Warpriest advice


Advice


The topic of the warpriest has been discussed for quite some time in detail. He has some issues, MADness, action economy being a couple big ones. Now we are playing with a GM who typically gives us 1 round to buff, for example we are travelling in a dungeon and we do a perception at the door and we hear some creatures on the other side. He allows us to prebuff one round then battle, sometimes if enemies are off in the distance he gives us a free round then we automatically roll initiative. So my question is how good is the warpriest (mid game level 8-10) when yes able to 80% of the time cast Haste on himself before battle starts. Is he still far behind the other martial characters, is he on par, or is he slightly ahead?


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A bit behind other martials because of the strange weapon proficiency increases. If I remember correctly they have the same weapon proficiency progression as Alchemist. So less than any other martial class including rogue, investigator, and inventor - but better than any full spellcasting class like wizard, druid, and bard.

You could maybe make up some of that accuracy penalty using spell buffs, but that only brings you back up to where you would be if you were playing a Ranger but ignoring Hunt Prey.

The purpose in choosing Warpriest is to be a full caster that isn't nearly as squishy. They are a much tankier build than pretty much any other full spellcaster with the possible exception of certain Druid builds. But they don't compete well with martial classes in attack power, or Champion in defense power.

Edit: I think there are some levels where the proficiency between Warpriest and other martial classes is the same and the mid level range of 8 - 10 may be in that range. But even with that, the Warpriest isn't better than a Ranger or Rogue as far as hitting people with a weapon. The spellcasting may give them a bit of an edge, but it will be in competition with the Ranger Edge and Rogue Sneak Attack and other such martial class tricks. And Hunt Prey and Sneak Attack are always available - spells cost spell slots.


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Hi!

So, I've been playing a Warpriest for 18 levels now... about to start Book Six of Extinction Curse.

Levels 7-9 are really good levels for Warpriest, really. If you've maxed out your Strength to 18 you're hitting just as well as any Martial that isn't a Fighter or Gunslinger. Expert Proficiency + Attribute Bonus 4 + Lesser Potency Rune.

Where you're lacking a bit is in damage. Most Martial Classes have some kind of damage adder. Clerics, well, by 8th level Clerics might have two minor ones: Divine Weapon and Align Armament.

I have both; Divine Weapon I've used on occasion, but not terribly often. If I Cast a Spell I usually want to Raise Shield as my third action, not attack. But, sometimes I need to play it loose to try to end something, and every bit of damage helps.

Align Armament I've used a lot. It's an action tax until 14th level, but I've generally found focusing on one solid Strike per round is worth it. If you plan to use Haste a lot, it's even better imho. Align, Strike, Strike (Quickened Action), Raise Shield... that sounds pretty good to me.

Keep in mind that you're generally hitting as hard as a Champion, although not as often as you don't have their Reaction, and that's without the two Feats I talk about above. The DPS will never take home the trophy, but it can't be ignored either. I've had my share of fight-ending blows.

I like being in the thick of things. I'm usually flanking with the party Barbarian (he's an Animal Instinct (Bear) Wrestler, and he's scary in the best ways.) I tank a lot with Replenishment of War and Shield Block.

And I have a decent Healing Font (4 per day L5-9, 5 per day L10-19) with a full slate of spell slots. Channeled Succor has been nice on the support side.

I have a lot of fun with my Warpriest. At the level range you're talking about I suspect you'll have a lot of fun with yours. (I definitely had fun back at those levels.)


Did you try Channel Smite at all?
I suppose it is for that group of warpriests that get mixed divine fonts and True Strike. Gorum, Ragathiel


I have Channel Smite. There haven't been a lot of opportunities to use it, although that may be changing.

It's been quite effective for me when I have used it, even without True Strike. Of course, I'm only at -1 below a Martial these days thanks to Eternal Blessing. EB also has the beautiful side effect of helping out the rest of the party so hey, win!

I went with Cayden Caillean for the flavour (my guy's background is Barkeep) and using a Rapier has been quite fun.


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Atalius wrote:
The topic of the warpriest has been discussed for quite some time in detail. He has some issues, MADness, action economy being a couple big ones. Now we are playing with a GM who typically gives us 1 round to buff, for example we are travelling in a dungeon and we do a perception at the door and we hear some creatures on the other side. He allows us to prebuff one round then battle, sometimes if enemies are off in the distance he gives us a free round then we automatically roll initiative. So my question is how good is the warpriest (mid game level 8-10) when yes able to 80% of the time cast Haste on himself before battle starts. Is he still far behind the other martial characters, is he on par, or is he slightly ahead?

