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I mean, it shouldn't be controversial that if you have decided that you are not using the OGL then you don't get to use things you are only able to use because of the OGL.
We knew that the name "Magic Missile" was going away when they made this decision.
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I know there are some players who have been asking for more Drow content since the beginning of PF2, and maybe around the publication of abomination vaults it seemed like you might have been close to getting it, but that was a long time ago now, and there hadn’t really been anything hinting at more since. Isn’t it better, if more Drow content was something you were waiting for to be told that it is just not coming, rather than being strung along by a company that had no need to say anything at all.
I mean, the whole point of not carrying Drow forward into the ORC is not writing any new material that references them or points to a place on the map where this thing *wink, wink* (that now feels like a big hole) used to be.
The last thing Paizo wants to do moving forward is shackle themselves to lore that they can literally never write about again.
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Exactly. Lot of new TTRPGs are coming out. Let your love of the old lore die and try something not Wotc or Paizo.
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All they had to do was state how the drow left the planet to the planet they control in Starfinder, then add a reason why and make that the new big enemy in the Darklands.
That's it, nobody can claim that WotC has ownership of evil space elves, else they should delete normal elves which are also space elves. Getting rid of them wholesale is the worst option.
Perhaps. However, they could argue that they do have ownership of the evil elves who look like their intellectual property, live in matriarchal societies, and worship demons. Even if Hasbro lost in court, the threat of legal action could be enough to greatly harm Paizo.
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Exactly. Lot of new TTRPGs are coming out. Let your love of the old lore die and try something not Wotc or Paizo.
Over Drow? No thanks! Paizo has demonstrated a commitment to ethical business practices, supporting the industry, bringing in exciting new writers and creating an absolutely fantastic community of support. Some of their lost omen books have reinvented the genre and the Mwangi Expanse book is the first RPG book that I “had” to own a print copy of in a long time. The remastered books look to be following suit. Of D&D IPs, beholders will always behold a piece of my heart far above Drow. In Golarion, I want Kholo and Iruxi to get more time in the spot light.
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All they had to do was state how the drow left the planet to the planet they control in Starfinder, then add a reason why and make that the new big enemy in the Darklands.
That's it, nobody can claim that WotC has ownership of evil space elves, else they should delete normal elves which are also space elves. Getting rid of them wholesale is the worst option.
Where do they put this? If they put it in any ORC licensed material, they are inviting trouble for the whole product line. Maybe, since you published that here on the boards, it can be all the canon you need to make it so in the world. They definitely are not writing anything more about it, so you can get the last word.
Star finder is not moving to ORC for the time being so we don’t really know how any of this will shake out in Starfindef lore if and when it makes the jump too. There is probably much less risk of legal reasons to make changes to a setting of space fantasy.
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The writers clearly disagree with you, and claiming they're lying about their motivations is really uncharitable.Since Ancestries are not as loaded with stuff as races used to be (i.e. you're not getting a bunch of SLAs at low levels anymore). It shouldn't be too hard for people who are so inclined. All you need is the base array of move speed, attribute bonuses/penalties, vision, and any special things (light sensitivity?), then some heritages, and some feats. There's enough other ancestries out there that you can use for a model for "what effects are reasonable for a heritage or feat at a given level."
As for whether Second Darkness is still canon, I think "there used to be Drow, but they disappeared under mysterious circumstances" is a more interesting plot thread, but I understand why Paizo wouldn't want to commit to it.
tbh Im starting to feel a lot of these changes are more them airing out their grievances with a lot of innate dnd things, and trying to make pathfinders IP "their own", and are using the OGL thing as a excuse(that doesnt really hold up well) Like makign up a bunch of dark elves isnt hard or conflicting at all, its a lose idea wotc even without the OGL cant really sue you over it.
The reality is i get they want their own entire ip to be unique and distinct, but at this point you have to realize you built 2 games built on this foundation and the more you try to push again that the more issues you will make.
I think its time to face a harsher reality, which is that.
Its time for PF3e and its time for Golarion in general to go, or be entirely rebooted.
When a game company is talking to its lawyers about someone else's intellectual property and how to avoid legal action, they are in a position where making changes to avoid a lawsuit. Based on what I have seen, I see no evidence that they are lying about their motivations. Rather, I have seen people post about how hard it was to make difficult decisions. I do not envy anyone right now who has made anything with the OGL. They have to figure out how to move forward when Hasbro could come back and decide to take action against them. We have to remember that the people in these companies have lives and livelihoods, and have to decide what is best not just for their companies but for themselves.
Before the OGL controversy, Paizo was considering how to present its products. Now, Paizo, Kobold Press. and other companies are working on games and products that move away from the OGL. Realistically, none of them want to tie up their resources in a potential legal battle.
I will miss the drow as I have played with people who had drow characters as far back as AD&D First Edition. However, I have faith that James Jacobs and other developers are trying to make the best of a situation that they did not imagine happening less than a year ago.
