If Enchantment spells were real, what is your personal take on them if someone were capable of casting Enchantment spells in real life? Just from the Sor/Wiz list.
Morally speaking, would a hypothetical caster be more likely to be corrupted by such power? Or can such magic be used to better aid in the "correction" of activities and behaviours of criminals.
I guess one question to ask in such a scenario would be to establish how common such an ability would be? Does everyone have it? or only like 1% of your population? If only your 1% then it would give rise to politicians, warlords, powerful drug dealers, etc being the ones who possessed such spell casting.
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If enchantment spells were real, it would sour the perception of all people who were capable of casting spells and lead to all manner of persecution and hunting down of said people. There are very few things that terrify people more than the possibility that they could have their autonomy and free will overpowered, taken from them.
Personally, I react negatively to any kind of manipulation, emotional or otherwise. Someone having the power to force the issue and the willingness to use it on others would infuriate me. Even on people we would consider entirely evil and in sore need of rehabilitation, I would object strongly. I'd prefer a permanent end to their existence on this mortal plane than an essential overwrite of their free will.
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The possibility that someone could control your very thoughts may be terrifying… but I think it largely depends on what all other magics exist, how large spread access to magic is, and how informed the population is of magic…
If most people don’t even know magic is a real thing, then public opinion wouldn’t really be much different than it is now… however we’d see a lot more news reports of people manipulated into committing violent crimes as well as change of heart stories… we’d simultaneously see the best and worst of enchantments and be none-the-wiser.
If people know of its existence but access is rare… people will be terrified of it. Knowing that any random person you meet could be one of the random few who can use this power is terrifying. Everyone would be guarded against everyone for fear that their thoughts may no longer be their own.
If magic is wide spread and all schools exist, then people might not be as terrified of enchantment as you might think… there are far more terrifying things that can be done with other schools of magic. Evocation can destroy entire towns in the blink of an eye. Conjuration can summon nightmarish entities from other dimensions that are completely subservient to their summoner. Necromancy can literally make the dead rise up and walk. Divination can allow anyone to see and know everything that you or anyone else is doing at all times. Illusion may in fact be the most terrifying school in reality…. Illusions can make you see or hear things that aren’t there, not see or hear things that actually are there, trap you in your own nightmares, and make you do horrible things of your own volition while believing you are doing something else. Worst yet, Shadow Illusions can also do everything evocation, conjuration, and enchantment can. The possibility that someone might be able to control your thoughts seems so minor in comparison. Besides with access to Abjuration magic, obtaining wards agains Enchantment is an easily attainable thing.
It is very seldom that brainwashing ever comes off as noble or righteous... in literally every form of media, from almost any culture, every mention of such charms are negative... the person, or persons, doing the brainwashing are almost universally seen as the "bad guys".
And, personally, it disgusts me. The very thought of it makes my skin crawl and my blood boil. I would remove such persons from my life, and discourage my family from associating with, or becoming, enchanters. I would invest in learning or otherwise obtaining all sorts of protections from enchantments, as well as ways to identify if others are under enchantments. I would ward me and mine against charms to best of my ability.
Charms will always get an immediate and severe reaction from me... no matter the "cause". I would rather you torture a terrorist for information than brainwash them. Yeah, I am THAT against enchantments. I don't use them for my characters, I rarely use them from my enemy NPC's, I don't trust characters that use them even if they are in my party, and I kind of don't even trust the players that have characters using charms. I am completely, 100% against brainwashing in every form.
Like, scry on me in my most private or embarassing moments, I don't care. You can make armies of Undead, again, I don't care. But if you are casting charms... we gots problems.
What level of spell casters are we talking about? If they're level 1, then the damage they could do would be limited. Yes, they could charm a rich guy or someone with political power, but charm spells don't remove agency. They'd be glad to see you and might let you into a party, but a person with integrity isn't going to bend to your will.
Charm person doesn't last long, about 1 hour per level. You might be able to use it to get a good first impression, but don't hang around too long. They might remember you casting a spell when you two first met, or a few hours later they might notice that you are not as charming as you were earlier.
On the other hand, dominate person lasts days and you can make the target to do just about anything. Commands can be sent telepathically. The weak point though is that if you're going to keep control over them, you will need meet them in person to recast your spells. They also don't act the same, so its easier for someone to use sense motive to see if something is wrong.