The problem with this is: the right thing to do is cast heroism on the barbarian, or haste on the ranger/fighter - not cast on the war priest.

Generally the martials attacks are just better than yours and are worth investing in more. But it really depends on the make up of your party.
War Priest is a bit of a generalist. But it is OK in the front line if it uses a shield.


Warpriests also have Emblazon Armament/Energy. If you combine those with Align Armament, your damage per hit is about as good as a fighter's. Your chance to hit (and crit) completely pales in comparison, of course.


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I have Emblazon Armament, but I never found the room to take any of the follow-ups. I use it with my shield... I value +1 Hardness over +1 Damage. I actually swapped it last adventure... I needed to be subtler than usual and a large Silver Mug on a shield isn't terribly subtle. A smaller one on the hilt of a rapier though...


Clerics have a lot of damage fixer feat options

And a full spell list

I think they are completely viable as a class. You replace use of wands, scrolls and likely staves in combat in exchange for a good shield and weapon.

I'd probably run longsword and shield. And I'd still cast haste or heroism on myself and smirk at the martial player telling me how to use my spells.

Between emblazon and align and divine weapon and channel smite and eternal blessing and a full spell list

They can hit decently when they choose to and don't die from a slight breeze thanks to their innate defenses. And zeal domain power seems good


Yeah, I've had very positive experiences with war priests. Snagging heavy armor proficiency helps. I've seen them work with both maxed Charisma and maxed Wisdom. (Strength is obviously maxed on both. The Charisma build is really good for channel smite. We've got one in Abomination Vaults who basically only preps heal, harm, heroism, and true strike. He one shot a monster with a 90 damage crit the other day. He's also got so many heal spells that kf I don't knock him down in one round he's just going heal all his damage off, which makes him an excellent front line damage sink.

Wisdom builds are a little more complicated, because you need to dance between spells and strikes, but is still viable until at least level 11.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, I've had very positive experiences with war priests. Snagging heavy armor proficiency helps. I've seen them work with both maxed Charisma and maxed Wisdom. (Strength is obviously maxed on both. The Charisma build is really good for channel smite. We've got one in Abomination Vaults who basically only preps heal, harm, heroism, and true strike. He one shot a monster with a 90 damage crit the other day. He's also got so many heal spells that kf I don't knock him down in one round he's just going heal all his damage off, which makes him an excellent front line damage sink.

Wisdom builds are a little more complicated, because you need to dance between spells and strikes, but is still viable until at least level 11.

If I had to go into a party blind not knowing other character choices. I think I would be doing one of the generalists WarPriest, Battle Oracle, or Storm and Wild Druid. They all work well.


My Goodness, so some of you are saying even literally with 4 actions per round (free haste) he still has his issues? Smh that's kind of sad. I would have thought he is definitely on par with other martials at that point, and yes I was thinking a non-offensive spell casting Warpriest one who is Charisma focused and goes for Smite Evil and has access to True Strike would do the job nicely. But I see what your saying Gortle, it's best to cast those buffs on the fighter, really the warpriest isn't going to be able to hit or deal DMG like the fighter, unless Smiting.


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Atalius wrote:
My Goodness, so some of you are saying even literally with 4 actions per round (free haste) he still has his issues? Smh that's kind of sad. I would have thought he is definitely on par with other martials at that point, and yes I was thinking a non-offensive spell casting Warpriest one who is Charisma focused and goes for Smite Evil and has access to True Strike would do the job nicely.

If I built a war priest in PF2, I would make a fighter with a Cleric Multiclass Archetype myself unless you want to be more caster than fighter.

Warpriest is ok as long as you plan to buff yourself primarily and do Channel Smite a lot.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
Atalius wrote:
My Goodness, so some of you are saying even literally with 4 actions per round (free haste) he still has his issues? Smh that's kind of sad. I would have thought he is definitely on par with other martials at that point, and yes I was thinking a non-offensive spell casting Warpriest one who is Charisma focused and goes for Smite Evil and has access to True Strike would do the job nicely.

If I built a war priest in PF2, I would make a fighter with a Cleric Multiclass Archetype myself unless you want to be more caster than fighter.

Warpriest is ok as long as you plan to buff yourself primarily and do Channel Smite a lot.

