Witch Revision Speculation

[Temperans]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

With the changes they made to the traditions, Areelu Vorlesh only made sense as a Divine witch. I don't see that changing either, and I also hope it doesn't.

There must be a pretty big difference between her in the AP and in the video game then because I would have pinned her as arcane fs without question and even would say she could easily be a wizard instead of a witch

She was a Witch and PF1 witch was arcane but with a very strange and "spooky" spell list. In PF2 that is better represent by the occult tradition which shares the "knowledge" aspect of arcane, but is more focused on the strange and "spooky" spells.

In terms of game design. Bard should had been spontaneous Arcane, while witch is occult prepared. But they wanted Alchemist to be in core and to build occult around bard. As you would understand, that really can't be changed now. But occult witch still should be the default with the others being class archetypes.

(Probably not a surprise I hate pick a list)

[Pieces-Kai]

I think the only reason why Bard isn't Arcane is because they didn't want them casting fireballs or other damaging spells in than vein

[Squiggit]

Pick a list makes the most sense for the Witch because of its broad thematic base, it opens up a lot of possibilities for players and fits the core conceit of 'patrons' well by representing a broad variety of concepts.

... If the Witch was a single list caster, it would probably be Arcane (Paizo even said as much at one point) because that has the closest alignment with everything the Witch should be able to do (and the few missing ingredients are good fodder for poaching).

Pieces-Kai wrote:

My personal problem with Occult lore is that they are trying to make Occult fit the Bard flavor when Witch is a much more natural fit for the Occult

There's no 'trying to', Occult was built from the ground up in PF2 the way it was, tailor made for the Bard and the right flavor of Sorcerers.

PF1 occult was entirely different, too, and focused around psychic powers.

Luckily, you can play an occult witch if you want to, but acting like it was somehow stolen from the Witch is really off base because it was never their thing to begin with.

[Pieces-Kai]

I never said it was stolen from Witch I just said Witch feels like a more natural fit for the Occult than the Bard where the Occult lore feels less natural than Arcane, Divine and Primal because it needs to justify why Bard is Occult.

I also think them being Occult and just having it so their patrons give them spells they normally wouldn't have access to like how Clerics work.

[Tunu40]

It seems Paizo ended up split on the direction? The three new patrons: 2 were Occult and 1 was Primal (annoyingly all Rare).

5 occult patrons, 3 primal, 1 divine/arcane in total.

But awkward because Occult has a lot of the “bewitching” stuff, but Primal I guess for better for Baba Yaga and her daughters?

I guess they really wanted them to have the Heal spell considering how Arcane is in-between Occult/Primal.

[Deriven Firelion]

I like Divine witches. More options for healers is always better for the game.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

spell access always been big part of caster subclass

like bloodline or conscious mind

pretty sure witch will get some too if they really get a decent update

[Vali Nepjarson]

While I do tend to come down on the side that the Witch should probably have been Occult, I will say that I don't think that Occult is nearly so much spooky and creepy that a lot of people I've seen make it out to be.

I get why people make this assumption, because the name Occult evokes the ideas of the strange, eldritch, and unfathomable. It's name includes the word "cult".

But when we look at all the spells that are unique to the Occult spell list, that doesn't seem to be the primary idea being represented.

We have some, sure. Paranoia, Ill Omen, Possession, Hypnopompic Terrors, Aberrant Form maybe Phantom Pain if you want to consider that creepy. Yes, it has more of those than other lists, but that's because it's the mental list and fear and horror are a part of the purview of "mental".

The vast majority of the spells are things like, Hypercognition, Retrocognition, Visions of Danger, Synesthesia, Cutting Insult, Liberating Word, Soothe, Imprint Message, Object Reading, Mind Link.

All very, very Bardy spells. As far as things like curses go, which are really the things that most people associate as being "witchy", yes the Occult list has the majority of them, but so does the Arcane list, and Primal has quite a few as well.

To that end, I think if we accept that Occult has a wider meaning that just "secret, eldritch, and unfathomable" and expand it to emotion and lore based magic, (which can include creepy, horror elements but is not limited to that), then Bard being Occult makes total sense.

