.
Interestingly, in game systems that specifically cater for low tech medieval fantasy vs modern high tech (for example GURPS) the high tech forces absolutely crush the low tech magical fantasy forces.
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A single mid-level wizard specializing in enchantment could take over just about any country on earth in a fairly short time. Spells like sow though and charm person combined with a few illusions like invisibility will get him access to our leaders. Once he has access to our leaders spells like suggestion, dominate person, and Geas will give him control. Lesser geas is all he probably needs.
None of leaders on earth are going to be high level characters and most will have low will saves. Nor are they likely to have extremely high stats. Obviously they have no magic items to boost stats or saves. Nor are they likely to have feats that boost will saves. +7 is probably about as high of a will save as you are going to see, but most will be about +3 or lower.
Considering how many people fall for the bull s$@@ people spread without magic how bad do you think it will be with magic. Having the stronger army means nothing if you control the leaders of the opposing side.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent who is acting suspiciously is assumed to be a communist spy and is shot dead.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent is walking down a tunnel when he sees a bright light like a lantern in the distance. He calls out, but receives no response, suspecting trouble he goes invisible and is crushed by a freight train.
Or the weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent arrives in an alien city and marvels at the sights and sounds. He flies up to take a better look and sees a convenient structure to perch upon. He alights on the huge metal frame coming into contact with two thick metal cables and is immediately electrocuted.
Cultural Adaptation removes any accent and make you seem to be a native of the culture. Aura of the Unremarkable allows you to be ignored by anyone you are not directly threatening. You can be beating the crap out of someone and the only one who is going to notice is the person you are beating. Tongues allow you to speak any language and can be combined with Cultural Adaptation. Invisibility can also prevent anyone from noticing you. A properly prepared wizard is not going to be noticed.
Divination spells can give you information about earth before you get there. Scrying works at any distance. Contact other planes and similar spells can give you information about earth. Ears of the city can be used to gather information local information. If you have a cleric or inquisitor willing to help you spells like divination or commune can also be used to gather information. A wizard has a lot of ways to gather information before acting.
Even a mid-level wizard is going to have genius level intelligence. They are not going to walk blindly into a situation.
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Even if you are just extrapolating that doesn't mean you expand. We know Golarion has Basilisks, dragons, liches that doesn't mean Earth does have them. We know Earth 1920 in pathfinder is fairly similar to earth in real life in the area's we do see it. For whatever reason earth doesn't have level threats on average and thus isn't likely to have high level adventurers because there is no need for them. The one high level threat I know of (Rasputin) could potentially have destroyed an entire country (russia) and is stopped by people from Golarion not earth implying earth had no one who could stop him. Likewise you don't become a wizard without spells that's an expert. It may have a few ocultists worshiping Cthulu and going mad but that's another class. As for holy water it is made by a spell I think not just a blessing but I don't play clerics. I could just as easily extract earths gods are in a retirement home and don't want to be bothered as no one really worships them any more.
@ Claxon,
I think you are missing the crux of the issue. This is like an apples vs oranges comparison. We are comparing two incompatible universes. The real universe of Earth and the fantastical universe of Pathfinder lore. To reconcile the two you need to convert one to the other.
But you don't though. That's the point I'm making. There's no need for this. It's as easy to compare the real Earth of the 1930s to Golarion as it's presented, as it is to compare to some fictional version of Earth to Golarion.
In fact, it's easier because when using real Earth we have plenty of facts about what can and can't be done and a real understanding of what the people of Earth could accomplish at that time.
We are less certain about what Golarion or some fictional version of Earth could do because we have to fill in blanks.
It doesn't fit with what you want though, so you want to convert one to the other.
I mean if you want to accept some version of mythical Earth as the basis of comparison then it's a foregone conclusion Earth will win, which is why I find it an uninteresting point of comparison.
There are so many different versions. If you ignore all the Earthly "good" super heroes who would probably be involved in stopping an unprovoked invasion of another planet, plenty of those have villains that would likely run roughshod over an unprepared Golarion.
Like I'm just imagining the magically inclined antagonists of the Doctor Strange universe deciding they wanted to take over Golarion. Even high level adventuring types would struggle against that. And unless Golarion's mythical or deity level beings got involved, it's hard to imagine Golarion being very successful in defense.