Yes this was the idea


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Atalius wrote:
My Goodness, so some of you are saying even literally with 4 actions per round (free haste) he still has his issues? Smh that's kind of sad. I would have thought he is definitely on par with other martials at that point, and yes I was thinking a non-offensive spell casting Warpriest one who is Charisma focused and goes for Smite Evil and has access to True Strike would do the job nicely. But I see what your saying Gortle, it's best to cast those buffs on the fighter, really the warpriest isn't going to be able to hit or deal DMG like the fighter, unless Smiting.

The best is Haste 7 then everyone gets the extra action. Remember a cleric need to get Haste from their deity (there are 11 deities that give it).

Just because the cleric has buffs doesn't mean the martial won't have buffs.
Just because it might be optimal to cast the spell on the martial doesn't mean that you will.

If you just want to hit, be a martial. If you want to do a range of things then the warpriest works fine. Not the least being intimidation with your much better charisma score.


I thought about going the Intimidation route, I really did... but ultimately I decided to take Medicine, Religion and Crafting. (I need to keep my Shield repaired.)

Battle Prayer has been greatly amusing. I usually only use it when I can't close to Melee for some reason.


I still can't wrap my head around going all charisma on a Warpriest. Are two more spell slots really worth screwing half your spell list?

When thinking about an "optimized" Warpriest*, I'd assume I get heavy armor from somewhere. So my abilities are either 16, 10, 12, 10, 18, 12 or 16, 10, 12, 10, 12, 16, yes?

The extra Charisma makes Intimidate a better option and grants 2 more Font slots. The latter is a good bonus early on but seems largely irrelevant at mid to high levels.

And in exchange for that I take a massive hit to my spellcasting. No Chill Touch + Strike. No Cast Down + Strike. No Couteract spells. No Spiritual Weapon/Guardians as cheap ongoing ranged option. No double (or tripple) Harm if I need to get rid of an enemy right now.

I know the warpriest has stunted spellcasting proficiency, which is bad. But ignoring Wisdom on top of that just makes such a huge part of the spell list borderline unusable. Max Wis at least keeps the Spell DC at about the same number as martial's class DCs and those seem to work well enough, no?

Even Channel Smite doesn't seem like a good enough reason to go max Charisma. Does it actually deal more damage on average than just doing Strike + Harm? (Assuming max Wis for the latter, of course) And of course you can still grab Channel Smite even on a max Wis Warpriest.

*If I really wanted to go full optimization I'd go Lizardfolk, of course. Str 16, Wis 18, Cha 14 is a very good ability spread to start a Warpriest on. Too bad we have literally no other ancestry that can pull this off. We need more 2 boost/1 flaw ancestries that come with Strength! (Why are nearly half of all ancestries Dex-Based anyway?!?)


That stat array looks good to me. Get heavy armor to make up for the low Dex. Focus on Str, Con, Wis, Cha for all your ability boosts. Alternate between solid physical damage and mixing in the spell hammer as needed. Get some good focus spells. Will you be the top damage guy? No. Will you be solid at doing damage and have lots of other useful abilities? Yep.


Blave wrote:
I know the warpriest has stunted spellcasting proficiency, which is bad. But ignoring Wisdom on top of that just makes such a huge part of the spell list borderline unusable. Max Wis at least keeps the Spell DC at about the same number as martial's class DCs and those seem to work well enough, no?

It is all about where you want to put your ability scores. If you want the max Wisdom and the only a shade down on offensive casting then go with that. If you want the Charisma skills and more in your font, do the other. Both work. In fact the build concept, as much as anything, stems from the over optimiser idea that the warpriest is bad at casting, so may as well double down if that is all you are going to do with it anyway. There are plenty of quality Divine spells that spell DC is irrelevant for.

Blave wrote:
Even Channel Smite doesn't seem like a good enough reason to go max Charisma. Does it actually deal more damage on average than just doing Strike + Harm? (Assuming max Wis for the latter, of course) And of course you can still grab Channel Smite even on a max Wis Warpriest.

Channel Smite makes sense based on the relative value of your enemies fortitude DC - which is often their best save - and their AC. What swings it around are if you have modifiers like Bless that adds to your attack but not your spell DC, Aid adds to your attack but not your spell DC. Then for the clerics that get True Strike the equation gets very one sided.

Blave wrote:
*If I really wanted to go full optimization I'd go Lizardfolk, of course. Str 16, Wis 18, Cha 14 is a very good ability spread to start a Warpriest on. Too bad we have literally no other ancestry that can pull this off. We need more 2 boost/1 flaw ancestries that come with Strength! (Why are nearly half of all ancestries Dex-Based anyway?!?)