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All they had to do was state how the drow left the planet to the planet they control in Starfinder, then add a reason why and make that the new big enemy in the Darklands.
That's it, nobody can claim that WotC has ownership of evil space elves, else they should delete normal elves which are also space elves. Getting rid of them wholesale is the worst option.
Where do they put this? If they put it in any ORC licensed material, they are inviting trouble for the whole product line. Maybe, since you published that here on the boards, it can be all the canon you need to make it so in the world. They definitely are not writing anything more about it, so you can get the last word.
Star finder is not moving to ORC for the time being so we don’t really know how any of this will shake out in Starfindef lore if and when it makes the jump too. There is probably much less risk of legal reasons to make changes to a setting of space fantasy.
By posting it on the forums, it effectively prevents Paizo from even using the idea, as that risks an argument that they need to pay the poster for the idea.
It's why they don't read unsolicited submissions, to avoid any possible accusations of plagiarism.
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If anyone wants a game about Drow that's nowhere near the OGL, then Spire: The City Must Fall (and the excellent spiritual successor, Heart: The City Beneath) are both absolutely lovely.
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If anyone wants a game about Drow that's nowhere near the OGL, then Spire: The City Must Fall (and the excellent spiritual successor, Heart: The City Beneath) are both absolutely lovely.
This looks awesome, will check it out
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All they had to do was state how the drow left the planet to the planet they control in Starfinder, then add a reason why and make that the new big enemy in the Darklands.
That's it, nobody can claim that WotC has ownership of evil space elves, else they should delete normal elves which are also space elves. Getting rid of them wholesale is the worst option.
Where do they put this? If they put it in any ORC licensed material, they are inviting trouble for the whole product line. Maybe, since you published that here on the boards, it can be all the canon you need to make it so in the world. They definitely are not writing anything more about it, so you can get the last word.
Star finder is not moving to ORC for the time being so we don’t really know how any of this will shake out in Starfindef lore if and when it makes the jump too. There is probably much less risk of legal reasons to make changes to a setting of space fantasy.
By posting it on the forums, it effectively prevents Paizo from even using the idea, as that risks an argument that they need to pay the poster for the idea.
Were paizo somehow to decide to publish an "ending for the Drow" in another OGL publication, which can't happen because they are not starting any new publications that will be published under OGL, it would actually be much, much worse, because it means that everyone who wants to keep using drow in their system under some auspice of "canon" is likely to have a conclusion that doesn't work at all for them, and to what end? It doesn't matter what "officially" happens to Drow, so you can now consider Drow to be a section of Golarion Lore that can have any fate you wish, because nothing will ever be published to contradict you.
It's why they don't read unsolicited submissions, to avoid any possible accusations of plagiarism.
I was saying Temprans can consider this fate that he just wrote as the official lore of the Drow in his Golarion. No future material is ever going to touch them, so literally any ending you personally want for the Drow works just fine. It is an open ending that you never have to worry about getting retconned by future material.
If paizo were to publish some OGL book/blog post/whatever to specifically talk about drow (which would violate their move to only use ORC with all new projects and be a logistical nightmare) it would actually be worse than leaving it alone, because now Drow are in a space where you know you can safely tell any story you want about them and it will never conflict with anything Paizo is going to publish ever again. Leaving it this way leaves all the OGL in whatever state you want/need them to be for your own game.
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If anyone wants a game about Drow that's nowhere near the OGL, then Spire: The City Must Fall (and the excellent spiritual successor, Heart: The City Beneath) are both absolutely lovely.This looks awesome, will check it out
Heart has playable Gnolls! :D
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No one is going to be happy about any of this. The designers least of all probably. Grace and no small amount of patience are probably be the best thing to keep in mind going forward, but it is just as important to acknowledge that few enjoy watching sausage getting made, especially out of an animal whose name you knew and just saw yesterday.
I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?
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Heart has playable Gnolls! :DIf anyone wants a game about Drow that's nowhere near the OGL, then Spire: The City Must Fall (and the excellent spiritual successor, Heart: The City Beneath) are both absolutely lovely.This looks awesome, will check it out
So does Eberron and Pathfinder 2E has playable Gnolls...Mwangi Expanse?
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I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?
That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.
Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.
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If anyone wants a game about Drow that's nowhere near the OGL, then Spire: The City Must Fall (and the excellent spiritual successor, Heart: The City Beneath) are both absolutely lovely.
I can wholeheartedly back this up - I'd have to say that the design for class abilities in Spire and Heart is some of my favourite design across all the ttRPGs I've read. The classes have a lovely degree of specificity to the world, while still feeling like they could fit a wide range of characters. If anyone is on the fence, I'd encourage giving them a shot! :)
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I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them?That's exactly right.
How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?In the future, Paizo (and other companies) will be publishing their material under the ORC license. Unlike the OGL, which is controlled by Hasbro/WotC, the ORC license will be controlled by a non-profit. It has also been deliberately written to prevent any company from suddenly threatening to terminate the license.