That's why I ignore it. It's not interesting to posit "what if the most powerful version of evil Earth entities attacked Golarion" because short of mythical beings and gods being involved you wont have the power to defend against it. That's literally why Paizo writes AP because average people don't have a chance against such threats. They need the heroes that we play to save them. It's the same reason why Superman, Dr. Strange, etc all exist.
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Unless Paizo publishes something about earth in its settings most people are going to assume real world earth when talking about earth. As Claxon points out there are so many fictional and gaming setting featuring alternate earths that it becomes pointless discussing it otherwise. If a GM decides the earth in their campaign has magic or advanced technology that is their prerogative.
@ Mysterious Stranger.
Aura of the Unremarkable is not a good option for long term subterfuge. The duration is minutes per level and those effected receive additional will saves after the fact as new information comes to light.
You also appear to have moved the the goal posts. The original contention was that a "single mid-level wizard" could take control of an entire country in a "fairly short time". Now you are saying they need a relatively high level cleric ally and god on their side (to cast Commune successfully). Plus this hypothetical wizard needs to be a genius and conduct research and planning so you can forget about a "fairly short time".
In addition, the plan is based on the assumption that prominent people of Earth are 1st level nobodies with no magic and low will saves, even though Baba Yaga is a strong counterexample to that. The plan also does not take into account how modern governments actually work. It seems predicated on the notion that if you can control the President or Prime Minister of a country you can do whatever you want.
I mean if you want to accept some version of mythical Earth as the basis of comparison then it's a foregone conclusion Earth will win...
Exactly.
Any remotely reasonable comparison shows Earth utterly crushing Golarian. The only way Golarian can conceivably win is to make a huge list of assumptions in favour of Golarian over Earth, some of which are counter to known lore on the topic.
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When compared to Golarion, a larger part of Earth's population (at least in the advanced nations) would be Experts or Aristocrats instead of Commoners, both classes with a good Will save. Probably Earth will have its specific NPC classes, an advanced version of the Gunslinger with specific Archetypes, spell-less Bards, Rangers, Paladins, and a modernized version of the Cavalier with plenty of Archetypes. Alchemists will be at home on Earth.
A Pulp Fiction Earth (the most probable setting for Ehart in the Golarion universe) would have Technomancers that use Tesla guns and invent Pulp Fiction technical gizmos, Mesmerists, and Spiritists on par with the Occult book classes, Fistcuff fighters capable of amazing feats, Martial Artists, Detectives more intelligent and wise than most wizards, Vigilantes, and so on.
People like Houdini would effectively use magical powers instead of trickery and sleight of hands.
P.s.: and specific classes that have no equivalents in Golarion, like the Aircraft Pilot, Scientists, and so on.
When compared to Golarion, a larger part of Earth's population (at least in the advanced nations) would be Experts or Aristocrats instead of Commoners, both classes with a good Will save. Probably Earth will have its specific NPC classes, an advanced version of the Gunslinger with specific Archetypes, spell-less Bards, Rangers, Paladins, and a modernized version of the Cavalier with plenty of Archetypes. Alchemists will be at home on Earth.
A Pulp Fiction Earth (the most probable setting for Ehart in the Golarion universe) would have Technomancers that use Tesla guns and invent Pulp Fiction technical gizmos, Mesmerists, and Spiritists on par with the Occult book classes, Fistcuff fighters capable of amazing feats, Martial Artists, Detectives more intelligent and wise than most wizards, Vigilantes, and so on.
People like Houdini would effectively use magical powers instead of trickery and sleight of hands.
P.s.: and specific classes that have no equivalents in Golarion, like the Aircraft Pilot, Scientists, and so on.
I trained as a Chemist. When still studying at University I used to joke that I just wanted to know how to make drugs and bombs. It's funny to think that I could potentially be an Alchemist in the Pathfinder universe.
The thing about Pathfinder is that the opposition automatically levels to be a challenge. And since only high level characters can travel to Earth (ROW and SA), Earth has high level threat where ever PCs have been. Remember Erik Zann is a 16th lvl Bard.
In Golarion, knowledge of Earth should only be available from a mythos tome which somehow made its way there, from a deity (and why would they care to discuss what is surely one of millions of other worlds you have never heard of) or from the heroes of ROW, who do seem to be spreading tech rather quickly.