It makes no sense why there are no Wis/Cha or Str/Cha ancestries. Why do they so often pair Wis and Con, and Dex with Cha


My only problem with Warpriest is that in high levels (starting from level 14) you could make the same or even better (due heavy armor) with a Cloistered Cleric + Champion Dedication + Diverse Armor Expert + Shield Block.
I know that's this cost 3 feats but this allows the cleric to keep it's full spellcasting proficiency with better armor and same martial proficiency that's gives them more offensive options using spells too.

Another very good alternative are Battle Oracles that's not only gives access to heavy armors but also to a martial weapon of a group of your choice (you are less restricted than simples + deity weapon) at same that gives you a kind of "rage" without concentration restriction and that works well even with ranged and agile weapons but that's requires you to Strike every round to prevent an additional penalty to your AC (but due the heavy armor proficiency this is already equals to warpriest medium armor). You may not take many of cleric feats by default (yet you can get some via MC) nor font but it's chassis is very good to an "martial" divine spell caster and also is less affected by MADness (no need to have a high wis for spells + good cha for font and some feats and good str for Strikes. You only need to focus in Cha and Str allowing you to put something more in Con). The another good advantage of battle oracles is that they are spontaneous spellcasters so you have more flexibility in what spells you will use during an encounter.

Going outside of divine tradition another good option as "battle caster" are Warrior Bards. The normal access of bards to light armor already gives them a good AC and have proficiency in martial weapons too. Composition Spell buffs allows you to have a good boost in AC (Inspire Defense) and helps the rest of the party at same time while you can boost you hits with Bless spell (and from closer allies). Also Occult spells gives you access to True Strike allowing a fantastic Strike chance and better critical chance (specially if used with Bless/Inspire Courage) the only problem is that you don't have much options to increase your damage but you have more enemy alignment agnostic offensive spells, a good heal (Soothe), very efficient debuff spells (not only those from occult but also Dirge of Doom) and many good utility spells making it probably more versatile than a divine caster and a better buffer/debuffer.


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Personally, my favorite way to do this thematically is to play a fighter, ranger, or barbarian and take cleric dedication and grab spell casting.

For me it's much more the theme I envision than what the warpriest sub-class selection offers.


Warpriest is not a martial. They do get lots of defensive abilities, but their chassis barely get offensive aid (though there are several feats that help pursue the curve). They can emulate many of the roles martials fulfill, especially defensively, but their full casting uses up most of their budget. So in turn, one has to allot most feats to combat and most casting to martial buffs to contend. As many have pointed out, those buffs would better serve an actual martial...which is unsatisfying. Bigger trouble IMO is burning spell slots to become like a martial with a timer, and perhaps a turn or two delay, when one could just start as a martial (and as others have noted, MCD Cleric). One could reskin one's class, especially something like the Barbarian's Spirit Instinct, as some sort of "priest warrior" path for those not inherently skilled except by the blessings of their deity. Same mechanics of course, and likely more satisfying for those imagining a ferocious, frontline priest of war (or what a PF1 Warpriest looked like w/ buffs).

Okay, wait, maybe the biggest problem is meeting one's expectations of juggling casting competitively while fighting competitively while keeping one's font and save skills at peak too. Until there's a divine hybrid wavecaster (likely the former Inquisitor renamed), I think one should choose a lane based on what one wants to resort to in the tougher fights. Or simply accept that those spells give you a damn lot of breadth and utility, and that versatility had a cost. You may not be as competitive in specifics, but you're viable enough you can adapt to many more situations. Example, you won't drop as good an AoE as the blaster, but when there's a horde, your AoE certainly beats the martials' (unless they have Ki Blast or Dragon's Rage Breath or...um, yeah.)

Reminds me of the maxim of wanting something done fast, well, or cheap; choose two. Same for a Warpriest's many options. Which do you sideline?

---
As for Channel Smite, the whole point is that you're substituting "attack vs. AC" for "spell save vs. Fort". The former is easier to buff, especially with flanking & True Strike (vs. bosses), at the risk of doing no damage. But yeah, it's a situational option, though it does allow those w/ lower Wis to load up some offensive magic. And if one has a smaller weapon die, one can make up for that too.

And of course you can Cast Down even with a mediocre Wisdom. You only need to do 1 point of damage to auto-Trip even the largest foe. That's pretty amazing IMO because 1st level Harms/Heals can do that, except perhaps vs. Trolls & bosses who'd often crit succeed. If you have a strong basic Strike, it might be worth picking up AoO (most likely through MCD Fighter), though setting up your allies might be enough already.