Most of what the mind control spells can do are things that can be done manually but done with a much faster time period. So, the issue is not so much being able to control minds, but how easy it is to do so.
Take the Charm spell for example. All that spell does is make it so that the target becomes friendly towards you. The mundane equivalent is to get on friendly terms with someone. So, the issue with Charm spell, is that you can skip the work to make someone your friend.
Spells like Dominate are more of an issue because you can actually control creatures. But the spell is so restricted that in practice it's no different from blackmailing without any material with the same caveat: You only get as much as the target is willing to do before they break out.
By comparison the divination spells can be a lot more problematic because they will give you direct blackmailing material. Which mundane forms of manipulation have the advantage in that they cannot be dispelled, even if it does require more work to execute.
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Enchantment spells are likely not that corrupting given how they are often just accelerated forms of normal manipulations. Morally gray adventurers would definitely use it again enemies because it means less chances to die themselves.
Obviously if you do evil things with the spell your alignment would start going towards evil. The same as any other spell.
Enchantment magic is dangerous and should be regulated on par with other mind altering substances. To point, no one needs access to this stuff. The ability to dominate someone's will serves no common purpose and the use of it on someone should be akin to assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder.
It would have to follow something like the Drug Schedule. Dominate is a Schedule 1 Enchantment. Some stuff might have uses in lieu of things like torture or interrogation, but only with court sanctioned approval. You would need a warrant to coerce testimony under Abadar's Truth telling since in America, but I'm already wary of the constitutional implications.
Of course, since it exists, it would be used by the rich and powerful to do whatever they want and the poors of the world would be nothing but its victims. The rich can afford constant Protection from Evil or Rings of Mind Shielding and the poor are just enslaved into chattel.
All those people arguing against The Spell Emanations FAQ would change their tune when its their mind being turned into putty with a Reach Dominate Person in the middle of a busy intersection.
Its the end of traditional political dynamics and the beginning of the Magiocracy. Given enough attempts, a person will fail their will save.
Inevitable, really.
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There are plenty of enchantment spells that do not violate autonomy or infringe on free will: prayer, bless, heroism, good hope, the assorted blessing of X spells, contagious zeal, aid, and lots more. But those are never the ones that people mean when they ask a question like this.
Kasoh wrote: Enchantment magic is dangerous and should be regulated on par with other mind altering substances. To point, no one needs access to this stuff. The ability to dominate someone's will serves no common purpose and the use of it on someone should be akin to assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder.
It would have to follow something like the Drug Schedule. Dominate is a Schedule 1 Enchantment. Some stuff might have uses in lieu of things like torture or interrogation, but only with court sanctioned approval. You would need a warrant to coerce testimony under Abadar's Truth telling since in America, but I'm already wary of the constitutional implications.
Of course, since it exists, it would be used by the rich and powerful to do whatever they want and the poors of the world would be nothing but its victims. The rich can afford constant Protection from Evil or Rings of Mind Shielding and the poor are just enslaved into chattel.
All those people arguing against The Spell Emanations FAQ would change their tune when its their mind being turned into putty with a Reach Dominate Person in the middle of a busy intersection.
Its the end of traditional political dynamics and the beginning of the Magiocracy. Given enough attempts, a person will fail their will save.
Inevitable, really.
Don’t worry, I’m a licensed enchantre-therapist… these enchantments will simply help with psychiatric therapy process to achieve a breakthrough in the problems plaguing your psyche.
Also… regarding spell emanations… the FAQ simply said they all have them… it never really defined that they are all truly unique to each spell, let alone unique enough that just anyone could say “they cast the enchantment”… emanations simply mean that everyone around is capable of knowing that magic is being performed, only the educated who observe it can attempt to identify the spell though, which means in a busy street, someone who is simply casting mage hand or prestidigitation may be just as likely suspect as the real culprit who cast dominate. Magic was performed, this man was dominated, and you three were observed using magic near the scene of the crime. The more commonplace magic use is, the less likely anyone is to be able to identify suspects as well, it’d be like being told the suspect has brown hair and when 90% of the people at the location had brown hair.
Chell Raighn wrote: Kasoh wrote: Enchantment magic is dangerous and should be regulated on par with other mind altering substances. To point, no one needs access to this stuff. The ability to dominate someone's will serves no common purpose and the use of it on someone should be akin to assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder.