Not that it's canon, but in our expanded Strange Aeons campaign the party revisited a very high level pulp European capital. A certain Irma Vemp convinced the party to take her back with them. They dropped her off in Absalom. They didn't know it but she was vampire 20th level rogue Mythic tier 2. Poor Absalom.
The thing about Pathfinder is that the opposition automatically levels to be a challenge. And since only high level characters can travel to Earth (ROW and SA), Earth has high level threat where ever PCs have been. Remember Erik Zann is a 16th lvl Bard.
In Golarion, knowledge of Earth should only be available from a mythos tome which somehow made its way there, from a deity (and why would they care to discuss what is surely one of millions of other worlds you have never heard of) or from the heroes of ROW, who do seem to be spreading tech rather quickly.
Not that it's canon, but in our expanded Strange Aeons campaign the party revisited a very high level pulp European capital. A certain Irma Vemp convinced the party to take her back with them. They dropped her off in Absalom. They didn't know it but she was vampire 20th level rogue Mythic tier 2. Poor Absalom.
It might not be canon, but surely rule of cool applies. Interesting twist making Irma Vep an actual vampire.
I mean if you want to accept some version of mythical Earth as the basis of comparison then it's a foregone conclusion Earth will win...Exactly.
Any remotely reasonable comparison shows Earth utterly crushing Golarian. The only way Golarian can conceivably win is to make a huge list of assumptions in favour of Golarian over Earth, some of which are counter to known lore on the topic.
Sorry, but you can't say "remotely reasonable".
I would actually argue using real Earth is the most reasonable. Because it's the only version of Earth that we should be able to mostly agree on what it consists of.
Also there are so many versions of mythical Earth that you can't even say that there is even one agreeable version. Because there are also "mythical" settings that would be lower power than Golarion. But if your cherry picking from your options of course you can choose one more powerful.
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Based on what I know (which is not much) he seems like a charisma based rogue with the firearm proficiency talent. A smooth talker and a smuggler, but could wield a gun if needed.Just a question:
"What level of gun-toting Rogue was Al Capone?"
From what I have read, during a banquet with the heads of his gang, he killed one of them with a baseball bat for being unloyal. But maybe it is a legend.
Regardless we cannot use IRL Earth in full because we know that there is magic in Golarion Earth.
Why? Why should we use the version of Earth in published Golarion lore, when we don't know very much about it?
And why use the version over any other theoretical version of Earth?
Based on what I know (which is not much) he seems like a charisma based rogue with the firearm proficiency talent. A smooth talker and a smuggler, but could wield a gun if needed.Just a question:
"What level of gun-toting Rogue was Al Capone?"
Can't be, Al was a successful dude and PF1 Rogue is a comically bad class. He even wouldn't be able to backstab people in a dark alley because how PF1 sneak attack works.
@ Mysterious Stranger.
Aura of the Unremarkable is not a good option for long term subterfuge. The duration is minutes per level and those effected receive additional will saves after the fact as new information comes to light.
You also appear to have moved the the goal posts. The original contention was that a "single mid-level wizard" could take control of an entire country in a "fairly short time". Now you are saying they need a relatively high level cleric ally and god on their side (to cast Commune successfully). Plus this hypothetical wizard needs to be a genius and conduct research and planning so you can forget about a "fairly short time".
In addition, the plan is based on the assumption that prominent people of Earth are 1st level nobodies with no magic and low will saves, even though Baba Yaga is a strong counterexample to that. The plan also does not take into account how modern governments actually work. It seems predicated on the notion that if you can control the President or Prime Minister of a country you can do whatever you want.
The Aura of the Unremarkable was a direct counter to your weirdly dress man with a foreign accent statement. As to its duration at 12th level it last for 2 hours, that can be doubled to 4 hours with extend spell. That should be enough time to allow the wizard to accomplish what he needs to. If he needs longer, he can simply cast the spell again. The 12th level wizard has enough spell slots to keep this up for the amount of time he will be active. He can also do the same thing with invisibility at the same time. Throw in a few spells like Gaseous form and Teleport and the wizard can go anywhere he wants with little to no chance of being discovered or stopped.
