|
I'm curious, is dropping and empty gun and drawing a new, loaded gun a tactic that is used in play?
The brace of pistols is a historic example, the "Matrix Reload" a fictional one.
If the character has Quickdraw I can see this as a more efficient reload.
The issue is that quickly becomes cost prohibitive. Players, NEED striking weapons to keep up with enemy hitpoints, and so having two weapons with up-to-date-runes is just about what most people can afford. Remember, you also need armor and other knicknacks depending on your build (like boots of tumbling for a swashbuckler, or a crafter's eyepiece for an inventor) So having three guns or other crossbows with enough striking runes to be worth a darn is . . . pretty tough at higher levels.
Most parties sell excess magical weapons so that they can afford to get the next rune in the set (i.e. upgrading a +1 to a +2)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm curious, is dropping and empty gun and drawing a new, loaded gun a tactic that is used in play?
The brace of pistols is a historic example, the "Matrix Reload" a fictional one.
If the character has Quickdraw I can see this as a more efficient reload.The issue is that quickly becomes cost prohibitive. Players, NEED striking weapons to keep up with enemy hitpoints, and so having two weapons with up-to-date-runes is just about what most people can afford. Remember, you also need armor and other knicknacks depending on your build (like boots of tumbling for a swashbuckler, or a crafter's eyepiece for an inventor) So having three guns or other crossbows with enough striking runes to be worth a darn is . . . pretty tough at higher levels.
Most parties sell excess magical weapons so that they can afford to get the next rune in the set (i.e. upgrading a +1 to a +2)
You use a Gunner's Bandolier: it allows for a brace of 4 1-handed guns to use the same runes. It takes an extra action to empower/draw them so it's not an action saver.
Hypothetically the use of the Gunner's Bandolier is that it would let you use guns with different stats for different situations, but there's not a lot of variety among things that would qualify (I wouldn't let someone strap a jezail to a bandolier personally).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hypothetically the use of the Gunner's Bandolier is that it would let you use guns with different stats for different situations, but there's not a lot of variety among things that would qualify (I wouldn't let someone strap a jezail to a bandolier personally).
Heck, you could put 4 Sukgung in there! It's like the Thrower's Bandolier being able to hold 20 javelins, starknives and/or filcher forks. The mental image can be silly, but it's a magic item after all so it could do things a normal bandolier can't.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You use a Gunner's Bandolier: it allows for a brace of 4 1-handed guns to use the same runes. It takes an extra action to empower/draw them so it's not an action saver.I'm curious, is dropping and empty gun and drawing a new, loaded gun a tactic that is used in play?
The brace of pistols is a historic example, the "Matrix Reload" a fictional one.
If the character has Quickdraw I can see this as a more efficient reload.The issue is that quickly becomes cost prohibitive. Players, NEED striking weapons to keep up with enemy hitpoints, and so having two weapons with up-to-date-runes is just about what most people can afford. Remember, you also need armor and other knicknacks depending on your build (like boots of tumbling for a swashbuckler, or a crafter's eyepiece for an inventor) So having three guns or other crossbows with enough striking runes to be worth a darn is . . . pretty tough at higher levels.
Most parties sell excess magical weapons so that they can afford to get the next rune in the set (i.e. upgrading a +1 to a +2)
I played a character that used the bandolier to spam risky reload without fear of misfiring. The campaign switched to ABP halfway through but before then it was pretty good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah that's basically what I mean, ABP removed the need for the gunner's bandolier by just making the tactic viable without it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hypothetically the use of the Gunner's Bandolier is that it would let you use guns with different stats for different situations, but there's not a lot of variety among things that would qualify (I wouldn't let someone strap a jezail to a bandolier personally).
Dueling Pistol/Clan Pistol as your main weapon.
Dragon Pistol if you're dealing with swarms.
Hand Cannon/Big Boom Gun if you're fighting an enemy with a slashing or bludgeoning weakness.
Hand Crossbow if you're fighting in the rain/underwater.
Four different kinds of one-handed guns/crossbows for different situations.
Except that you can't put repeating weapons in the gunner's bandolier
This incredibly spacious bandolier can hold up to 4 one-handed crossbows or firearms that take no more than 1 action to completely reload (typically meaning that weapons with the capacity or repeating traits won't fit in the bandolier's holsters).
Which is just silly IMO: it'll fit 4 Piercing Winds, fire lance or Big Boom Guns but a repeating hand crossbow, Air Repeater, Double-Barreled Pistol or Pepperbox... I don't think fitting is the issue.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Bola is an amazing addition for a number of characters, being able to trip at 20ft. range is remarkable for anyone that's invested into Athletics outside of *very* specialized builds (like Giant Instinct Barbarian or Fighter with Lunge, both wielding something like a Guisarme or using a Hooked rune), and even then those don't quite reach the same distance in most cases.