It would have to follow something like the Drug Schedule. Dominate is a Schedule 1 Enchantment. Some stuff might have uses in lieu of things like torture or interrogation, but only with court sanctioned approval. You would need a warrant to coerce testimony under Abadar's Truth telling since in America, but I'm already wary of the constitutional implications.
Of course, since it exists, it would be used by the rich and powerful to do whatever they want and the poors of the world would be nothing but its victims. The rich can afford constant Protection from Evil or Rings of Mind Shielding and the poor are just enslaved into chattel.
All those people arguing against The Spell Emanations FAQ would change their tune when its their mind being turned into putty with a Reach Dominate Person in the middle of a busy intersection.
Its the end of traditional political dynamics and the beginning of the Magiocracy. Given enough attempts, a person will fail their will save.
Inevitable, really.
Don’t worry, I’m a licensed enchantre-therapist… these enchantments will simply help with psychiatric therapy process to achieve a breakthrough in the problems plaguing your psyche.
Also… regarding spell emanations… the FAQ simply said they all have them… it never really defined that they are all truly unique to each spell, let alone unique enough that just anyone could say “they cast the enchantment”… emanations simply mean that everyone around is capable of knowing that magic is being performed, only the educated who observe it can attempt to identify the spell though, which means in a busy street, someone who is simply casting... Yep. Anyone can see magic was cast. But only people who were there can use spellcraft to identify. Only people who use detect magic and have high knowledge arcana would know what school and where a spell was cast, and only if the spell is strong enough to leave a trace in the first place.
I was thinking on this more today... and I've come to the conclusion, that a world where magic is common place would actually be one of the safest worlds in regards to use of enchantments. Dangerous spells like Dominate Person would be well known spells that everyone would be taught about. Spells like that would be known as Forbidden Spells, and everyone would know how to identify them. Because of this, use of them in public would be rare, those who use them in public would be easily identified, and to dissuade anyone from attempting to use them they would have a hefty punishment for simply being found to cast one even once. A perfect example of this in action is actually the world of Harry Potter... The Unforgivable Curses are so well known to wizards that even the muggleborn Hermione could easily identify all of them when asked. Children are taught about them and how to identify them as part of their basic magic schooling. This is the type of behavior you can expect in any society where magic is common. Everyone should and would be taught to identify the most dangerous spells.
My point was simply that people are less likely to be for easy invisible casting when they're the ones having their will subverted. Mostly for the lols.
Dominate Person is a 4th level spell, so the minimum Spellcraft to ID is 19. 1 Rank, average intelligence, not everyone has it as a class skill... its a hard DC for the average person, even if they know that the spell exists. Then again, it depends on how magic is codified and interacts in a reality that isn't based on a game. So...<Throws hands up in air>
Not everyone being able to easily identify it is fine since you can still see the effect of the spell by people suddenly behaving weirdly. Using an IRL example. Not everyone know what the different makes and caliber size of firearms is. But they would still recognize "hey that person used a firearm". With spells it would be the same thing.
But yeah I agree. People would be up for easy invisible casting up until an enemy uses it. Then they would complain about how they should be able to see where the spell came from.
Lazlo.Arcadia wrote: I guess one question to ask in such a scenario would be to establish how common such an ability would be? Does everyone have it? or only like 1% of your population? If only your 1% then it would give rise to politicians, warlords, powerful drug dealers, etc being the ones who possessed such spell casting. Even less than that. Only 1 person in the world has magic, and only spells of the Enchantment school, limited to Sor/Wiz list.
OmniMage wrote: What level of spell casters are we talking about?... Hmm, for let's say max level 20, however only able to cast spells of the Enchantment school, limited to Sor/Wiz list only. However no WBL of any kind, just poof here you go level 20 and Wizard magic but limited to only 1 school.
Additionally let's say instead of some random person getting this power, how would you feel it you suddenly had it? As stated above, level 20 Wizard Enchantment Specialist, but only Enchantment spells. How do you think you would handle it?
Xarath wrote: OmniMage wrote: What level of spell casters are we talking about?... Hmm, for let's say max level 20, however only able to cast spells of the Enchantment school, limited to Sor/Wiz list only. However no WBL of any kind, just poof here you go level 20 and Wizard magic but limited to only 1 school.