As was pointed out to me by @Temperans the Paizo version of earth “is a planet in a galaxy far from Golarion, yet similar in many ways. Magic was once as prevalent on Earth as it is on Golarion, but as time wore on magic and mysticism were replaced by science and technology, and now magical creatures have all but disappeared from the world and the existence of the supernatural is known to only a few mystics.”. That makes it pretty clear that there is not a lot of magic earth anymore. I doubt that any leader is going to have access to magic items.
Even without access to a cleric the wizard still has some decent divination spells. Scrying and clairvoyance can allow them to see what their opponents are doing. There are lots of spells that allow them to read minds. They can alter memories to cover up their activities, so people don’t even realize they have ever seen the wizard. As I pointed out earlier the well-prepared wizard is going to be able to move around without interference so can also gather information himself fairly easily. Ears of the City means the 12th level wizard can spend 12rounds to gather as much information as someone else does in 12d4 hours per casting. In one week, a wizard could gather almost all available information on the local area that a team of spies could gather in a year.
The wizard is not going to be the “weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent”. A 12th level wizard will be a genius because they need to be in order to cast their higher-level spells. They will also be investing in magic items to boost their INT. Assume a NPC stat array, so the wizard starts with a 15 INT and bumps that to 17 with racial adjustment. 12th level gives him 3 bonuses to boost that to 20, and a headband of +2 puts that to 22. Divination spells are going to mean the wizard is not going into the situation blind.
You would also be targeting more than just government officials. Modern governments are for the most part controlled by special interests. Control those interests and you can get the government to do what you want. Business and religious leaders are just as important as elected officials. The vast majority of people on earth will usually have no more than a +3 Will save. A legendary leader like Abraham Lincoln might have a +11, but I don’t think that any of the current world leaders are in that category. A good leader will probably have at most +7 will save.
Using the 12th level wizard, I mentioned above he will have a base DC of 16 + level of the spell for his spell. Spell focus and greater spell focus puts that to 18 + level of the spell. So, the DC of his 1st level enchantment spells will be 19 and 24 for his highest. He can memorize more than a single copy of the control spell to allow him to have a second chance in the unlikely event his target makes his initial save.
This will take some time and planning, but that is what a wizard is supposed to do. In Golorian this type of thing comes as no surprise, so steps are taken to prevent it. On Earth no one takes magic seriously except some crackpots so counter measures are not in place.
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The wizard is not going to be the “weirdly dressed man with the foreign accent”. A 12th level wizard will be a genius because they need to be in order to cast their higher-level spells. They will also be investing in magic items to boost their INT. Assume a NPC stat array, so the wizard starts with a 15 INT and bumps that to 17 with racial adjustment. 12th level gives him 3 bonuses to boost that to 20, and a headband of +2 puts that to 22. Divination spells are going to mean the wizard is not going into the situation blind.
You seem to be a genius means that someone has common sense, knows how to meld into a crowd, knows how to interact with people, and is wise. Can you give us some examples of that?
Geniuses often are more arrogant, forgetful, or socially inept, than common people.PCs wizards often have average wisdom and average to low charisma.
A guy like that often makes intricate plans that rarely survive contact with the "enemy".
"Ears of the city": your wizard speaks English, Russian, Hindi, or whatever is the local language? You need to be able to communicate to use diplomacy.
You continue to say that Earth people will saves will be low, but not why you think so. Are you aware that Wisdom increases with age? The "average" leader will be in his forties or behind.
POLKOVNIK LAVRENTI - Male variant dullahan gunslinger 7
A Cossack from the Tzar guards, after death.
RUSSIAN RIFLE TROOP CR 11
XP 12,800
LN Medium humanoid (human, troop)
Init +3; Senses Perception +23
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 20 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +10 natural)
hp 152 (16d8+80)
Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +8
Defensive Abilities gas masks, troop traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee troop +20 (4d6+8)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks fusillade (DC 23), grenade volley (DC 21)
TACTICS
During Combat These troops are veterans of the Great War, and even when faced with fantastic foes (such as armored, sword-wielding, or spellcasting PCs), these hardened soldiers maintain a steely resolve, concentrating their rifle fusillades on flying opponents or supernatural threats, or readying actions to launch grenade volleys at charging opponents. In the absence of armor, troops seek any scrap of cover they can earn—particularly trenches, fortifications, and walls.