The reason I personally prefer the Witch as being part of the Occult list is because I think that those types of spells that effect the mind and soul, Synesthesia, Mind Link, ect, are all important to the principal of what a Witch is. Even on a Winter Witch, most of the spells I'd want would be from the Occult list. Primal has way more dead spells that I would have no need of, including every other elemental spell like Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

I'd much rather the Witch get Occult, as well as a set of other spells given by the Patron. The Winter Patron, in this way, would allow you access to the Occult list as well as a set of Cold elemental spells like the Sorcerer Bloodlines do, or maybe just "Occult and any spell with the Cold Tag".

My Winter Witch has no reason whatsoever to take Flammable Fumes or Control Water, but I would absolutely want him to take Mind Probe or Rip the Spirit.

[Temperans]

Squiggit wrote:

Pick a list makes the most sense for the Witch because of its broad thematic base, it opens up a lot of possibilities for players and fits the core conceit of 'patrons' well by representing a broad variety of concepts.

... If the Witch was a single list caster, it would probably be Arcane (Paizo even said as much at one point) because that has the closest alignment with everything the Witch should be able to do (and the few missing ingredients are good fodder for poaching).

Pieces-Kai wrote:

My personal problem with Occult lore is that they are trying to make Occult fit the Bard flavor when Witch is a much more natural fit for the Occult

There's no 'trying to', Occult was built from the ground up in PF2 the way it was, tailor made for the Bard and the right flavor of Sorcerers.

PF1 occult was entirely different, too, and focused around psychic powers.

Luckily, you can play an occult witch if you want to, but acting like it was somehow stolen from the Witch is really off base because it was never their thing to begin with.

I was not saying it was stolen. I was saying it was a missed opportunity and that it would solve a lot of the issues of the current witch. Mainly a total and complete lack of focus.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think Pick-A-List is the best option for a witch since your patron could well be an Angel (divine), a fae (primal), a hag (occult), or whatever.

It doesn't make sense for your patron to teaching you a kind of magic unrelated to that patron.

But, "you get to pick a list" shouldn't really be considered part of a power budget, since it's just one choice at chargen.

[Temperans]

Vali Nepjarson wrote:

While I do tend to come down on the side that the Witch should probably have been Occult, I will say that I don't think that Occult is nearly so much spooky and creepy that a lot of people I've seen make it out to be.

I get why people make this assumption, because the name Occult evokes the ideas of the strange, eldritch, and unfathomable. It's name includes the word "cult".

But when we look at all the spells that are unique to the Occult spell list, that doesn't seem to be the primary idea being represented.

We have some, sure. Paranoia, Ill Omen, Possession, Hypnopompic Terrors, Aberrant Form maybe Phantom Pain if you want to consider that creepy. Yes, it has more of those than other lists, but that's because it's the mental list and fear and horror are a part of the purview of "mental".

The vast majority of the spells are things like, Hypercognition, Retrocognition, Visions of Danger, Synesthesia, Cutting Insult, Liberating Word, Soothe, Imprint Message, Object Reading, Mind Link.

All very, very Bardy spells. As far as things like curses go, which are really the things that most people associate as being "witchy", yes the Occult list has the majority of them, but so does the Arcane list, and Primal has quite a few as well.

To that end, I think if we accept that Occult has a wider meaning that just "secret, eldritch, and unfathomable" and expand it to emotion and lore based magic, (which can include creepy, horror elements but is not limited to that), then Bard being Occult makes total sense.

The reason I personally prefer the Witch as being part of the Occult list is because I think that those types of spells that effect the mind and soul, Synesthesia, Mind Link, ect, are all important to the principal of what a Witch is. Even on a Winter Witch, most of the spells I'd want would be from the Occult list. Primal has way more dead spells that I would have no need of, including every other elemental spell like Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

I'd much rather the Witch get Occult, as well as...

Mostly this.

I disagree on the spells you listed being "bardic". Hypercognition, Retrocognition, and Visions of Danger can go for a divining witch. Mind Link, Object Reading, and Imprint Message are very witchy spells. Cutting Insult might seem like a bard spell because of 5e, but it really could fit anything; Its really just a more precise and weaker power word. Etc.

People say they like divine because of healing. But occult also has healing and they could easily provide more healing via hexes and potions.

People say they like primal because elemental damage, which I can see and understand. But then I also think that arcane and primal should not have a monopoly on elemental damage, just the better version of those spells.

Arcane is the only one that fits witch besides occult. But in this edition the wizard and witch having the same list eat each other's lunch, except witch is saddled with the familiar. This is why everyone says that arcane witch is a worse wizard.

