Apparently Mystics were mentioned as being Divine/Primal casters in the current build of PF2e (with I'd assume Connection determining which). I can see Technomancer being an Arcane caster, but I don't feel like Witchwarper or Precog naturally fit into having any of the traditions.
How do people think the difference classes might be handled when it comes to their spellcasting traditions/lists?
Witchwarper I can very easily see being Occult.
Precog I would say Arcane or Arcane/Occult.
If I were to assign the four spell lists from PF2E to the four casters in SF one to one I think I would do something like:
Arcane: Technomancer. The most studious/researchy of the casters.
Divine: Mystic. Makes sense.
Occult: Precog. Occult kind of fits in with the psychic time stuff.
Primal: Witchwarper. Mostly because this is the last pair to match up, but to be fair witchwarper does have infinite worlds where you can manifest hazards from other worlds, so it's a bit of a stretch but there you go.
Though if I wasns't trying to force a 1 to 1 match here, I'd probably give Witchwarper occult.
Though unless Starfinder 2E ends up having a lot more caster classes than 1E, which started with two and has only worked its way up to 4, I feel like they could easily just stick to each caster having its own spell list again.
Witchwarper I can very easily see being Occult.
Precog I would say Arcane or Arcane/Occult.
I struggle to see Witchwarper as occult. Occult spell list is full of mental and spiritual things, while witchwarper is about changing the material reality around you.
I struggle to see Witchwarper as occult. Occult spell list is full of mental and spiritual things, while witchwarper is about changing the material reality around you.Witchwarper I can very easily see being Occult.
Precog I would say Arcane or Arcane/Occult.
Yeah, Occult is a good fit for reality warping thematically, look at the current Witchwarper spell list, and think on what spells go to what schools.
Yeah, Occult is a good fit for reality warping thematically, look at the current Witchwarper spell list, and think on what spells go to what schools.
I'd say only a minority of their spells align with an occult tradition. Majority arcane, with a mix of occult and primal is how I'd describe their Starfinder spells.
Yeah same. Their spell list is full of elemental magic, aoe, and a bit of healing.
The flavor is a stretch for primal, but the spell list fits.
Reflavor it to draw on pure elemental planes, like if the kineticist pulled parts of the elemental planes into our reality rather than just energy, and I could see it as primal
Reading the Witchwarper writeup I'm still leaning into them being Occult, I don't want them to be reflavored to be elementalists and I don't think fans of the class would prefer that either.
Most people believe that reality is limited to their physical surroundings. You know the truth: that everything around you is merely a thin veil draped across the infinite tapestry of existence. Your reality is a palimpsest, with all possible worlds and all alternate existences at your disposal. Through your magic and force of personality, you can peer into these time lines and pull from them as you see fit, using their dimensional echoes to twist and reshape your own world.
I’m a fan of the class, so don’t presume to speak for me.
With all due respect I’m side eying that claim when you want their lore and flavor to be completely changed.
I don't think the occult spell list has enough witchwarper spells to suffice, but also really really wouldn't want to ditch the core flavour of the class.
With all due respect I’m side eying that claim when you want their lore and flavor to be completely changed.
Actually I don’t.
But believe whatever you’d like.
With all due respect I’m side eying that claim when you want their lore and flavor to be completely changed.Actually I don’t.
But believe whatever you’d like.
The flavor is a stretch for primal, but the spell list fits.
Reflavor it to draw on pure elemental planes, like if the kineticist pulled parts of the elemental planes into our reality rather than just energy, and I could see it as primal
I don't think the occult spell list has enough witchwarper spells to suffice, but also really really wouldn't want to ditch the core flavour of the class.
*nods*
That is easily fixed by adding Withwarper spells to the Occult list.
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*nods*
That is easily fixed by adding Withwarper spells to the Occult list.
That would mean Bards and other Occult casters would be getting access to loads of spells about altering the battlefield and elemental effects. Paizo has to consider the consequences of any additions both ways.
With all due respect I’m side eying that claim when you want their lore and flavor to be completely changed.Actually I don’t.
But believe whatever you’d like.
The flavor is a stretch for primal, but the spell list fits.
Reflavor it to draw on pure elemental planes, like if the kineticist pulled parts of the elemental planes into our reality rather than just energy, and I could see it as primal
Do you actually think that’s evidence that I want the flavor changed? Really?
Wow, okay.