Morale A troop disperses when reduced to 0 hit points or fewer.STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 34
Feats Ability Focus (fusillade), Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great
Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus
(Stealth), Toughness
Skills Climb +15, Craft (firearms) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +1,
Perception +23, Profession (soldier) +6, Stealth +10, Survival +8
Languages Russian
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Fusillade (Ex) Rifle troops can fire a fusillade of rifle bullets as
a standard action. This attack takes the form of up to four
lines with a range of 200 feet. These lines can start from the corner of any square in the troop’s space. All creatures in one of these lines’ areas of effect take 6d10+6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage (Reflex DC 23 for half).
The save DC is Dexterity-based, and includes the bonus from
the troop’s Ability Focus feat.
Gas Masks (Ex) The soldiers of a rifle troop are all equipped with gas masks. This makes the troop immune to inhaled poisons and other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing, and grants it a +2 bonus on saving throws against magical cloud or gas attacks.
Grenade Volley (Ex) Rifle troops are equipped with grenades. As a move action, a rifle troop can target a single square up to 60 feet away with a volley of fragmentation grenades. A volley deals 12d6 points of piercing and slashing damage in a 30-foot-radius burst (Reflex DC 21 for half). The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Immune to spell that target a specific number of creatures, i.e. most spells that mess with the mind.
RUSSIAN SOLDIER CR 5
Human fighter (trench fighter) 6 (see page 67)
A veteran soldier, not even an elite, is a 5th level NPC.
Viktor Miloslav (LN human expert 10)
A scientist.
From what I see, Earth people don't seems low leveled.
Comprehend Languages and Tongues take care of the language barriers. Both last 10 minutes per level and can be made permanent. So, yes the wizard will speak English, Russian, Hindu and any other language he needs to.
Most leaders are going to have higher CHA than WIS. Middle age gives a +1 bonus to WIS, so is not going to raise the leaders WIS that high. Old will give them a +2 to WIS, which raises the will save by +1. Most leaders will probably be some sort of rogue which does not have good will saves. A 9th level rogue with a 16 WIS has a +6 Will save, If the leader has a class with a good will save it still only goes to +9 at 9th level.
Looking at our current leaders is why I think most people on earth are not going to be high level. Do you really think that Donald Trump or Joe Biden are 20th level characters? Using the stat block for a troop proves nothing about the individual character. As to the other characters they will be higher level than normal because they were just in a war. Surviving a war like that is going to create a group of experienced characters who are higher than normal level. Outside of Ukraine earth has not seen a conflict in a large enough scale to create many such characters.
For the most part the enchantment focused wizard is going to be able to control most of his targets. Sure, some will make their saves, but most will not. In a world were magic is accepted as fact a government will have some ways to counter it, but earth for the most part does not believe in magic so will not take counter measures.
Looking at our current leaders is why I think most people on earth are not going to be high level. Do you really think that Donald Trump or Joe Biden are 20th level characters?
Well either they obey the laws of the real world where character classes don’t exist. In which case the question is meaningless. Or, they are converted to Pathfinder rules where they may well be 20th level with high charisma and the leadership feat. Donald Trump in particular has such a strong following, people who are happy to donate their life savings, travel across the country just to hear him speak, and even commit serious crimes for him. That indicates a high level character to me.
Also, in regards to your other post. Aura of the Unremarkable has a minute per level duration, not 10 minutes per level. It is not suitable for long term subterfuge.
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So, to sum it up: a Schroedingen wizard who knows every spell, has always the right spells available, and can spend them freely while still having the needed combat spells available, will always win.
I suppose you are part of the group that says that "using magic is evident" is wrong, and that magic use is easy to hide.
Considering the number of people that Trump can influence at the same time, yes, he is high level.
"Outside of Ukraine earth has not seen a conflict in a large enough scale to create many such characters." Afghanistan? Israel and the Near East, with a low-level war going on for 70 years? Mass genocide in Africa? Spy games that extend to all the world?
Most NPC in Golarion are and haven't been in big or little wars, nor hunt monsters, but they still have levels, sometimes even high levels.
Working your job for forty generates experience.
Legal enforcement and crime will be some of the fast tracks, but well-drilled armies, air forces, and navy will train people to higher levels.
Same thing for universities and specialist schools.
Stuff that can generate high-level NPCs:
- scientific research;
- worldwide trading;
- big engineering projects;
- organized armies and firms with hundreds of thousands of people
- athletic world competitions;
- regular state and nation wide competition to get government positions.