[Vali Nepjarson]

Temperans wrote:

I disagree on the spells you listed being "bardic". Hypercognition, Retrocognition, and Visions of Danger can go for a divining witch. Mind Link, Object Reading, and Imprint Message are very witchy spells. Cutting Insult might seem like a bard spell because of 5e, but it really could fit anything; Its really just a more precise and weaker power word. Etc.

Note, I don't mean to say that these spells are uniquely bardic spells or not witchy. I'm just saying that they are spells that are very much appropriate for Bards and make sense to be on the list that was developed with Bards in mind.

[Temperans]

Vali Nepjarson wrote:

Temperans wrote:

I disagree on the spells you listed being "bardic". Hypercognition, Retrocognition, and Visions of Danger can go for a divining witch. Mind Link, Object Reading, and Imprint Message are very witchy spells. Cutting Insult might seem like a bard spell because of 5e, but it really could fit anything; Its really just a more precise and weaker power word. Etc.

Note, I don't mean to say that these spells are uniquely bardic spells or not witchy. I'm just saying that they are spells that are very much appropriate for Bards and make sense to be on the list that was developed with Bards in mind.

Okay I can see that.

[AestheticDialectic]

Temperans wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

With the changes they made to the traditions, Areelu Vorlesh only made sense as a Divine witch. I don't see that changing either, and I also hope it doesn't.

There must be a pretty big difference between her in the AP and in the video game then because I would have pinned her as arcane fs without question and even would say she could easily be a wizard instead of a witch

She was a Witch and PF1 witch was arcane but with a very strange and "spooky" spell list. In PF2 that is better represent by the occult tradition which shares the "knowledge" aspect of arcane, but is more focused on the strange and "spooky" spells.

In terms of game design. Bard should had been spontaneous Arcane, while witch is occult prepared. But they wanted Alchemist to be in core and to build occult around bard. As you would understand, that really can't be changed now. But occult witch still should be the default with the others being class archetypes.

(Probably not a surprise I hate pick a list)

I have 1e books, I played 1e, witch was one of my favorite classes and I'm very aware that Areelu says "witch" on her character sheet, both in the AP and in the video game. I also would challenge both notions. That the occult list is "spooky" and that the og witch list was all that "spooky". The list included spells like cure wounds, heal and heroism, but didn't have spells like animate dead by default. The witch list fit between what we would call arcane, occult, divine and primal now. The witch hexes also ran this gambit. Including a dedicated healing hex, a hex that granted good luck (literally Fortune), and hexes that were protective wards. The witch even had a whole class archetype for being a healer. Which is probably the witchiest witch when it comes to real people who'd call themselves witches, or would have way back before the witch hunts in Europe

Also pretty sure the iconic witch's patron was/is Desna

[The Raven Black]

Temperans wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Pick a list makes the most sense for the Witch because of its broad thematic base, it opens up a lot of possibilities for players and fits the core conceit of 'patrons' well by representing a broad variety of concepts.

... If the Witch was a single list caster, it would probably be Arcane (Paizo even said as much at one point) because that has the closest alignment with everything the Witch should be able to do (and the few missing ingredients are good fodder for poaching).

Pieces-Kai wrote:

My personal problem with Occult lore is that they are trying to make Occult fit the Bard flavor when Witch is a much more natural fit for the Occult

There's no 'trying to', Occult was built from the ground up in PF2 the way it was, tailor made for the Bard and the right flavor of Sorcerers.

PF1 occult was entirely different, too, and focused around psychic powers.

Luckily, you can play an occult witch if you want to, but acting like it was somehow stolen from the Witch is really off base because it was never their thing to begin with.

I was not saying it was stolen. I was saying it was a missed opportunity and that it would solve a lot of the issues of the current witch. Mainly a total and complete lack of focus.

I do not feel other Pick-a-list classes lack focus.

So, maybe the Witch being one is not what is at fault in its current pre-Remastered incarnation.

[Silver2195]

Object Reading doesn't strike me as particularly witchy or bardic, really. Perfect fit for the Psychic class, though.

[Tunu40]

One thing I thought the Premaster Witch would be special compared to the Sorcerer (on release) was the ability to “build-your-spell list” through the Lessons.

That seemed pretty cool because the Sorcerer bloodlines all granted thematic bonus spells.

Then I realized…there’s not really a lot of choices in lessons. Especially if you go Occult witch. Of Basic Lessons, I think only Lesson of Elements offers you new spells outside your spell list.