I think both playstyles are valid.

Wis focused has better

Perception
Will saves
Spell saves/hit
Religion checks

Cha focused has

Better social skills (intimidation,bon mot, feint, depending what you go for)
More uses of heal/harm per day

For me it's kind of a wash. But at level 1 I find those 2-3 extra slots of heal to be huge at early levels.

I also tend to get personal value from social skills even out of combat.

Divine has a ton of strong utility and buff options. So I don't really feel limited. I also have a good damage supplement in my third action or I can buff it to do even better damage if I have nothing else to go for.

Channel smite is great. But it's one feat. It's an option. Not your every round.

Emblazon armament and energy, align weapon feat line, prayer touched weapon, divine weapon, zeal focus spell, magic weapon, true strike.

I do feel Cha focused supes up your ability to self sustain and sustain your team at early levels.

As for high levels and cloistered cleric. It absolutely works as well. But I can spend pretty much every cleric feat, along with human level 1 feat option. To take something that helps my strikes, either directly or indirectly. And I don't really want to sacrifice that.

Obviously this is easier with free archetype. But with fa I find myself going champion with warpriest for more focus points, and a nice proactive reaction and heavy armor.

Cloistered gets close, and has better spell DC. But I do not feel it actually replaces the warpriest. At being a warpriest.

I was pretty dismayed at first at the class. Now I find it fantastic.

Biggest benefit of channel smite is that it doesn't provoke reactions. Makes every magus jealous


Atalius wrote:
My Goodness, so some of you are saying even literally with 4 actions per round (free haste) he still has his issues? Smh that's kind of sad.

That is more a limitation of Haste and the fact that it doesn't change how MAP works.

In PF1, Haste would give you an additional attack at your best bonus of a full attack. In PF2 it gives you an additional Strike at your worst bonus of the round. Though you can also use it to do an extra Stride in cases where that is useful.

Sovereign Court

As another zany variant: magus with cleric multiclass. You get middle of the road martial to-hit and armor proficiencies, which is better than war priest. Your casting doesn't rely as heavily on casting stats for accuracy, so a middling wisdom and intelligence are good enough.

EDIT: this might be the blueprint for my next Conrasu "druid".


I've been number crunching and while it's subject to enemy type.

In the right campaign they basically rival average damage is a giant instinct barbarian. Without channel smite..

All you have to do is cast a spell before you swing to proc prayer touched and divine weapon.

Take a weapon siphon attachment to trigger weaknesses

Hey the zeal domain spell for an extra option


Martialmasters wrote:
All you have to do is cast a spell before you swing to proc prayer touched and divine weapon.

I don't think you can use both from the same spell. You'd need to cast two spells to activate them both on the same turn.


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Prayer-Touched Weapon doesn't technically have a trigger - but it certainly feels like that type of action.

So I am not sure that it technically violates the letter of the law for Limitations on Triggers, but it definitely breaks the spirit of the law.


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Even without a trigger, Divine Weapon is a free action, not a passive effect. So if you use it immediately after finishing your spell, you no longer fulfill Prayer Touched's requirement of "Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip divine spell." And vice versa, of course.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

As another zany variant: magus with cleric multiclass. You get middle of the road martial to-hit and armor proficiencies, which is better than war priest. Your casting doesn't rely as heavily on casting stats for accuracy, so a middling wisdom and intelligence are good enough.

EDIT: this might be the blueprint for my next Conrasu "druid".

That would be cool for a Nethys war priest.


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Blave wrote:
Even without a trigger, Divine Weapon is a free action, not a passive effect. So if you use it immediately after finishing your spell, you no longer fulfill Prayer Touched's requirement of "Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip divine spell." And vice versa, of course.

To my knowledge the only limitation in free actions are if two have the same trigger, you pick one, prayer touched has no trigger. So it stacks.


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Martialmasters wrote:
Blave wrote:
Even without a trigger, Divine Weapon is a free action, not a passive effect. So if you use it immediately after finishing your spell, you no longer fulfill Prayer Touched's requirement of "Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip divine spell." And vice versa, of course.
To my knowledge the only limitation in free actions are if two have the same trigger, you pick one, prayer touched has no trigger. So it stacks.

Do both feats use the "most recent action" phrasing?

That's what Blave's getting at.

Either way, not seeing (yet) how this build outperforms top martials who'll Strike more often and/or maneuver better plus get better Weapon Specialization, possibly superior Reactions. And who'll tune their weapons for any specialized campaigns.