That would mean Bards and other Occult casters would be getting access to loads of spells about altering the battlefield and elemental effects. Paizo has to consider the consequences of any additions both ways.*nods*
That is easily fixed by adding Withwarper spells to the Occult list.
Something to keep in mind, they're probably not gonna copy the lists exactly into whatever Tradition(s) the classes get. Be prepared to lose certain spells.
Don't look at it from "what list can we cram all these spells into", cause that's not how it's gonna be set up. Also there's the whole Essences thing...
With all due respect I’m side eying that claim when you want their lore and flavor to be completely changed.Actually I don’t.
But believe whatever you’d like.
The flavor is a stretch for primal, but the spell list fits.
Reflavor it to draw on pure elemental planes, like if the kineticist pulled parts of the elemental planes into our reality rather than just energy, and I could see it as primal
Do you actually think that’s evidence that I want the flavor changed? Really?
Wow, okay.
I'm sorry what else is it suppose to mean?
Something to keep in mind, they're probably not gonna copy the lists exactly into whatever Tradition(s) the classes get. Be prepared to lose certain spells.
Don't look at it from "what list can we cram all these spells into", cause that's not how it's gonna be set up. Also there's the whole Essences thing...
It's not certain spells I'm worried about, but the Style of spells they cast. Not every spell of a tradition is going to vibe with all classes of the tradition, but if you lose the core types of magic the class is about why are you using that tradition for it?
As an example if the primal tradition didn't exist, it wouldn't feel right to just have druids have the Divine Tradition's list just because a small portion of the spells align between the concept & the class. You'd still have the dissonance of the list not really meshing with the list.
Alternatively, we can look at starfinder 1e itself. Where if you wanted to play a xenodruid character, the mystic spell list was very immensely limiting for such a concept and didn't mesh well. Which would have greatly benefited from a more 2e model.
I'd always taken Mystics to be Divine/Occult, with the Xenowarden stuff feeling like a weird exception. Mystics got a lot more mental stuff on their list than anything that touched on physical reality. I'd be mildly bummed to lose the psychic vibes from the class, and much more put out if we don't get them back elsewhere.
Reading the Witchwarper writeup I'm still leaning into them being Occult, I don't want them to be reflavored to be elementalists and I don't think fans of the class would prefer that either.
Most people believe that reality is limited to their physical surroundings. You know the truth: that everything around you is merely a thin veil draped across the infinite tapestry of existence. Your reality is a palimpsest, with all possible worlds and all alternate existences at your disposal. Through your magic and force of personality, you can peer into these time lines and pull from them as you see fit, using their dimensional echoes to twist and reshape your own world.
I think your opinion on the class you skimmed a couple of minutes ago is very helpful to summarize what people who have played it for years think and I’m glad you offered it.
In no way should they contribute to psuedoscientific nonsense spewed about quantum mechanics and many worlds interpretations by associating Witchwarpers with 'Occult'. One example of this is the old movie "what the Bleep do We Know?"
Huh?
I think your opinion on the class you skimmed a couple of minutes ago is very helpful to summarize what people who have played it for years think and I’m glad you offered it.Reading the Witchwarper writeup I'm still leaning into them being Occult, I don't want them to be reflavored to be elementalists and I don't think fans of the class would prefer that either.
Most people believe that reality is limited to their physical surroundings. You know the truth: that everything around you is merely a thin veil draped across the infinite tapestry of existence. Your reality is a palimpsest, with all possible worlds and all alternate existences at your disposal. Through your magic and force of personality, you can peer into these time lines and pull from them as you see fit, using their dimensional echoes to twist and reshape your own world.
Okiedokie.
Don’t forget Zemir’s Meet the Iconic blog story.
Also I’m not the one suggesting completely changing a class’s flavor and aesthetic into something completely different.
I don’t think there’s an easy or obvious answer to the witchwarper.
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I'd like to point out that they're writing up and adding a whole bunch of spells to SF2. There are going to be a lot of techy spells that need to be added, as well as "pseudoscience" ones that the Witchwarper and Precog will need.
These don't need to be balanced on the assumption that it will automatically port into PF2, because they will be SF2 content, all of which is Rare or Unique for PF2 characters.
I don’t think there’s an easy or obvious answer to the witchwarper.