All that stuff will generate goal completion xp.
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If Earth exists in the same reality as Golarion and the same laws of 'magical physics' therefore apply, why aren't there people who can use magic on Earth? I can see three scenarios:
1. The ability to use magic is in some way genetic, even for wizards, and no one on Earth has the magic gene any more, but anyone who can cast magic can do so at full effect. This seems to be Mysterious Stranger's assumption.
2. There are people on earth who can use magic, but they are rare, and for various reasons (historic persecution, not wanting to become government pawns) hide from general society so most people don't realise they exist. In that situation, if a wizard from another world turned up and started causing political trouble they might get involved out of self preservation.
3. There is something about Earth which means that magic doesn't work here, even though people understand the concept and try to cast spells - maybe universal belief in technology generates anti-magic fields, maybe there's something in the air that leaches the magic out of people. This magic dampening effect will affect the Golarion wizard as well. It might not happen immediately, but the longer they stay here the harder it becomes to use magic.
Personally, were I creating an Earth/Golarion crossover campaign I would go with option 2 because it's the most interesting. Consider this scenario: Mr 17th level wizard comes to Earth having finished an AP and decides to take over the US government. He's just succeeded in phase 1 of his plan and has two dominated senators on the payroll when there's a knock at the door from a tall gentlemen who introduces himself as Mr Dresden, wanting a word about breaking the rules.
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It can be:
There is magic on Earth, but the different governments and powerful people monopolized it. Most successful politicians are spellcasters, men of faith have divine powers, star athletes have body-enhancing classes, great artists are bards or something similar, and so on.
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To point it out, in RL Earth we have people who have survived falls from extreme heights:
No Parachute The Highest Falls Pople survived[/url]
Nicholas Alkemade suffered a sprained leg from a fall of 18,000 ft. Seems a high-level character taking 20d6 of damage, né?
And people who survived lots of wounds:
Roy Benavidez received 37 different bullet, bayonet, and shrapnel wounds and survived.
Even assuming an average of 1d4 of damage for each wound, it is more than 90 points of damage, like a 10th level fighter with a constitution of 16+.
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If Earth exists in the same reality as Golarion and the same laws of 'magical physics' therefore apply, why aren't there people who can use magic on Earth? I can see three scenarios:
1. The ability to use magic is in some way genetic, even for wizards, and no one on Earth has the magic gene any more, but anyone who can cast magic can do so at full effect. This seems to be Mysterious Stranger's assumption.
2. There are people on earth who can use magic, but they are rare, and for various reasons (historic persecution, not wanting to become government pawns) hide from general society so most people don't realise they exist. In that situation, if a wizard from another world turned up and started causing political trouble they might get involved out of self preservation.
3. There is something about Earth which means that magic doesn't work here, even though people understand the concept and try to cast spells - maybe universal belief in technology generates anti-magic fields, maybe there's something in the air that leaches the magic out of people. This magic dampening effect will affect the Golarion wizard as well. It might not happen immediately, but the longer they stay here the harder it becomes to use magic.
Personally, were I creating an Earth/Golarion crossover campaign I would go with option 2 because it's the most interesting. Consider this scenario: Mr 17th level wizard comes to Earth having finished an AP and decides to take over the US government. He's just succeeded in phase 1 of his plan and has two dominated senators on the payroll when there's a knock at the door from a tall gentlemen who introduces himself as Mr Dresden, wanting a word about breaking the rules.
Sorry was away for work and couldn't post.
I think 1 is the most likely myself. We can rule out 3 because there are AP's and modules that go to earth and there is no mention of reduced or inhibited spellcasting. 2 also seems unlikely because again we have high level opponents in those modules/aps who are opposed by people from Golarion not earth. Obviously you could have some its how the villains got there after all but earth really does seem very low magic/low threat. So any actual spellcasters running around earth in the 1920's are going to be almost non-existent and low level. Since as posted above most magical beings have left earth.
There is also the Worldscape connection.
It's part of the comics so kind of up to you if it's actually part of Golarion or not but from what I remember it was either Nex or the other one, built this pocket dimension that links Golarion, Earth and Barsoom. The original goal was to make a Summoning storage of Heroes from all three worlds (Cast "Summon Conan" on his foes) but since the creator disappeared it kind of went a little wonky and has just been pulling random people into it from all three worlds.