On the other hand, it would make Assurance (Athletics) even stronger in combat as the feat specifically states you don't apply penalties or bonuses to the check. This is something I feel I'll definitely see a lot in our game, since both our Wolf Stance Monk and my double-hander Fighter value the Trip maneuver immensely.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think these are all of the weapons that work with the Gunner's Bandolier.
Common Ranged
• Hand Crossbow
Uncommon Ranged
• Coat Pistol
• Flintlock Pistol
• Hand Cannon
Common Ranged
• Sukgung
Uncommon Ranged
• Big Boom Gun
• Clan Pistol
• Dragon Mouth Pistol
• Dueling Pistol
• Jezail
• Piercing Wind
• Spoon Gun
• Triggerbrand
Uncommon Combination
• Black Powder Knuckle Dusters
• Cane Pistol
• Dagger Pistol
• Rapier Pistol
Thanks for catching that! Firearms aren't really my thing.
Common Ranged
• Hand Crossbow
Uncommon Ranged
• Coat Pistol
• Flintlock Pistol
• Hand Cannon
Common Ranged
• Sukgung
Uncommon Ranged
• Big Boom Gun
• Clan Pistol
• Dragon Mouth Pistol
• Dueling Pistol
• Jezail
• Spoon Gun
Uncommon Combination
• Black Powder Knuckle Dusters
• Cane Pistol
• Dagger Pistol
• Piercing Wind
• Rapier Pistol
• Triggerbrand
I have numbers question about the Bola, one that applies to other Athletics based maneuvers.
Can a character that has little or no investment in Strength expect to successfully Trip or Grapple a level appropriate foe?
I have asked similar questions elsewhere, I'm just soliciting more opinions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hilariously enough, while you can't use the gunners bandolier as an action fix, you can put dagger or cane pistols into the Throwers bandolier and then Quickdraw them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have numbers question about the Bola, one that applies to other Athletics based maneuvers.
Can a character that has little or no investment in Strength expect to successfully Trip or Grapple a level appropriate foe?I have asked similar questions elsewhere, I'm just soliciting more opinions.
Investigators with Athletic Strategist can use Int in place of Str. Otherwise your best bet is likely Assurance(Athletics).
I have tables showing the results of using Assurance at the different proficiency levels in case you'd like to see the numbers.
I have numbers question about the Bola, one that applies to other Athletics based maneuvers.
Can a character that has little or no investment in Strength expect to successfully Trip or Grapple a level appropriate foe?I have asked similar questions elsewhere, I'm just soliciting more opinions.
LOL Kind of like asking if you can hit with a ranged weapon without dex.
You can manage if you aim for the correct targets, take Assurance and keep your proficiency maxed. for instance, you toss a bola at an Anadi Fateweaver 5th level with a REF of +9 and you are 5th with expert in Athletics and Assurance for a +9: this means every time you toss that bola at it, it's tripped. Or Animated Armor [level 2, Ref +3] and you'd have a +4. Or a Bog Mummy [level 5, Ref +9] and you'd have a +9.
Hilariously enough, while you can't use the gunners bandolier as an action fix, you can put dagger or cane pistols into the Throwers bandolier and then Quickdraw them.
Yes, that's true. Here are my weapon tables for the Thrower's Bandolier.
|
|
COMMON AND UNCOMMON ADVANCED RANGED
Phalanx Piercer What gets me isn't the razing quality, it is the concussive, which is just a great quality, and the Phalanx Piercer is the only non-firearm with it. The downside here is that the draw is so heavy it has a reload of 1, which is going to really put a dent in rapid-shot builds. Plus the Volley 30. Honestly, I think this would be good for an investagator, or precision ranger who goes into Archer. . . . someone who does a large amount of damage 1/round. If you can fix it, a rogue might be able to do well with this assuming they could find a reliable way to make enemies flat footed.
(If you are wondering, HOBGOBLIN WEAPON FAMILIARITY makes this count as a MARTIAL weapon, and the ARCHER archetype makes you proficient in all martial bows).
Barricade Buster One of the biggest magazines we've seen for a gun, that alone might be worth picking it up. Sadly not concusive or deadly or fatal, but the d10 damage die isn't bad at all. Flurry ranger might work well with this gun, but then again, fighter can get point blank stance to mitigate the volley trait.
Taw Launcher I have to admit, I like this one. d10 crossbow with reload 1, and it is modular P/B/S. This is fantastic as ranged weapon users rarely get the opportunity to do a damage type other than piercing. And deadly d10 is a cherry on top. Make a crossbow-wielding gunslinger who uses this, either by being a Conrasu or with unconventional weaponry and just go to town. Maybe even pick up a reinforced stock in case you get into melee. No complaints here.