So, once the four primary Paizo rules books (Player Core 1, Game Master Core, Monster Core, Player Core 2) have been published, all the changes will have worked their way through the publishing process. There won't be any ancestries left that have any connection to Hasbro.
After that, it can't happen with other ancestries, because there will be a very clear separation between what is Paizo's intellectual property (other people can't use it without specific permission from Paizo) and the Open RPG Creative material that anyone is free to use.
It will take a couple years, but going forward, no one will be able to threaten ttRPG companies with expensive lawsuits for using publicly shared materials.
Also, nothing is preventing GMs and players from using whatever they wish at their tables.
I think we will see a lot more creativity from Paizo, Kobold Press, and others because they can no longer harken back to anything produced under the OGL. I will miss what goes, but I would rather see Paizo and Kobold Press offering new products than fighting for their existence in court.
I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.
Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.
So they still exist, just under a different name? I don't want to see Tieflings go away completely. Change the name? Fine. Can't play a demon looking person anymore? Not fine.
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So they still exist, just under a different name? I don't want to see Tieflings go away completely. Change the name? Fine. Can't play a demon looking person anymore? Not fine.I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.
Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.
Can ABSOLUTELY play a demonblooded/descended/looking person.
Just can't call them Tieflings.
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So they still exist, just under a different name? I don't want to see Tieflings go away completely. Change the name? Fine. Can't play a demon looking person anymore? Not fine.I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.
Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.
Can ABSOLUTELY play a demonblooded/descended/looking person.
Just can't call them Tieflings.
Heck, you can even play a demonblooded/descended cavern elf or a fleshwarped cavern elf.
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Just can't call them Tieflings.
Eagle eyed readers of the Pathfinder novels should remember that they already weren't calling them Tieflings, since those weren't covered by the OGL. But Radovan's in a bunch of them.
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I don't know if James will see this, but I read his response re: the drow and I just wanted to thank him for being honest and clear and vulnerable about what went into the decision.
I'm sad a lot of things I like are going away all at once - but it made all the difference in my coming to peace with it in reading what he had to say. I just appreciate the transparency and I can tell how much the game and setting means to you and the team.
For me, that's enough to realize it'll be okay even if I'm sad about some of the losses.
So they still exist, just under a different name?Not exactly.
Nothing "still exists, just under a different name". Doing that would leave Paizo vulnerable to being sued by Hasbro for infringing on Hasbro's intellectual property.
The more closely people identify an ancestry with Hasbro (Drizzt) the riskier it would be. But some ideas (like tieflings) are less closely connected to Hasbro, so it's easier to make enough changes to demonstrate that the Paizo version isn't copying anything from Hasbro.
But can't we still play "Tieflings"?
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But can't we still play "Tieflings"?So they still exist, just under a different name?Not exactly.
Nothing "still exists, just under a different name". Doing that would leave Paizo vulnerable to being sued by Hasbro for infringing on Hasbro's intellectual property.
The more closely people identify an ancestry with Hasbro (Drizzt) the riskier it would be. But some ideas (like tieflings) are less closely connected to Hasbro, so it's easier to make enough changes to demonstrate that the Paizo version isn't copying anything from Hasbro.
You can play fiend-touched Nephilim. You can also now play a Nephilim with a mixed celestial and fiendish lineage.
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I played a Cecaelia so I could wear a very poofy skirt so I could change my height by several feet periodically to see if anybody notices.
"Did you used to be 6.5 feet tall? I swear you were like 5"4'."
I played an Astomoi so I could roleplay being incredulous when the other members of the party describe things that were more than 60' away, like "the sun."
Sometimes you just want to be a weird thing because being a weird thing is fun.
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...it's the reason they're removing them from the setting and reconning the lore.It's not the only reason, I'm sure. I do believe Paizo when they say they are doing it to avoid legal entanglements over the OGL.
But I don't believe for a moment that, that is the only reason. Paizo saw an opportunity to rid themselves of the growing social controversy that was the drow, and they took it. Plain and simple.
Can't say I really blame them for it. With the way the younger generations have been decrying "Burn it all down" over the drop of a hat these days, the decision likely would be "better for the future health of the company " in the long run.
This is just a profoundly strange way to view the topic - Paizo's efforts to change the Drow away from their original have broadly been celebrated by the people you're saying here would destroy Paizo over it. The more diversely aligned, lavender-skinned, protean-and-demon-adjacent Drow that PF2 has been moving towards are not part of any social controversy you're talking about. If any controversy exists here, it's from people reacting badly to changes away from older Drow lore, not because 'the youth are burning everything down'.
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The skin color choice was made to my understanding because it's scarier to have underground elves that blend in with the darkness.
Gygax could have gone the typical albino for underground creatures for the drow. He wanted to do something different that was scarier than the standard colorless albino type of creature you normally find underground.
I thought it was a cool choice that gave them an incredibly unique appearance.
The fact that they blended in so perfectly with the Underdark while being able to see perfectly in it was one of the scarier aspects of the drow.