Eh, on additional thought Arcane is the obvious answer. Their SF1 list is 60% physical blasts, walls, environmental manipulation, or other crowd control, 25% probability manipulation and other weird stuff, and 15% mental manipulation (charm, suggestion, hold, confusion).
Well I would specifically name the chief promoter, but the Paizo moderation policies seem to frown on that type of clarity. But as googling the movie title would show they have enough clout to get a movie made with at least 2 relatively famous actors. Like most pseudoscience the goal is to sell something in this case rationalizing informal language descriptions of the Uncertainty Principle to justify all manner of new Age hocus pocus. As we have seen with other types of pseudoscience they fester for years.In no way should they contribute to psuedoscientific nonsense spewed about quantum mechanics and many worlds interpretations by associating Witchwarpers with 'Occult'. One example of this is the old movie "what the Bleep do We Know?"Huh?
I legitimately have no idea what you’re talking about or what it has to do with Occult magic in a fantasy game.
letthemfight.jpeg
That’s not something you fight that’s something you discreetly and quickly walk to to other side of the street from.
One thing I liked about the technomamcer was how many spells were flavored out-of-the-box and creating machines as devices with the spells. So them simply getting the arcane list feels like we might be missing something. A unique four traditions would have been fun, but I'm sure there are issues with that
One thing I liked about the technomamcer was how many spells were flavored out-of-the-box and creating machines as devices with the spells. So them simply getting the arcane list feels like we might be missing something. A unique four traditions would have been fun, but I'm sure there are issues with that
I think those super niche/thematic spells will fall under Focus Spells.
I imagine arcane, primal, occult, and divine will be the spell lists in SF2, but they will not automatically incorporate all existing PF2 spells and will instead publish their own "futuristic" spells catered to match the flavor of the classes that use those spell lists in SF2.
Many PF2 spells beyond the obvious staples (Fireball, Dispel Magic) would be archaic/tacky spell formula you might find on backward planets or used by weirdos, but not modern spellcasters. They're uncommon/rare. Maybe an appendix suggests some to make easier access.
I would also expect occult to not even be published in the SF2 CRB if Mystic is using some combo of primal/divine and the other caster if any (probably techno, maybe witchwarper) will probably use arcane. Occult can be held for publishing a later class (precog!) that would match it better.
I imagine arcane, primal, occult, and divine will be the spell lists in SF2, but they will not automatically incorporate all existing PF2 spells and will instead publish their own "futuristic" spells catered to match the flavor of the classes that use those spell lists in SF2.
Many PF2 spells beyond the obvious staples (Fireball, Dispel Magic) would be archaic/tacky spell formula you might find on backward planets or used by weirdos, but not modern spellcasters. They're uncommon/rare. Maybe an appendix suggests some to make easier access.
I would also expect occult to not even be published in the SF2 CRB if Mystic is using some combo of primal/divine and the other caster if any (probably techno, maybe witchwarper) will probably use arcane. Occult can be held for publishing a later class (precog!) that would match it better.
I hope you're right about unique versions of the four spell lists. Limiting the cool technological spells to just focus spells for technomancer would be very disheartening
I hope they ditch the tying of different 'schools' like Arcane/Occult/Primal/Divine and instead turn it into "Mystic/Witchwarper/Precog/Technomancer -- pick spells you want that fit your character and then add your own 'flavor' to them."
ie, a Mystic's Mind Thrust may be something spiritually looking, but a Precog gives someone a migraine as they try to think of all their possible pasts, Technomancer shoots raw nanites into someone's brain to reprogram them briefly,etc.
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I hope they ditch the tying of different 'schools' like Arcane/Occult/Primal/Divine and instead turn it into "Mystic/Witchwarper/Precog/Technomancer -- pick spells you want that fit your character and then add your own 'flavor' to them."ie, a Mystic's Mind Thrust may be something spiritually looking, but a Precog gives someone a migraine as they try to think of all their possible pasts, Technomancer shoots raw nanites into someone's brain to reprogram them briefly,etc.
They’re not doing away with Traditions.
One thing I liked about the technomamcer was how many spells were flavored out-of-the-box and creating machines as devices with the spells. So them simply getting the arcane list feels like we might be missing something. A unique four traditions would have been fun, but I'm sure there are issues with that
There is no reason to assume that Starfinder wont have starfinder-y spells. Using the arcane list doesn't mean they're limited to copy paste spells from PF, it just means their spells would be the sort of things that would end up on the arcane list and their spells would have the arcane trait.