Alright, nearing the final stretch! Just the Combo weapons to go!
LOL Kind of like asking if you can hit with a ranged weapon without dex.
I was given to understand that skill proficiency advance faster than weapons proficiency, plus Athletics targets something other than AC.
Lots of moving parts.Gishers Assurance Guide won't display for me, at least not on my phone, but it seems likely that it will be helpful.
Gishers Assurance Guide won't display for me, at least not on my phone, but it seems likely that it will be helpful.
It's a Google doc. You might need an app for those to see it on your phone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was given to understand that skill proficiency advance faster than weapons proficiency, plus Athletics targets something other than AC.
What I meant by that is that against the right target, it can work: for instance, someone with a dex bonus of 0 and a ranged weapon has a pretty good shot of hitting your average ooze. Same thing with Athletics and low Str: if you pick the right targets, it can work.
Gishers Assurance Guide won't display for me, at least not on my phone, but it seems likely that it will be helpful.It's a Google doc. You might need an app for those to see it on your phone.
The Throwers Bandoleer Options works fine, the Assurance Guide is all blurred out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was given to understand that skill proficiency advance faster than weapons proficiency, plus Athletics targets something other than AC.What I meant by that is that against the right target, it can work: for instance, someone with a dex bonus of 0 and a ranged weapon has a pretty good shot of hitting your average ooze. Same thing with Athletics and low Str: if you pick the right targets, it can work.
There are some pretty notable examples where this works even on same-level targets; giants have comically bad reflex saves and can be assurance tripped very easily. Plus just being able to focus damage on a boss with your first and second action and then CC'ing a minion with your third is always great.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The document works fine on a computer, so I took a look at the Archives.
13 beats all 1st, second and third level creatures, and all but 19 of 4th level creatures.
This makes Assurance:Athletics seem like a really great choice.
|
|
Entering the Final batch!
Bow Staff My new favorite weapon out of the book. This sucker is almost perfect for such a wide application of builds it isn't even funny. What makes it so good is that it is a finesse weapon combined with a ranged weapon, and both share runes. Investigators can switch between ranged and melee options, both using dex to hit, and both benefiting from investigating. The only real downside is that the bow isn't propulsive (no adding 1/2 strength to damage) and that the whipstaff looses agile, but really, that's not a bad deal. Investigtors, swashbucklers, rangers, dex fighters, and rogues (if they can get the proficiency) would all benefit from this guy. And parry too!? Mwa, cherry on top.
Crecent Cross As opposed to the Bow Staff, the Crecent Cross is a real let down. A three-shot d6 crossbow combined with a knife. . . you might as well use the gauntlet bow, which is better in almost every way (crossbow does a bit more damage, but that's about it.) Really don't understand the use of this guy.
Lancer Seems like a good idea on paper, a lance combined with a crossbow. Gives your mounted lancer a couple of ranged options while still having a shield and a lance handy. Except the dang thing doesn't have Jousting! Making it useless as a lance. You literally cannot use this 'lance' to run around and lance from horseback? That just turns it into a d6 reach weapon that has a crossbow on it. Okay I guess but not what it is advertised as. Would be worth it if it had, say, Jousting d2 (just enough to give it the ability to be wielded 1 handed while mounted) and a special rule saying the crossbow could be fired one-handed if mounted.
Mikazuki A strange thing, it is a three section staff that turns into a bow. Might be nice for strength-dex characters like switch hitting rangers if it wasn't for one thing . . . reload 1. WHY?! The Bow staff has reload 0 and deadly d8 instead of propulsive, why make this one reload 1? I would say just eat the lack of 1/2 strength to damage and just go for a bow staff. It has a better range, reload 0, and all the other abilities are roughly comparable. A max of 3 extra damage at max strength isn't worth it.
UNCOMMON COMBO WEAPONS
Wrecker I can't imagine lugging a 2 bulk spiked wrecking ball on one hand for the whole day, but I guess that's what Dwarves are known for. Regardless of it being mounted on a glove, it is a 2 handed weapon (I assume the other hand grabs the chain) which makes it a decent Dwarven switch-hitting weapon. D8 reach on the melee (with the flail crit specialization) and d6 emergency ranged option that goes out 20 feet. Note that the wrecker doesn't have the 'teathered' trait . . . though the description implies that it does because it says a spool reels in the chain so . . . I dunno what to day. Giving it teathered makes sense to me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Entering the Final batch!
Bow Staff My new favorite weapon out of the book.
...
Mine, too!
And since it's has the monk trait, the classes that don't have martial weapon proficiency can get scaling proficiency with it through Monk Dedication -> Monastic Weaponry.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Entering the Final batch!
Bow Staff My new favorite weapon out of the book.
...Mine, too!