Additionally let's say instead of some random person getting this power, how would you feel it you suddenly had it? As stated above, level 20 Wizard Enchantment Specialist, but only Enchantment spells. How do you think you would handle it? There are two adages.
Lord Acton's Axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely
Robert Caro: Power doesn't always corrupt. Power can cleanse. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals.
And I think I would handle it irresponsibly, terribly, and with the best of intentions.
Xarath wrote: OmniMage wrote: What level of spell casters are we talking about?... Hmm, for let's say max level 20, however only able to cast spells of the Enchantment school, limited to Sor/Wiz list only. However no WBL of any kind, just poof here you go level 20 and Wizard magic but limited to only 1 school.
Additionally let's say instead of some random person getting this power, how would you feel it you suddenly had it? As stated above, level 20 Wizard Enchantment Specialist, but only Enchantment spells. How do you think you would handle it? In my opinion, that spell list is so bad, that I'd probably just focus on my other abilities from getting to be a level 20 character and pretend I couldn't cast those spells.
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If you give a normal person weird powers comic books shows us that most people will use their powers, regardless of what the power is. Those same books tells us that its how you use the powers that matters.
Most spells released by Paizo were for the purpose of combat, defense from a combat action, or to serve a specific purpose a hero/villain needed. Meaning that if you could only cast enchantment spells, than you would have to make your own spells.
Personally, I would get the more passive/defensive spells as opposed to the mind control effects. Reason being that it would attract way too much attention, and it being weird.
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Having said that, it sounds like you are trying to get people to say that yes those spells would make people do bad stuff. Web novels and manga is popular, but that does not mean that the way isekai protagonists and villains in general act is how everyone would act.
(Specially true for the more questionable books).
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* P.S. Code Geas is a great anime, but not everyone is lelouch.
Out of all the schools of magic, Enchantment is probably one of the best to manipulate a modern world, setting aside conjuration as the best school of magic.
Presuming that in addition to your 20 levels of wizard you also have the appropriate spell DC boosting feats to make your specialization worth it, maybe a persistent, reach, and extend metamagic to choose, you can wreck a lot of havoc.
Especially if you are the only caster in the world. Some of these spells inflict level drain or have effects that can only be removed with magic from a school you don't even possess.
The gems of 1st level Enchantment are Keep Watch and Memorize Page for utility. Aphasia, Deja Vu, and Sleep for making people's lives miserable. A well timed Aphasia at a public speaking event for a political rival could start to ruin someone's public perception.
2nd level gives us Hidden Presence, Compulsive Liar, Heckle, Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Seducer's Eyes, and Unnatural Lust.
3rd: Aversion, Babble, Deflect Blame, Hold Person, Inflict Pain, Matchmaker, Suggestion, Unadulterated Loathing.
4th: Confusion, Forgetful Slumber, Lesser Geas, Malicious Spite, Mindwipe, Overwhelming Grief, Terrible Remorse.
The number of spells with durations of Days per level is starting to get up there.
5th Mass Charm Person, Dominate Person, Constricting Coils, Compelling Rant, Feeblemind, Mindfog.
6th Geas, Mindswap, Phobia, Mass Suggestion, Unconscious Agenda(Week per level!), Utter Contempt.
7th Crime Wave, Mass Hold Person, Mass Inflict Pain, Insanity, Lost Legacy, Power Word Blind, Pox of Rumors, Waves of Ecstacy
8th Irresistible Dance, Binding, Antipathy.
9th Power word Kill and Overwhelming Presence.
There's a band of spells in there that could be used to manipulate and seize control of any organization in a matter of days. Rivals would destroy themselves or be turned into blithering idiots and anyone who gets in your way becomes a thrall or a corpse.
Now, a lot of this does depend on the subjects in question failing saving throws, but there is one advantage Enchantment has in our world over Golarion's: You'll never really target a non humanoid creature and people with high will save bonuses are few and far between if we believe that old internet garbage that most people aren't higher than 5th level.
TBH (and as pointed out above) I don't think it would make a huge difference. Depending on the demographics of the society, the number of people capable of casting such spells would be very small. Just as in real life the number of people with outstanding charisma and/or exceptional social, psychological and social engineering/manipulation skills is small.
Depending on the motivations of the individual, their spell ability or social skills are likely to see them in a position of power and influence; which already happens.
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