I'd like to point out that they're writing up and adding a whole bunch of spells to SF2. There are going to be a lot of techy spells that need to be added, as well as "pseudoscience" ones that the Witchwarper and Precog will need.
These don't need to be balanced on the assumption that it will automatically port into PF2, because they will be SF2 content, all of which is Rare or Unique for PF2 characters.
They are definitely going to be adding new spells of course.
But 100% compatability is the unchanging goal of SF2e, that is a fact. We know that if a spell is added to the game in SF that it's practically in PF and vice versa.
Eh, on additional thought Arcane is the obvious answer. Their SF1 list is 60% physical blasts, walls, environmental manipulation, or other crowd control, 25% probability manipulation and other weird stuff, and 15% mental manipulation (charm, suggestion, hold, confusion).
I suppose. Would feel abit weird to have two Very arcane casters in such a small line up, but it's not like SF2e can't introduce new Occult or Primal tradition classes.
Duck hunt and Super Mario are both compatible with the NES, that word is a lot more flexible then some seem to be thinking.
They're not compatible with each other though. This statement is like saying that Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e are compatible because they are compatible with the format of books, as your two video games are compatible with the format of their console, but these games, Starfinder 2 and Pathfinder 2 are compatible with each other and the field test shows you can pluck elements from one and bring it to the other. I could definitely play a wizard in Starfinder 2 and it work so long as I use Starfinder items
Duck hunt and Super Mario are both compatible with the NES, that word is a lot more flexible then some seem to be thinking.
The playtest FAQ provides clarities on the nature of what compatible means in this instance:
Yes. Starfinder Second Edition is being intentionally designed using the Player Core and GM Core books as a baseline rules system. This means that the games will work interchangeably, so you can easily sprinkle your fantasy or science-fantasy elements into either game as you desire.
Again, yes! One of the exciting elements of this compatibility change is that it allows us to do some fun things like include Starfinder creatures in Pathfinder products (and vice-versa), or even sprinkle in some fun equipment between the game systems as unique and interesting rewards. Our first Field Test even includes some laser wolves and a sidebar that explains how they might show up in a Pathfinder campaign
The playtest is going to focus on what we see as being key components to Starfinder. Since we’re going to be fully compatible with Pathfinder Second Edition, the base game engine is tried and tested. This leaves us free to focus on a few critical elements: classes, an item level-based equipment system, new core skills, updated relevant rules across the game, and a general testing of the gameplay experience. All of this, along with the usual stable of new ancestries, feats, spells, and more!
And the field test itself talks about using classes from one game in the other.
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I think you may be looking at this with too much of a PF2 lens. With this new edition of Starfinder, the design team has already stated that they are looking to not just simply create a “Fighter in space”. They don’t want to retread the same design space; instead, they want to innovate. Clearly, they are taking this approach with all classes.
We already know that the Mystic is going to have a spell list that draws from both Divine and Primal, which both align with the Life Essence. That combined Tradition list is already very different from any PF2 spellcasting class. I would bet that the Mystic might not even get all of the spells from both lists, either. We know that the Mystic class is hyper-focused on healing. They will probably focus more on spells that have more of a focus on Life Essence over spells that focus more on Matter or Spirit Essence. What if, instead of deciding which spellcasting Tradition they are looking at taking spells from, Starfinder spellcasting classes will be more concerned with which Essence their spells focus on?
So, taking that logic a step forward, I propose something like the following:
Mystic - Life Essence spells (Divine & Primal)
Technomancer - Matter Essence spells (Arcane & Primal)
Precog - Mind Essence spells (Arcane & Occult)
Witchwarper - Spirit Essence spells (Divine & Occult) - Witchwarper might even have a selectable spell list/Essence like the Sorcerer and Witch do. I admit thatSpirit is a weird one for Witchwarper and is only there on my list because it was the last unclaimed Essence list.
The pairings of which Essence should go to which Class could be debated, but I don’t think I am too far off on this idea, given what has already been stated about the Mystic. A couple of the classes could even have the same spell list/Essence; much like the Oracle and Cleric do.