And since it's has the monk trait, the classes that don't have martial weapon proficiency can get scaling proficiency with it through Monk Dedication -> Monastic Weaponry.
And it doesn't hurt that you can eventually take Flurry of Blows too.
And it doesn't hurt that you can eventually take Flurry of Blows too.Entering the Final batch!
Bow Staff My new favorite weapon out of the book.
...Mine, too!
And since it's has the monk trait, the classes that don't have martial weapon proficiency can get scaling proficiency with it through Monk Dedication -> Monastic Weaponry.
Ki Strike and Monastic Archer Stance would also be on my list.
|
Design Manager
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Note that the wrecker doesn't have the 'teathered' trait . . . though the description implies that it does because it says a spool reels in the chain so . . . I dunno what to day. Giving it teathered makes sense to me.
It doesn't have tethered because it does have reload. If you have a dwarven ranger (or remarkably ambitious halfling fighter possibly raised by dwarves) and you want to hit one distant enemy at range and then position yourself for reaction attacks with your melee reach, tethered doesn't do what you'd want to make the action economy feasible.
So the dwarven ranger with a wrecker can go-
Ranged Strike > Running Reload > Melee Config in 3 actions and be set up to use Disrupt Prey, but tethered is only going to give you- Ranged Strike > Tether > Melee Config; no room to tactically reposition (such as if you're in an ambush situation with enemies on opposite sides of the battle space). PF2 is a very cinematic game and managing the flow of a mechanic so that it can tell its story is one of those things we try very hard to do.
Tethered also kind of speaks to a different mental picture than reloading, in that imagining trying to reel in a harpoon while moving is much weirder than the chain on a clockwork device respooling while moving, so the kinds of feat support you might use to tell the story for each are likely to be pretty different, especially as the ecosystem continues to grow. If it was tethered it also probably wouldn't be a combination weapon, just a thrown flail, and then you wouldn't get the play space of being able to have your choice of e.g. flail and sling crit specs sitting on one set of runes.
Just noticed - the spraysling (and other scatter/splash weapons) have particular value for the thaumaturge. Mortal Weakness applies to all damage using that weapon against creatures of exactly the same type - which means that if there's more than one of them, and they're packed close, then you can get that extra damage on your splash pings as well.
Technically, they gain a weakness to your strikes specifically. Not necessarily all damage. A GM could rule that weakness doesn't apply to targets you didn't strike.
"Your unarmed and weapon Strikes activate the highest weakness you discovered with Exploit Vulnerability, even though the damage type your weapon deals doesn't change. This damage affects the target of your Exploit Vulnerability, as well as any other creatures of the exact same type, but not other creatures with the same weakness."
Splash damage is still damage from one of your strikes. You generate a strike, and that strike generates damage, some of which applies to entities other than the direct target. A GM could rule otherwise, but GMs can rule all sorts of things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A reasonable extrapolation from a ruling like that could end up adding sneak attack dice to splash damage as well
Don't agree. Weakness and Sneak Attack work fundamentally differently enough, there's no real overlap here. There's no real way to read sneak attack as adding to splash damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From the perspective of a class ability that applies to strikes, it's similar enough. My point is that it's just as much of a stretch because there's no practical difference between the wording as it relates to striking specifically.A reasonable extrapolation from a ruling like that could end up adding sneak attack dice to splash damage as wellDon't agree. Weakness and Sneak Attack work fundamentally differently enough, there's no real overlap here. There's no real way to read sneak attack as adding to splash damage.
No... because there are actual rules that state that additional damage features only apply to the direct target of the strike. By contrast, the thaumaturge feature isn't adding damage directly, it's causing the strike to trigger a weakness, and weaknesses still trigger just fine on splash damage.
(I'd had such high hopes for my barbarian bomber build.)
Crecent Cross As opposed to the Bow Staff, the Crecent Cross is a real let down. A three-shot d6 crossbow combined with a knife. . . you might as well use the gauntlet bow, which is better in almost every way (crossbow does a bit more damage, but that's about it.) Really don't understand the use of this guy.
Outside of a weapon innovation for an inventor, crescent cross is probably not that good of a choice. Even then it takes until level 8 to be worthwhile, IMO (segmented frame as the level 1 modification [could flavor it as a weird-looking gauntlet when in collapsed form], integrated gauntlet as the level 7 modification [to gain the free hand trait], and Manifold Modifications at level 8 to add the blunt shot modification).
Although the gauntlet bow "can be used to make melee attacks like a standard gauntlet" it lacks the combination trait and does not share runes between the crossbow and the gauntlet (which becomes an issue pretty quickly).
As mentioned however, the bow staff is generally a superior weapon (even for an inventor). The bleed effect from the knife critical specialization might be more useful than the up to 10 feet of forced movement from the club critical specialization, but that's about the only advantage for the crescent cross.