Castilliano wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Blave wrote:
Even without a trigger, Divine Weapon is a free action, not a passive effect. So if you use it immediately after finishing your spell, you no longer fulfill Prayer Touched's requirement of "Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip divine spell." And vice versa, of course.
To my knowledge the only limitation in free actions are if two have the same trigger, you pick one, prayer touched has no trigger. So it stacks.

Do both feats use the "most recent action" phrasing?

That's what Blave's getting at.

Either way, not seeing (yet) how this build outperforms top martials who'll Strike more often and/or maneuver better plus get better Weapon Specialization, possibly superior Reactions. And who'll tune their weapons for any specialized campaigns.

Who stated that the goal or expectation is to out dpr martials? Especially while maintaining a full spell list?


Martialmasters wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Blave wrote:
Even without a trigger, Divine Weapon is a free action, not a passive effect. So if you use it immediately after finishing your spell, you no longer fulfill Prayer Touched's requirement of "Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip divine spell." And vice versa, of course.
To my knowledge the only limitation in free actions are if two have the same trigger, you pick one, prayer touched has no trigger. So it stacks.

Do both feats use the "most recent action" phrasing?

That's what Blave's getting at.

Either way, not seeing (yet) how this build outperforms top martials who'll Strike more often and/or maneuver better plus get better Weapon Specialization, possibly superior Reactions. And who'll tune their weapons for any specialized campaigns.

Who stated that the goal or expectation is to out dpr martials? Especially while maintaining a full spell list?

I'm referencing this from you:

"In the right campaign they basically rival average damage is a giant instinct barbarian. Without channel smite.."
That's what I'm not seeing because yes, I agree it would be odd to have the goal or expectation to rival martials & maintain full casting.


That was just in the right moment. The creature your fighting is evil undead and you had cast a spell. The collective dice on that strike equals to nearly the same average damage.


Blave wrote:

I still can't wrap my head around going all charisma on a Warpriest. Are two more spell slots really worth screwing half your spell list?

When thinking about an "optimized" Warpriest*, I'd assume I get heavy armor from somewhere. So my abilities are either 16, 10, 12, 10, 18, 12 or 16, 10, 12, 10, 12, 16, yes?

The extra Charisma makes Intimidate a better option and grants 2 more Font slots. The latter is a good bonus early on but seems largely irrelevant at mid to high levels.

And in exchange for that I take a massive hit to my spellcasting. No Chill Touch + Strike. No Cast Down + Strike. No Couteract spells. No Spiritual Weapon/Guardians as cheap ongoing ranged option. No double (or tripple) Harm if I need to get rid of an enemy right now.

I know the warpriest has stunted spellcasting proficiency, which is bad. But ignoring Wisdom on top of that just makes such a huge part of the spell list borderline unusable. Max Wis at least keeps the Spell DC at about the same number as martial's class DCs and those seem to work well enough, no?

Even Channel Smite doesn't seem like a good enough reason to go max Charisma. Does it actually deal more damage on average than just doing Strike + Harm? (Assuming max Wis for the latter, of course) And of course you can still grab Channel Smite even on a max Wis Warpriest.

*If I really wanted to go full optimization I'd go Lizardfolk, of course. Str 16, Wis 18, Cha 14 is a very good ability spread to start a Warpriest on. Too bad we have literally no other ancestry that can pull this off. We need more 2 boost/1 flaw ancestries that come with Strength! (Why are nearly half of all ancestries Dex-Based anyway?!?)

The way my player (level 8 in Abomination Vaults) has done it is by basically not relying on offensive barring very specific situations. He uses Heroism if he can prebuff, and otherwise mostly uses:

Heal
Strike
True Strike
Channel Smite
Marshall's Aura
Snap out of it!
An occasional Demoralize to set up Dread Strike
Fairie Fire

You'd be surprised how far that combat routine gets you. It helps that he's swinging a d12 weapon, so his damage is actually really good. He also triggers weakness a lot with good or positive damage from his feats. He's basically either swinging his axe for huge damage or healing off a huge amount of damage nearly every turn.

Counteracting hasn't been a huge problem. He isn't preparing Dispel Magic, so usually he's only counteracting on days where they take a break to Remove Curses or what have you, at which point he's likely prepares the spell multiple times.

Now some of his consistently impressive output is owed to the lack of time pressure in Abomination Vaults, but time pressure is the exception in Paizo APs, not the norm.

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