Of course, everything is still in early development. So everything could change at any moment and the designers may still have yet to decide anything regarding the other spellcasting classes. I don’t think the initial release of Starfinder 2E is going to have all of the SF1 classes and will likely have 8, at most, in the final core rulebook release, after considering the PF2 Remaster. After all, the play test is already stated to have only 6 classes.
as of now, Precog or witchwarper have their own spell list. I believe that in Starfinder 2, they will keep their own spell list that could be a mix of multiple traditions.
I anticipate that the spell list proposed in SF2e will probably be rather different from the spell list in PF2e.
Of course you could use spells from PathFinder 2 in Starfinder 2 but what would be the intent ? Why learn a 3rd level spell like "fly", when everyone can purchase a jet pack ?
So Spells in Starfinder need to be useful in a space situation, Mystics are not priest, Technomancers are not wizard nor sorcerer (or even witch), the dev team has made it clear that there was no point in just transposing PF2e classes in SF2e but to create classes that fits with the settings. Technomancers are not just mage, they are expert at blending Magic and technology
On the other hand, even If I'd wish that class like precog and Witchwarper would be presenter in SF2E corebook, and may be they will disapear in 2nd edition (my favorite class is the precog)
ie, a Mystic's Mind Thrust may be something spiritually looking, but a Precog gives someone a migraine as they try to think of all their possible pasts, Technomancer shoots raw nanites into someone's brain to reprogram them briefly,etc.
You don't do that already? A Bard, a Cleric, a Druid, a non-arcane Sorcerer, and a non-arcane Summoner can all cast Guidance. I don't expect that they would be described in-game at all similarly between all of those characters.
-----
Also, I have seen it posted here that you are not going to need the Pathfinder2e books in order to play Starfinder2e. So I fully expect that Starfinder will have its own spells still - not just copies of the ones from the Pathfinder2e Player Core book.
ie, a Mystic's Mind Thrust may be something spiritually looking, but a Precog gives someone a migraine as they try to think of all their possible pasts, Technomancer shoots raw nanites into someone's brain to reprogram them briefly,etc.You don't do that already? A Bard, a Cleric, a Druid, a non-arcane Sorcerer, and a non-arcane Summoner can all cast Guidance. I don't expect that they would be described in-game at all similarly between all of those characters.
*snip*
In response to this and a few other comments above -- Rather than wasting word space and forcing a situation where they have to create 'unique' spells for each caster variant, a 'Unified Magic Theory' sort of thing (since schools will in PF2RM will be more 'social gatherings that teach a methodology') that cuts down on having to say 'This is a Witchwarper spell. This is a Technomancer spell', etc.
While it's fun to think what spell lists a SF2 caster may draw from if they were applied, I really hope they stick to SF exclusive spells for the new classes. To help keep the sci fi flavor of these classes, and keep them more distinct from the PF 2 classes, which is a goal they have in mind.
PF2 launched with five casters if I'm not mistaken. Wizard, bard, cleric, druid and sorcerer. And has added a good deal more like witch. For that system, it makes sense to me to have these lists of spells, and then assign one to a new caster class being added, or let them pick one like sorcerer and witch can.
But I'm not sure if that will be as useful or necessary in SF2. It's launching with six classes. One is confirmed to be a caster, and I feel like it's safe to assume one of the other two is probably technomancer or something similar. I doubt there will be three casters at launch. SF1 launched with two casters and ended with four. Only adding two more in the entire life of the edition.
I'm hoping that with the cross compatibility, they'll let people bring their wizards, bards, clerics etc from PF2 into SF2 easily, but have all new spells for the SF casters to distinguish them, and keep that sci fi flavor in their spells. Unless SF 2 ends up adding a lot more casters than SF1 did, I don't feel like they need create spell lists in the same way, and could just give the few SF casters their own spell lists again. Or use more loose category tags.
Or if they do want to have lists or tags for spells, make new ones for SF. Like Tech for spells that interact directly with technological devices, temporal for spells that manipulate time, etc.
We may get some insight into their current plans when we see info on the Mystic. But I'm really hoping their approach isn't to say, just give Mystic the Divine spell list and Technomancer the arcane spell list, sprinkle in a handful of new spells, and then call it a day.
It would be a valid choice for Starfinder to have different magic traditions. These are traditions, after all, and not "the way the universe works."
One thing that would be interesting is if by Starfinder times they had figured out how to combine the opposing essences: Mind+Life, and Material+Spiritual.
Like TEchnomancy could absolutely be "the magic of dealing with the spirits in things" i.e. material+spiritual.