The new area weapons don't use weapon proficiency at all


Field Test Discussion


As implemented in the current field test, the area fire and automatic fire attacks on the field test's weapons impose a Reflex save based on class DC, rather than a DC based on weapon proficiency. Based on developer commentary, this is to avoid Pathfinder 2e classes with legendary weapon proficiency like the Fighter or Gunslinger having excessively good at-will AoE damage. This is understandable, given that those classes are meant to specialize in single-target damage through weapons rather than AoE damage, and giving those classes good at-will AoE through cross-pollination with SF2e's weapons would be disruptive to balance. However, I feel the current implementation creates a few problems:

* As per the title, AoE weapon attacks don't at all scale with weapon proficiency, which is misleading and breaks from the way weapon strikes typically work.
* With automatic weapons specifically, it means their single-target Strikes and AoE automatic fire scale completely differently and use entirely different modifiers, which is not intuitive. This is particularly visible on the Soldier, who's built to have good AoE but can easily have a terrible modifier when attempting a single-target attack with Primary Target.
* Because AoE weapons don't rely on weapon proficiency, there is no point to labelling these weapons simple, martial, or even advanced weapons, because a character can access and use these weapons equally well based on their class DC, even if they're untrained in all of these weapon categories.
* Because these AoE attacks rely on class DC, which has no inherent connection to weapons or any specific game mechanic besides maybe weapon crit specializations and a few class feats, this creates an implication where any class with a high class DC is going to also be the most accurate with these weapons, which may create future issues if a class needs a high class DC to excel at any kind of single-target specialization.
* Because these weapons scale with class DC and work with Pathfinder classes, this means the class with the most accurate rotolaser AoE so far is the Kineticist, a class that makes little to no use of weapons.

Now, to be clear: these weapons aren't hugely disruptive to the current state of balance, because the Kineticist being good at AoE isn't anything new. However, I feel the current implementation of these AoE attacks is clunky, unintuitive, and not terribly cohesive with the way PF2e handles weapons and weapon proficiency. Using class DC in particular creates weird thematic outliers like the Kineticist and I feel will limit the design of future classes with high class DCs, as they will have to account for their accuracy with AoE weapons regardless of how good they're actually meant to be with those weapons.

Designing AoE weapons in a system where weapons so far have largely been assumed to specialize in single-target damage is tough, and compatibility with Pathfinder means the developers have to work with existing precedents and make sure the new toys we get from Starfinder don't break the ones we've already got. Bypassing the system's own mechanics through this kind of workaround, however, I don't think is the answer. I can't suggest anything concrete, but I would say AoE weapon mechanics ought to change in the following ways:

* If these things are going to be weapons, then a character should be at least trained in the relevant AoE weapon to be able to use it properly. This is non-negotiable in my opinion, and just how weapons normally work in this system.
* Striking with an automatic weapon and using that weapon's automatic fire ought to use the same modifiers, so that a character using their Dex to shoot doesn't suddenly find themselves shooting with their Con or Charisma.
* As the designated AoE weapons specialist, the Soldier should still make the best use of these weapons regardless of how they change. The Gunslinger is a good example of how to do this in my opinion, because firearms aren't great on their own, but the Gunslinger gets to use them very well thanks to their class features. Making AoE weapons not great on any other class (including the Kineticist), but having the Soldier make those weapons truly sing, I think would be the more sound approach than divorcing weapons from weapon proficiency entirely and risking weird interactions further down the line.

And that's about my 2 cents for AoE weapons thus far. Love that we're getting them, hate how their AoE is currently implemented.


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I completely agree and I would make a few suggestions:

Soldier Class Feature:
Unwieldy and Area Weapons: You use your body to stabilize these weapons before making an attack. You may use your Constitution modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifiers.

Heavy weapon specialist:
This could work like a rogue sneak attack but with Unwieldy and Area weapons, where you would add a d6 to the damage you do with Unwieldy or Area Weapons (only when using area, not a normal shot).

Soldier Feat: 2A, Burst Fire, when using automatic weapons this allows you to make 3 ranged strikes against a single target using your gun, each attack will be made with a penalty.

Regarding SF1e to SF2e, I don't see a problem with using the same rules:

Automatic:
When you make a full attack with a weapon in automatic Mode, you can attack in a cone with a range of half the weapon’s range increment. This uses all the weapon’s remaining ammunition. Roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you. Attacks made with a weapon in automatic Mode can’t score critical hits. Roll damage only once, and apply it to all targets struck. Each attack against an individual creature in the cone uses up the same amount of ammunition or charges as taking two shots, and once you no longer have enough ammunition to attack another target, you stop making attacks.

Blast:
For each attack you make with a weapon with the blast special property, roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you. Each attack takes a –2 penalty in addition to other penalties, such as the penalty to all attacks during a full attack. Roll damage only once for all targets. If you roll one or more critical hits, roll the extra critical damage only once (or any other special effects on a critical hit that require you to roll) and apply it to each creature against which you score a critical hit. You can’t avoid shooting at allies in the cone, nor can you shoot any creature more than once.

Line works almost like Blast and Automatic

For Explode I they should really use REF but the DC would be specified by the weapon, Soldiers might have feats to increase this DC, and some weapon upgrades might also increase the DC.

Also for gaming purposes, I would also give Automatic weapons as an Agile trait.


Teridax wrote:

* Because these AoE attacks rely on class DC, which has no inherent connection to weapons or any specific game mechanic besides maybe weapon crit specializations and a few class feats, this creates an implication where any class with a high class DC is going to also be the most accurate with these weapons, which may create future issues if a class needs a high class DC to excel at any kind of single-target specialization.

* Because these weapons scale with class DC and work with Pathfinder classes, this means the class with the most accurate rotolaser AoE so far is the Kineticist, a class that makes little to no use of weapons.

It gets even worse than that.

To an extent, Kineticist is supposed to be really good with AoE effects. They usually do it through magic, but it wouldn't unbalance the system.

What does cause problems is that pure spellcasting classes don't get any proficiency in Class DC at all. So Sorcerer, Wizard, Witch, Oracle, ... couldn't hit the broad side of a Vermelith with a scattergun.

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